Page 6 of 18 FirstFirst ...
4
5
6
7
8
16
... LastLast
  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Nutrition View Post
    It would mean gearing for raids would be the equivalent of running heroic 5 mans in tbc...

    It isn't a hard task to do a cap run.
    and therein lies the issue.


    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    It's close to nothing. Here's what we're talking about:

    Create outfits in Outfitter. At boss with ST mechanics? Choose ST outfit. On trash, need AOE? Press button to get AOE outfit.

    How compelling is that? Because that is what everyone is whining over.
    well to be fair it's more of a "last straw" kinda deal.

    where this change pushes people over the breaking point of all the other stupid, and downright horrendous changes, like GCD, personal loot, dumbed down class design

    it's a systematic evidence of taking away everything that gives players more options, and ways to express their skill.

    like seriously this expac had like 5 different changes that by themselves would raise some eyesbrows, but when piled together, then of course the community will be outraged.

    not to mention that they're doing every single one of these for all the wrong reasons.
    Last edited by shaunika123; 2018-06-25 at 09:43 PM.

  2. #102
    Old God Kathranis's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Austin, Texas
    Posts
    10,074
    It's pretty simple to understand that reasoning.

    If players are going to just macro hotswap gear sets and talents between every pull, why have gear sets or talents at all? Why not just give players every tool baseline?

    It just defeats the purpose of committing to a build or loadout. It would be more interesting to force players to make that decision at the start of a dungeon and then see how they adapt to different challenges.

  3. #103
    Christ, these prophets of doom complain about virtually anything.

    Gear swapping was tedious and trivialised decisions rather than making them meaningful. Without this, you have to actually consider multiple variables before venturing in a high-level mythic plus dungeon. This, is a great change.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Keyword since Argus release. You are comparing the start of an expansion to the end of the expansion. Blizzard specifically made legendaries easier to acquire the further into the expansion we got. Your argument is akin to saying that Azerite gain in BfA is rarer because we don't have full AK to boost it into the billions. The words you are saying are correct but not being used in the same context so in reality it is incorrect.

    - - - Updated - - -



    So back to the same old RNG gear that WoW has had but during legion hailed as the superior system. At least we know who will hate on Blizzard pretty much no matter what.
    This is a special kind of idiocy. The ONLY items you can wear in helm, shoulder and chest slots are azerite items. They are completely unable to be farmed except a single chance a week from the weekly chest. If you don't see a problem with this then I don't know what to say to you.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by ramayana1423 View Post
    This is a special kind of idiocy. The ONLY items you can wear in helm, shoulder and chest slots are azerite items. They are completely unable to be farmed except a single chance a week from the weekly chest. If you don't see a problem with this then I don't know what to say to you.
    and 4 raids every week
    and emissaries

    and presumably pvp too

    the only "fix" to this I could imagine, is that every week you can get an azerite piece dropped from m+ until one drops, then you cant get another one for the week.

    that way you have 2 a week from just m+

    just flat out giving an infinite source of azerite armour from mythic+ would be a terrible design choice, and even blizzard knows that, which says a lot.
    Last edited by shaunika123; 2018-06-25 at 09:48 PM.

  6. #106
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    The Lookout
    Posts
    20,979
    Quote Originally Posted by shaunika123 View Post
    yeah, for the first 2 days of the expac
    then you go on discord "guys whats best gear combo for m+"

    find your answer and stick with that for 2 years.

    insane choices.

    whereas on the fly adapting, even with premade gears, requires actual thought and recognition.
    You literally just contradicted yourself. Since if you could just go into Discord after 2 days and go "guys whats best gear combo for m+" you could also just as easily go "What talents/gear should I use for each boss".

    Choosing 1 set for an entire Dungeon requires much more decision making, since if I can change every pull it's just "oh this boss is AoE, change to AoE, oh this Boss is Single target change to single target" instead of "So there are bosses that require a lot of single Target DPS, yet there are hard trash packs which require sustained AoE DPS, but there is also a boss that needs Burst Cleave, which do I have to prioritise and what can the rest of my group bring to help deal with the weak spots I might have."

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Meat Rubbing Specialist View Post
    You literally just contradicted yourself. Since if you could just go into Discord after 2 days and go "guys whats best gear combo for m+" you could also just as easily go "What talents/gear should I use for each boss".
    uhm? where did I say static talents are a good thing?
    I'M not sure you know what contradict means.

    and yes, that's literally whats happening, people go on discord and choose talents for each boss. difference is, that they're not stuck with the same talents for the entirety of a raid, only the fight itself.
    m+ is not one fight, it's many different kinds of fights, which means having flexibility and a way to adapt to those offered more skillcap than just using an optimized end all be all gearset for it from start to finish.



    and anyway talents being static but gear being fluid was a decent compromise imho

    it did lock you in but it also gave you flexibility.

    now all the flexibility is gone.

    it doesnt require more decision making, at all. none zero.
    you put the gear on fire and forget and you're good to go without having to worry about it for 30 minutes.

    and to top it off, this will make class balance even more of a nightmare, since people will just tkae classes that can do everything well with 1 gearset.
    Last edited by shaunika123; 2018-06-25 at 09:55 PM.

  8. #108
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    The Lookout
    Posts
    20,979
    Quote Originally Posted by shaunika123 View Post
    I'M not sure you know what contradict means.
    I'm not sure you do, since you pointed out one thing was bad because you could just do this "one simple thing" and "adapting on the fly" was better which you could also do the exact "one simple thing" for.

    Changing between every boss/pull didn't give flexibility, it gave the exact opposite. It forced you into using a specific talent that was best for that specific boss. Whereas being locked in at the start you have to decide what aspect of the dungeon you want to be the best at, and adapt that talent set to work with other challenges in the dungeon that it won't be as good with.

    Though from seeing multiple other people in this thread try to explain the same thing to you, I feel continuing to argue with you about this is pointless as you seem to lack the ability to actually comprehend the point.

  9. #109
    I'm tired if his bullshit. Please get rid of him.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Meat Rubbing Specialist View Post
    I'm not sure you do, since you pointed out one thing was bad because you could just do this "one simple thing" and "adapting on the fly" was better which you could also do the exact "one simple thing" for.

    Changing between every boss/pull didn't give flexibility, it gave the exact opposite. It forced you into using a specific talent that was best for that specific boss. Whereas being locked in at the start you have to decide what aspect of the dungeon you want to be the best at, and adapt that talent set to work with other challenges in the dungeon that it won't be as good with.

    Though from seeing multiple other people in this thread try to explain the same thing to you, I feel continuing to argue with you about this is pointless as you seem to lack the ability to actually comprehend the point.
    It's a brick wall, they don't even like M+ but argue like this just cause?

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Synthium View Post
    I'm telling you they sometimes have to curb the ways people come up with to play the game because it becomes the way to play. It becomes the meta of running M+ at a high level.
    And I'm saying I get it completely. I would rather have a game with a meta and some other sub-optimal choices than a game that only has ONE choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Synthium View Post
    High end guilds actually hate doing split runs. They do it because they get advantage in gear to push into mythic because they race. Method members said they'd be relieved if Blizzard managed to kill it so they don't have to do it anymore. The same way I'm relieved I don't have to collect High-x-stat gear set for 8 targets or more, high-x-stat gear for single target, and high-x-stat for 2 target cleave etc.
    What you described is a problem with Blizzard's design of creating specs(gear+talents) which are over-specialized, then compounding it with layered RNG gear collection.

    Method hates doing SPLIT RUNS, not having the ability to change gears depending on the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by gcsmith View Post
    He is right, if you can change everything for each pack, talent choices and gear choices are actually less important and interesting.
    Except that what he's describing is taking away ALL choices.

    As many people have already pointed out, Azerite gear won't have different traits. And Ion has already gone into detail about how they want higher iLVL gear to always be an upgrade. What that means is that you will either have the "best" pieces or you won't. That's not a choice.

    That only leaves talent and spec choices. Players are very quickly going to determine what the "optimal" build is for M+ runs and that's what will be used. Again, virtually no choice.

    My point is that Blizzard is creating an environment where there is almost no choices to be had anywhere. And while Legion's systems aren't much better(since all you're doing is switching to the optimal gear for each individual situation), it at least has the merit of being potentially more engaging and interesting for people operating at the high-end.

    BfA's system as described by Ion will just be an iLVL check.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    It's pretty simple to understand that reasoning.

    If players are going to just macro hotswap gear sets and talents between every pull, why have gear sets or talents at all? Why not just give players every tool baseline?

    It just defeats the purpose of committing to a build or loadout. It would be more interesting to force players to make that decision at the start of a dungeon and then see how they adapt to different challenges.
    Because they obviously won't give everyone that baseline. They've been attempting to remove more and more of our class toolkits, initially so we couldn't do as muhc, and then so we could just 'earn it back'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Wait... is it REALLY any fun to have to get and maintain several different gear sets? Do some of you really find that to the compelling gameplay?
    As I said to the other poster: People keep complaining about getting and maintaining several gear sets. That's less enjoyable because of the way Blizzard has designed the aquirement of gear. It's a separate issue than the actual USE of that gear.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Santti View Post
    Honestly, I agree with him. It is more interesting, and I have argued this position before. He isn't taking away choices by removing gear swapping. He is adding choices, you muppet. You have to balance between AoE, single target and survivability now. But what gear balance you take with you in this dungeon, with this group, with these affixes and difficulty? The choices are actually meaningful now.

    Gear swapping is not good gameplay. It's just hitting a different macro for situation X Y Z. What kind of choices does that promote, when the choice is more often than not, obvious?
    And what actual choice will you have before the run? Oh, I looked up online what the optimal build/spec is, lets go. That's not meaningful at all!

    As I said just a little bit ago, at least with gear swapping you have to recognize when and where to use things. BfA's system is just cookie cutting 24/7 without ever changing anything. Not making any decisions at all is less interesting than choosing between bad decisions, IMO.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Meat Rubbing Specialist View Post
    I'm not sure you do, since you pointed out one thing was bad because you could just do this "one simple thing" and "adapting on the fly" was better which you could also do the exact "one simple thing" for.

    Changing between every boss/pull didn't give flexibility, it gave the exact opposite. It forced you into using a specific talent that was best for that specific boss. Whereas being locked in at the start you have to decide what aspect of the dungeon you want to be the best at, and adapt that talent set to work with other challenges in the dungeon that it won't be as good with.

    Though from seeing multiple other people in this thread try to explain the same thing to you, I feel continuing to argue with you about this is pointless as you seem to lack the ability to actually comprehend the point.
    there are just as many people (probably infinitely more if we cut down all the people just too lazy to gearswap) that agree with me and trying to explain the opposite to you, so that's a non argument.

    second, do you think that if this happens you wont be forced to use the most optimal loadout all the same? it'Ll just be locked down.

    and no, I never even MENTIONED talents in my original posts so ipso facto i couldnt have been contradicting myself on that.

    and for the record I wouldnt mind if you could swap talents as well in a m+ if it was fluid and intuitive like clicking a gearswap macro
    if I could save entire loadouts for talents/azerite traits/etc and use all of them in a m+ it'd enhance the experience all the more.

    this removes versatility from every class, but more importantly, it removes versatility more from certain classes than others.
    classes that cant do both AOE and ST well without significant alterations will be completely horrible in m+
    or we'll jsut settle into a 2 aoe 1 ST meta, which is just the same as it is, onl with less versatility and flexibility.

    this is like the 5th in the list of changes that remove choices from the player just this expac, I honestly dont see how you dont see a pattern.
    Last edited by shaunika123; 2018-06-25 at 10:22 PM.

  15. #115
    Good. It's a pain in the ass to have to collect gear, organize it, set up macros or use addons and then have to swap gears, often waiting to drop combat because combat bugs are still a thing.

    There really is no problem for people who push higher keys, if you are good you will remain good, in fact it just makes it more accessible for people who are good but don't want to spend time doing unnecessary BS like farming the aggramar trinket in a loot spec that is not even yours.

    The real problem is not gear swapping but addressing bad class toolkits that are not viable in M+ with radical differences in AoE and ST dmg dependant on gear swapping.

  16. #116
    I have no real objection to the gear swap restriction (I hope they also restrict talent swaps with entering/exiting/summoning in that case), it's not exactly more fun to make separate sets and remember to swap between each pull than it is to pick one set before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinzuru View Post
    I agree with you. I just can't come up with an answer good enough right now. All their beliefs are very well covered (in my opinion) by Preach, who is kinda disliked here for some reason.
    Probably because Preach sells you "facts" based on his subjective opinion. Most people capable of making up their own opinion based on personal experience or actual facts are able to call bullshit on large portions of it, but quite a few take his word as law without questioning it. I'm not saying he's not a good content creator in general, but my personal opinion is that he's blowing things out of propotion and purpously misleading people who have never been on Alpha/Beta/PTR.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Arainie View Post
    I have no real objection to the gear swap restriction (I hope they also restrict talent swaps with entering/exiting/summoning in that case), it's not exactly more fun to make separate sets and remember to swap between each pull than it is to pick one set before.


    Probably because Preach sells you "facts" based on his subjective opinion. Most people capable of making up their own opinion based on personal experience or actual facts are able to call bullshit on large portions of it, but quite a few take his word as law without questioning it. I'm not saying he's not a good content creator in general, but my personal opinion is that he's blowing things out of propotion and purpously misleading people who have never been on Alpha/Beta/PTR.
    anyone who has been on alpha/beta/PTR knows that what you see is what you get 99% of the time

    I've no idea who preach is, but I dont think there has been a single expansion with this many controversial changes stacked into one.

    most of them do 1-2 at most not 4-5

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by torish View Post
    Mythic raiding. Mythic dungeons. Bla bla bla. Hazzikostas only knows the words "rated" and "mythic".

    What a loser.
    well, then why does he consistently fuck both of those things up the ass?

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Katsutomai View Post
    When you feel the need to resort to insults in a post about someone.. You're not making your point very well.
    My point is - only idiots think that Blizzard is killing game that earns them literally millions of dollars. Am I making my point well enough?

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by vorchun View Post
    My point is - only idiots think that Blizzard is killing game that earns them literally millions of dollars. Am I making my point well enough?
    noone is saying they're killing the game.

    we're saying that they're telling hardcore players to fuck themselves because casuals earn them more money.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •