[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Pann]

Uh-oh https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44668572

With regard to the discussion about UK ports not all imports will need to be inspected and many imports can be pre-approved negating the need for lengthy customs inspections. Obviously the amount of disruption to the ports processing the imports/exports will be dependent on the agreed deal and its implementation but it is unlikely that the shelves in Tesco will become empty.

[Pann]

I mean they are still discussing things they should have decided before invoking Article 50. Even if Brexit ended up a success, they should still all be sacked for monumental incompetence that borders on treason.

The UK's customs relationship with the EU is dependent on reaching an agreement the EU, there is no way this could have been decided before invoking A50 as the EU would not entertain any discussion on the future EU/UK relationship until A50 was triggered.

[Deleted]

The UK's customs relationship with the EU is dependent on reaching an agreement the EU, there is no way this could have been decided before invoking A50 as the EU would not entertain any discussion on the future EU/UK relationship until A50 was triggered.

You can make a contigency plan which they definitely did not do. You have to cover a range of possible eu responses-that doesn't excuse you from coming up with a range of responses.

In general I can't stress highly enough how incompetent this government has handled the issue as Nymrohd states, regardless of what you actually feel about Brexit. It is really astonishing to me that we had several PM's and supporting cabinet members who didn't, for example, understand that you need a parliamentary vote to pass legislation.

The government has successfully managed to pass off every piece of criticism of its utter incompetence as being somehow anti-brexit.

[Noradin]

And really, this seems inane. Why have people accepted that being anti-Brexit is bad? Almost half the people who bothered to vote were against it and most polls show that the number has grown yet somehow they should be ashamed of that choice and anyone who espouses it is just a saboteur. Fuck that.

Because apparently it is somehow "unpatriotic" and "against the will of the people" to be anti-Brexit after it got a (minimal) majority in the referendum.

[Pann]

You can make a contigency plan which they definitely did not do. You have to cover a range of possible eu responses-that doesn't excuse you from coming up with a range of responses.

In general I can't stress highly enough how incompetent this government has handled the issue as Nymrohd states, regardless of what you actually feel about Brexit. It is really astonishing to me that we had several PM's and supporting cabinet members who didn't, for example, understand that you need a parliamentary vote to pass legislation.

The government has successfully managed to pass off every piece of criticism of its utter incompetence as being somehow anti-brexit.

Putting contingency plans in to action is expensive there is little point spending billions upgrading facilities and systems and on hiring personnel if you do not know whether it will be needed or whether it will meet the EU's expectations.

It appears that the government is pinning their hopes on the MaxFac solution which would not require major upgrades to existing customs facilities and ports, whether this will become acceptable to the EU remains to be seen.

However there is, as far as I am aware, a recruitment drive within the UK Border Agency and plans to upgrade the existing, and build more, lorry facilities in Kent around the Dover area. (I've not heard about anything planned near other ports). It is therefore incorrect to state that there are plans in place to deal with future customs issues.

There are many issues that the government has handled badly but spending money on something that we will not know if it is up to the job until the EU tells us so is not, in my opinion, one of them.

[Pann]

I think all the neighbors are planning for contingencies in their ports.

What's your point?

[Demolitia]

Putting contingency plans in to action is expensive there is little point spending billions upgrading facilities and systems and on hiring personnel if you do not know whether it will be needed or whether it will meet the EU's expectations.

It appears that the government is pinning their hopes on the MaxFac solution which would not require major upgrades to existing customs facilities and ports, whether this will become acceptable to the EU remains to be seen.

However there is, as far as I am aware, a recruitment drive within the UK Border Agency and plans to upgrade the existing, and build more, lorry facilities in Kent around the Dover area. (I've not heard about anything planned near other ports). It is therefore incorrect to state that there are plans in place to deal with future customs issues.

There are many issues that the government has handled badly but spending money on something that we will not know if it is up to the job until the EU tells us so is not, in my opinion, one of them.

Why not plan for a longer transition period then? It was clear from the beginning that the starting negotiating positions of both sides were vastly different. It is clear that anything short of a comprehensive new tailor made agreement is not acceptable, and it is equally clear it will take years to reach. I don't understand the UK's rush. The outcome is not clear idea, vision or unity on anything. Making a block of 27 countries budge on anything is slow, but if you have no idea what you want it will go nowhere.
I guess there is still a last minute EFTA membership, at least for a few years, if nothing else works. The application process should be a bit quicker.
As far as recruitment goes I don't know how it works in the UK's public administration but can't you launch calls to set up reserve lists? You basically have selection procedures but you don't hire until you need to.

[Pann]

Why not plan for a longer transition period then? It was clear from the beginning that the starting negotiating positions of both sides were vastly different. It is clear that anything short of a comprehensive new tailor made agreement is not acceptable, and it is equally clear it will take years to reach. I don't understand the UK's rush. The outcome is not clear idea, vision or unity on anything. Making a block of 27 countries budge on anything is slow, but if you have no idea what you want it will go nowhere.
I guess there is still a last minute EFTA membership, at least for a few years, if nothing else works. The application process should be a bit quicker.
As far as recruitment goes I don't know how it works in the UK's public administration but can't you launch calls to set up reserve lists? You basically have selection procedures but you don't hire until you need to.

Isn't that the whole point of the customs backstop agreed between the UK and the EU?

It appears that you are talking about wider issues than just customs and to be honest I don't have the answers nor do I disagree with what you've written.

I don't think offering people a job that might or might not materialise some time in the indeterminate future would be workable or cost effective.

[Slant]

You're pretty positive without explaining just how they're going to do it. None of the top 6 busiest container ports in the EU are located in the UK, if we're going by tonnage there isn't even one UK port that makes top 10. The thing is, dover handles 17% of UKs entire trade in goods. More than 2,5 mio lorries were handled there in 2017. That's 2,5 mio lorries that soon have to go through customs checks. Fun times!

I'm not positive. I'm not overly dramatic, either, however. They'll run into enough problems without dunces speaking about starvation and food shortages. Is this really a discussion worth having?

- - - Updated - - -

Sure it does, but none of them are prepared to provide space for all the extra work.

They'll be enough to prevent the silly nonsense starvation and food shortage some erm... let's call them persons... are discussing here. Please feel free to replace persons with any type of derogatory insult you'd like to use.

[Demolitia]

Isn't that the whole point of the customs backstop agreed between the UK and the EU?

It appears that you are talking about wider issues than just customs and to be honest I don't have the answers nor do I disagree with what you've written.

I don't think offering people a job that might or might not materialise some time in the indeterminate future would be workable or cost effective.

The backstop agreement seems to be presented as a last resort that will never happen (or at least it looks to me like it was sold this way to May's irish allies), while there is a very probable chance it will happen.
It appears we agree on most things indeed.
The way reserve lists work here is that you would launch those knowing there is a big chance you'd need someone 6 months to a year from now. Most people who make it decline the offer if it appears but if you manage to have a bunch of people, at least you get them and it saves you the 3-9 months it takes to launch a call, have interviews, get the person to give a resignation notice, join and be trained. It's not a magical solution but if it works it can save a lot of time.

[Noradin]

They'll be enough to prevent the silly nonsense starvation and food shortage some erm... let's call them persons... are discussing here. Please feel free to replace persons with any type of derogatory insult you'd like to use.

I'm not arguing that any starvation will occur, but foot shortage? Sure, for specific foods at the very least.

[Pann]

The backstop agreement seems to be presented as a last resort that will never happen (or at least it looks to me like it was sold this way to May's irish allies), while there is a very probable chance it will happen.
It appears we agree on most things indeed.
The way reserve lists work here is that you would launch those knowing there is a big chance you'd need someone 6 months to a year from now. Most people who make it decline the offer if it appears but if you manage to have a bunch of people, at least you get them and it saves you the 3-9 months it takes to launch a call, have interviews, get the person to give a resignation notice, join and be trained. It's not a magical solution but if it works it can save a lot of time.

Of course it is, the backstop will see the UK continue to follow EU rules without any say, as you can imagine this is not particularly popular in the UK. It, also, represents the Brixter supporter's worst fear: Brexit in name only. But in the event of no solution being found it will ultimately extend the transition period, at least in terms of customs.

The problems with a reserve list in this situation, as I see them, are potentially there are in excess of 1,000 staff needed who need a long training period (because the system(s) they will be working to might not actually exist in a usable form) and it is uncertain when they will be needed (meaning that in, say, two years' time when you need them to start training many of them may have found alternative employment or they can no longer work due to a change in circumstances which would require the recruitment process to essentially be repeated).

[Deleted]

I'm not positive. I'm not overly dramatic, either, however. They'll run into enough problems without dunces speaking about starvation and food shortages..

Er...its hardly a remote responsibility. We have a shortage of some foodstuff and rationing of products in the UK right now.

[Pann]

Er...its hardly a remote responsibility. We have a shortage of some foodstuff and rationing of products in the UK right now.

What? No we don't. Unless you are talking about the CO2 production problems which are in no way comparable to the issue being discussed.

[Deleted]

What? No we don't. Unless you are talking about the CO2 production problems which are in no way comparable to the issue being discussed.

It is causing a food shortage. I don't know biblical the shortages of food is supposed to get before it meets your threshold of importance.

[Pann]

It is causing a food shortage. I don't know biblical the shortages of food is supposed to get before it meets your threshold of importance.

It is a production issue and has absolutely nothing to with customs or Brexit therefore I do not know why you mentioned this in reply to Slant or at all.

[Demolitia]

Of course it is, the backstop will see the UK continue to follow EU rules without any say, as you can imagine this is not particularly popular in the UK. It, also, represents the Brixter supporter's worst fear: Brexit in name only. But in the event of no solution being found it will ultimately extend the transition period, at least in terms of customs.

The problems with a reserve list in this situation, as I see them, are potentially there are in excess of 1,000 staff needed who need a long training period (because the system(s) they will be working to might not actually exist in a usable form) and it is uncertain when they will be needed (meaning that in, say, two years' time when you need them to start training many of them may have found alternative employment or they can no longer work due to a change in circumstances which would require the recruitment process to essentially be repeated).

Agreed.
As I said it's not perfect and you will not fill up all the positions this way. But if you manage to get even 100 or 200 this way, it's a good start.
Most of the time people have found a better position elsewhere but now and then you find one and it still helps a great deal. At this point every bit helps.

[Pann]

Agreed.
As I said it's not perfect and you will not fill up all the positions this way. But if you manage to get even 100 or 200 this way, it's a good start.
Most of the time people have found a better position elsewhere but now and then you find one and it still helps a great deal. At this point every bit helps.

It seems to me that the plan is recruit between now and March 2019, when we leave the EU, and then use the transition period to train the recruits, sort the wheat from the chaff and iron out issues with the customs solution ready for when the transition period ends in 2021 (assuming, of course, that everything goes to plan and the EU agrees). Which under the circumstances appears to be the best course of action to me.

[Noradin]

It is a production issue and has absolutely nothing to with customs or Brexit therefore I do not know why you mentioned this in reply to Slant or at all.

Admit it: You're delirious from hunger after all these weeks of starvation since the referendum
Now you have started to imagine food, supermarkets, and competent politicans everywhere...

[dribbles]

It seems to me that the plan is recruit between now and March 2019, when we leave the EU, and then use the transition period to train the recruits, sort the wheat from the chaff and iron out issues with the customs solution ready for when the transition period ends in 2021 (assuming, of course, that everything goes to plan and the EU agrees). Which under the circumstances appears to be the best course of action to me.

The HMRC system to cope with customs should a no deal Brexit occur launches in a few weeks time and is on target to be fully functional by January 2019.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/g...ration-service

The UK is nearly ready for that sweet no deal and well prepared, are the EU?