Bfa mm aoe fix

[Rockford]

Afaik it's always been 1-2, I got beta 1 or 2 months ago!

Oh yeah, Arcane's had that proc since alpha.
Just they've added Multi sometime recently (kind of (I think)), which may help in the AoE numbers, but still being dependant on Aimed.

[Magnagarde]

Multishot needs to at least stop being a focus spender and it should recieve a slight damage buff. The AiS cast time is unbelievably annoying and long; not only do you have a recharge time - unlike in Legion - but you have a long cast which often fails to be delivered on targets that are going low.

The AoE rotation needs a solution for two targets that finally feels right.

While the additional mobility that has been continously "praised" is welcome, it's totally blown away by the AiS cast time. Casting it in high M+ keys and a mythic raiding environment will be unbelievably annoying as it is often better to move than attempt to get an AiS cast off(see M Argus cone slaughter of so many during progression), but failing to land 1 AiS in the rotation is a huge DPS loss because of BfA's iteration of the spec; not only do you waste recharge uptime, but you also lose one or two arcane shots that are to follow or trick shots for your next AiS if there's AoE to be done.

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Just they've added Multi sometime recently (kind of (I think)), which may help in the AoE numbers, but still being dependant on Aimed.

Yep, the fact that the AoE rotation depends on having an AiS to follow up is bogging it down.

I honestly don't know why they had to bring AiS charges again. The spec feels much more fluid without a charge cap.

[Gasparde]

Casting it in high M+ keys and a mythic raiding environment will be unbelievably annoying as it is often better to move than attempt to get an AiS cast off(see M Argus cone slaughter of so many during progression), but failing to land 1 AiS in the rotation is a huge DPS loss because of BfA's iteration of the spec; not only do you waste recharge uptime, but you also lose one or two arcane shots that are to follow or trick shots for your next AiS if there's AoE to be done..

That's only gonna be a thing... if you're bad.

You have bossmods giving you a cone timer 10 years in advance and Aimed Shot has 2 stacks. Like, if a single mechanic every 30 seconds makes things 'annoying' or 'cancel or die' to you then you should go and pick a melee - preferably auto-bubble Ret.

Like, holy shit, we get it, ~2s+ is quite a long time, especially if your class didn't have such cast times before - but stop acting like it's gonna be impossible to play with it. Annoying? Yes. Problematic? Not at all. But I supposed the whole Vulnerable thing didn't completely fuck you over if you had to move at a bad time, right?

[Magnagarde]

That's only gonna be a thing... if you're bad.

You have bossmods giving you a cone timer 10 years in advance and Aimed Shot has 2 stacks. Like, if a single mechanic every 30 seconds makes things 'annoying' or 'cancel or die' to you then you should go and pick a melee - preferably auto-bubble Ret.

Like, holy shit, we get it, ~2s+ is quite a long time, especially if your class didn't have such cast times before - but stop acting like it's gonna be impossible to play with it. Annoying? Yes. Problematic? Not at all. But I supposed the whole Vulnerable thing didn't completely fuck you over if you had to move at a bad time, right?

I've had no big problems with it. What I'm saying is that future raids will be increasingly annoying if they keep adding similar bosses and they will. The 0.5 seconds make a gigantic difference because they're coupled with a fixed recharge rate.

I didn't "act" like it's going to be impossible, so instead of trying to read too much into it, you could simply read what I wrote and that is that it's going to be unbelievably annoying. You aknowledged that it is annoying too.

Vulnerable's "complete fuckover" was highly specific depending on how far into the vulnerable window you are. Moving in the mid of the window and then landin an AiS during the last bit of it wasn't an issue and was actually commendable in some situations as you'd get into a new rotation a lot quicker while profiting from the Patient Sniper talent. On top of this, an AiS landed outside of the vulnerable window was still worth for the damage it dealt, although it was supposed to be avoided at all times.

Fast-forward to BfA and you have a fixed number of charges with an almost fixed-in recharge rate, unless you use your "big CD" which doesn't even feel like a big CD. BfA's MM is about one and one thing only; you either overlap a charge, which is the most serious offense when it comes to DPS performance or you don't; there's no what-ifs and inbetweens(ie how far into the vulnerable window you are, how much is left of it, how much focus do you have and is it better to actually restart the rotation).

To sum it up; the "big CD" doesn't feel like one at all(gives one AiS charge and the follow-up Arcane Shot procs, after which you wait 3 minutes for it to go back up), multishot has become a focus spender after it was a generator, our previous insta-cast focus generator now has a cast time, aimed shot had no charges and is now capped by them, the AoE rotation has no solution to 2 targets and takes a huge amount of time to properly set up and execute(ie AiS > Multishot with proc > AiS > Multishot with proc > Rapidfire > ???? lengthy period of doing absolutely nothing meaningful other than waiting for cooldowns to go down, which is in stark contrast with how it's done in live).


The live iteration of this spec is miles ahead of what we see in BfA's beta. The one thing that many of those who played this spec complained about was how it feels too static and yet this was the only thing that Blizzard built upon when it comes to this spec, turning it into an even more static spec.

[Kwaai]

If you think it'll be a struggle to get of AiS I don't even want to imagine how hard you think it must be to play literally every other caster.

[andreasels]

I've had no big problems with it. What I'm saying is that future raids will be increasingly annoying if they keep adding similar bosses and they will. The 0.5 seconds make a gigantic difference because they're coupled with a fixed recharge rate.

I didn't "act" like it's going to be impossible, so instead of trying to read too much into it, you could simply read what I wrote and that is that it's going to be unbelievably annoying. You aknowledged that it is annoying too.

Vulnerable's "complete fuckover" was highly specific depending on how far into the vulnerable window you are. Moving in the mid of the window and then landin an AiS during the last bit of it wasn't an issue and was actually commendable in some situations as you'd get into a new rotation a lot quicker while profiting from the Patient Sniper talent. On top of this, an AiS landed outside of the vulnerable window was still worth for the damage it dealt, although it was supposed to be avoided at all times.

If you need to move during vulnerable window on live, you are at risk of capping focus, which is just as bad as capping charges. On BfA you can dump all your charges if you expect the need to be moving soon and you won't loose any dps by doing so.
A single Aimed Shot cast is only 25% longer than in legion and you are not forced to put 2 in a row anymore for maximum benefit (T20 2pc). On top of that, you will only spend around 25% of your time casting aimed shots and can even sort of choose, when to do this. So I can't see, how BfA MM will be more annoying/punishing than Legion MM in this regard.

[Nythiz]

The 0.5 seconds make a gigantic difference because they're coupled with a fixed recharge rate.

The fixed recharge rate and the fact we have charges makes that better though.

If you have to move during the last few milliseconds on an aimed shot in legion you lose out on a full aimed shot.

In BFA you are stuck with charges, so unless you played absolutely horrible you don't actually lose any aimed shot damage,
What you lose is other damage you could have possibly used that free GCD for, which in most cases is 1 steady shot. So you lose 1 steady shot worth of damage + 10 focus.
One could argue that is much less than what you'd lose by moving in Legion.

[Magnagarde]

If you have to move during the last few milliseconds on an aimed shot in legion you lose out on a full aimed shot.

The point is, however, that there's not as many downsides to missing an aimed shot in Legion as there potentially is in missing one in BfA, simply due to the fact that you could stack 2 charges and then lose cooldown time.

Moving in Legion, especially during a start-to-mid of a vulnerable window - and with the patient sniper talent - isn't even a problem because not only do you land a more powerful aimed shot, but you also quickly get into the next rotation.

[Nythiz]

The point is, however, that there's not as many downsides to missing an aimed shot in Legion as there potentially is in missing one in BfA, simply due to the fact that you could stack 2 charges and then lose cooldown time.

I disagree. Losing out an aimed shot in legion really loses you out on 1 whole aimed shot.
You practically never lose an aimed shot in BfA unless you're sitting on 2 charges, in which case you either:
a) did something wrong
b) Have to move around for more than 20 seconds

B practically never happens on boss fights, it would totally wreck caster classes.

Moving in Legion, especially during a start-to-mid of a vulnerable window - and with the patient sniper talent - isn't even a problem because not only do you land a more powerful aimed shot, but you also quickly get into the next rotation.

Canceling an aimed shot is always a problem, because unless you are just pushing random shit, your vulnerable shot order is basically a rotation.
It's generally Marked Shot -> Arcane Shot -> Aimed Shot -> Aimed Shot
Cancelling any of those 2 aimed shots will lose you dps.

You're arguing that moving during the early part of vulnerability isn't a problem, because you want to casts aimed shots at the end anyway; but that is not the discussion at hand.

[Feanoro]

Isn't mm meant to be strong in solo ranged target damage and not to be that strong in AOE?

That'd be great if Blizz could get over their love of tons of shit to AoE down and go back to Classic/TBC style prioritizing targets. Since that's not happening, why exactly should MM have no AoE?

[Magnagarde]

You're arguing that moving during the early part of vulnerability isn't a problem, because you want to casts aimed shots at the end anyway; but that is not the discussion at hand.

What I meant with this is that cancelling an AiS in Legion isn't always punishing, whereas cancelling it out on - say - an AoE rotation during a raid in BfA can lead to larger AiS downtime because you'll want to closely fit in one AiS right after a multishot proc that tags the targets.

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b) Have to move around for more than 20 seconds

B practically never happens on boss fights, it would totally wreck caster classes.

Imagine a boss like the fire dog on mythic in Antorus and the annoyment of having to cancel out your AiS cast all the time as it is too long or not even initiating it. You can keep doing Steady Shots/Arcane shots and Rapid Fire on cooldown while moving, but not a 2.5 seconds AiS.

While I'll deal with it, it comes at a great expense of fun and comes with a lot of annoyment.

The already pretty weak mobility of MM has been increased further due to a 2.5s cast of AIS and the spec has been dumbed down/made more annoying in every single aspect of DPS gameplay; CDs don't feel like CDs, the Legion AoE focus generator has become a spender and our instant-cast generator has a cast time.

While I'm a spec enthusiast myself, I don't see how anyone can justify these changes and keep a straight face.

[andreasels]

What I meant with this is that cancelling an AiS in Legion isn't always punishing, whereas cancelling it out on - say - an AoE rotation during a raid in BfA can lead to larger AiS downtime because you'll want to closely fit in one AiS right after a multishot proc that tags the targets.

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Imagine a boss like the fire dog on mythic in Antorus and the annoyment of having to cancel out your AiS cast all the time as it is too long or not even initiating it. You can keep doing Steady Shots/Arcane shots and Rapid Fire on cooldown while moving, but not a 2.5 seconds AiS.

While I'll deal with it, it comes at a great expense of fun and comes with a lot of annoyment.

The already pretty weak mobility of MM has been increased further due to a 2.5s cast of AIS and the spec has been dumbed down/made more annoying in every single aspect of DPS gameplay; CDs don't feel like CDs, the Legion AoE focus generator has become a spender and our instant-cast generator has a cast time.

While I'm a spec enthusiast myself, I don't see how anyone can justify these changes and keep a straight face.

You don't need to tag mobs with multishot in BfA. You get a buff when you hit more than 2 mobs which let's your next Aimed Shot cleave.

Fights like dogs will make BfA MM loose way less dps than legion MM btw, since it's much more mobile. It's only 1 cast every 12 seconds on average (reduced by haste) and you can delay it even further without losing dps, since it's on a charge system. You can perfectly plan around that, if you look at timers, while on legion MM, you got way longer times where you need to stand still, since basicly all you do is cast aimed shots.

[Rockford]

You don't need to tag mobs with multishot in BfA. You get a buff when you hit more than 2 mobs which let's your next Aimed Shot cleave.

And, how would you receive that buff...
By hitting (tagging) 3+ targets with your multishot, you receive the Trickshots buff for Aimed Shot to ricochet up to 5 targets. I'm sure you'd know that was what Magna was talking about. In legion, you could AoE without even using AiS, and being able to move freely just by using Multi and Marked. With having the base AoE along with empowered Arcane and Multi, the player can be incredibly restricted in moments of high movement, knockback (as in Motherlode) and low health mobs. Without getting that AiS out there, there is no base AoE. All because of a single ability which AoE and effective ST is built around.

[Lackofskill]

You have bossmods giving you a cone timer 10 years in advance and Aimed Shot has 2 stacks. Like, if a single mechanic every 30 seconds makes things 'annoying' or 'cancel or die' to you then you should go and pick a melee - preferably auto-bubble Ret.

Think less cones , and more swirlies on the ground... even in legion you wouldve predicted when you should move away before a certain ability which you need to move away from ,but some random things that show up on the ground , you cant predict any of that. They oversimplified stuff and made one of the top specs for min-maxing in legion to be one of the most brainless - do everything on cd specs, which is alright , since they listened to the community. The very same community who instead of spending time to learn how to play around vulnerable debuff they camped the forums with useless posts.
But yeah , AoE... Guess we will have to wait until 8.1 to see what we have to deal with next patch, for now the spec, unless they tune numbers right(read piercing shot ,explosive shot dmg buff and maybe bring back crit dmg increase on trueshot) is basically on par with shadow priest for m+ i reckon.

[andreasels]

And, how would you receive that buff...
By hitting (tagging) 3+ targets with your multishot, you receive the Trickshots buff for Aimed Shot to ricochet up to 5 targets. I'm sure you'd know that was what Magna was talking about. In legion, you could AoE without even using AiS, and being able to move freely just by using Multi and Marked. With having the base AoE along with empowered Arcane and Multi, the player can be incredibly restricted in moments of high movement, knockback (as in Motherlode) and low health mobs. Without getting that AiS out there, there is no base AoE. All because of a single ability which AoE and effective ST is built around.

I am pretty sure that trickshot is only consumed if your aimed shot cast finishes, so if you really have to cancel it, you can start the next one.
Legion AoE is only more mobile if you get procs or during Trueshot btw, otherwise you still cast aimed shot to stay from focus cap and always to dump Belt stacks.
Low HP mobs might be annoying from time to time, but that's on you for choosing a low HP mob to cast an aimed shot on. If there are only Mobs which die before you can finish an aimed shot cast, it didn't matter anymore anyway.

[Ladyoftheforest]

Isn't the meme build in conjunction with Trickshot decent enough in the beta? You have multiple cooldowns in Explosive shot, Rapid fire, Double tap and Piercing shot to juggle towards a good amount of aoe or are the numbers of this combination lacklustre?

[Gasparde]

Imagine a boss like the fire dog on mythic in Antorus and the annoyment of having to cancel out your AiS cast all the time as it is too long or not even initiating it. You can keep doing Steady Shots/Arcane shots and Rapid Fire on cooldown while moving, but not a 2.5 seconds AiS..

Like, no offense, but you seem to be at terrible MM. Nothing in that fight happens without a warning - a warning you get like 20 seconds in advance. Fire dog about to hit 100% energy? What about you just spend your 2 stacks of AiS WHILE THERE'S NOTHING GOING ON so you're not wasting any stacks while there's that evil 5 seconds movement period? Repeat that for literally every ability because you simply NEVER move for 20 seconds straight so you should literally never be at risk of capping or having to interrupt an AiS.

MM is in no way different than any other caster. Plan your movement and you'll never lose anything as pretty much no fight these days has random and unforeseeable things going on. Also, realistically AiS will always be closer to a 2s cast than a 2.5s cast unless you for some reason just don't pick up any haste. If you have problems getting of 2 2s cast in 20 seconds then you're simply bad - that's all there's to it. And that's not an MM thing, that's literally a caster thing. Like, Elemental Shamans have been dealing with such a system for years now - and contrary to BFA MM Ele can't use 90% of it's kit while moving.

[Magnagarde]

Like, no offense, but you seem to be at terrible MM. Nothing in that fight happens without a warning - a warning you get like 20 seconds in advance. Fire dog about to hit 100% energy? What about you just spend your 2 stacks of AiS WHILE THERE'S NOTHING GOING ON so you're not wasting any stacks while there's that evil 5 seconds movement period? Repeat that for literally every ability because you simply NEVER move for 20 seconds straight so you should literally never be at risk of capping or having to interrupt an AiS.

MM is in no way different than any other caster. Plan your movement and you'll never lose anything as pretty much no fight these days has random and unforeseeable things going on. Also, realistically AiS will always be closer to a 2s cast than a 2.5s cast unless you for some reason just don't pick up any haste. If you have problems getting of 2 2s cast in 20 seconds then you're simply bad - that's all there's to it. And that's not an MM thing, that's literally a caster thing. Like, Elemental Shamans have been dealing with such a system for years now - and contrary to BFA MM Ele can't use 90% of it's kit while moving.

No offense taken. If you weren't annoyed by the fight and constant moving without being able to cast your hard hitting ability for quite a while, then that's your personal preference. I've had no issue killing the dogs or performing well on them in mythic, I simply found the fight terribly annoying. If you believe someone's bad at MM because they find such fights annoying, then that's on you lol

Elemental shamans have had numerous things to use on the example I've made, from Lava Burst procs from Flame Shock, Stormkeeper's Lightning Strike and the Ice Fury build + dumping all the malestrom on Earth Shock. All you'd do inbetween all the movement is cast Elemental Blast and squeeze in a Lava Burst whose damage doesn't depend on a mechanic like Vulnerable and which is cast freely whenever on CD, as long as you don't have Maelstrom capped.

The two specs are incomparable in situations like these. MM top performance rellied entirely on landing AiS within Vulnerable, with no ifs and inbetweens.

[Gasparde]

Elemental shamans have had numerous things to use on the example I've made, from Lava Burst procs from Flame Shock, Stormkeeper's Lightning Strike and the Ice Fury build + dumping all the malestrom on Earth Shock. All you'd do inbetween all the movement is cast Elemental Blast and squeeze in a Lava Burst whose damage doesn't depend on a mechanic like Vulnerable and which is cast freely whenever on CD, as long as you don't have Maelstrom capped.

How comes you consider all these very situational and very build-up reliant Ele spells as something noteworthy while MM supposedly loses all of it's damage when you have to move? LB procs? Can't control. Ice Fury, Stormkeeper and Earthshock all need to be planned in advance or significantly delayed. How is that any different from MM simply using both AiS charges... and then just doing whatever without having to rely on procs or CDs?

[Deleted]

why not just switch to a different spec when MM can't do X during Y.

weeeeeeee.....
That discussion is going on and on with an Early-Legion mindset.
(and people who think it's problematic to cast AiS , which has a charge/stack system, should really look into other classes.)