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  1. #81
    I don’t really understand why people feel this way about BfA. It has the usual questing/raids/dungeons we get every expansion, still carrying on WQs which seemed popular, there’s more pvp content than they’ve added in a while, we got the Allied Races, and we’re also grtting the island expeditions, and warfronts. That’s alot of shit. And from what I’ve done on beta the new zones for both factions are awesome. If it’s the storyline and boohoo Horde/Alliance is boring I mean it’s 100% obvious the story is going beyond that with old gods or some other influence. It’s like Pandaria where initially it was “all about Pandaren” but the focus quickly started shifting.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    The point usually made here is that none of that actually requires you to level your character. Your progression stopped at the last talent row, which you got at lvl 100. There is no character growth for your char between 100 and 120. Which is also why many people keep mentioning another talent row.

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    When every pug instantly quits a dungeon because they know it's going to be a shit fest then it isn't good tuning, certainly not compared to the rest of them.
    I guess every pug player has to step up their game then. I remember back in Wrath, there were two heroic dungeons where people left or often quit at the start. One had you escape from the Lich King at the end - Halls of Reflection? Idk. Those were great, I always loved doing them - after the people who have zero patience and wipe tolerance left and got replaced by decent players, that is.

    If you played beta, i'm sure you've came across Yazma in heroic Atal'Dazar. I don't know if it's still the case, but the boss was severly overtuned at some point. I went through probably 5-7 groups until I found a group of players who were dedicated enough to actually work out strategies in a 5 man dungeon, spending about an hour of tries, and finally killing the boss. We all agreed that this moment was the most fun we've ever had in the beta, it actually felt like we accomplished something, and I made some friends in the progress. I wish all dungeons would be like that, instead of the "don't talk, just rush through it" it is right now.

  3. #83
    I can't remember a single run where people instantly quit Halls of Reflection, Grim Batol on the other hand..
    Edit: Shame that HoR is not part of the Time Walking set. I would like to that again instead of Pit of Saron..
    Last edited by Cosmic Janitor; 2018-07-04 at 06:25 PM.

  4. #84
    Warchief taishar68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Here is one specific example:

    Havoc Demon Hunter suffers from very poor Fury generation. So much so that you either choose to Spam Dbite and get carpal tunnel or you choose an RNG passive generation talent and stand there waiting for Fury.


    How is this issue fixed? Not at a base level by the designers. It's fixed by a Legendary ring that increases Fury generation. Even then it's not enough.


    This is the same for almost every spec. None of them play the way they are meant to until you have 2 BiS legendaries and a full Artifact.

    This is the reason feedback has been so insanely negative in BfA for class design. Because Azerite armour doesn't fill the gaps like Artifacts + Legendaries did.
    Fair enough, but let me offer a counterpoint.

    I am not a great player, pretty average I'd say, but I did my best to play my spec (Fire Mage) as best as I could. At some point, it became optimum for FM's to use the Pyro bracers and Scorch waist (iirc they were the BiS), but I had neither. When I eventually did have them, it didn't make me feel like I was playing the correct spec, finally. Of course others may feel differently, but the feel didn't change all that much; you set your priority differently, but it's still the same spells. Again, just my opinion. I can see where people feel that specs are wildly different just on those types of changes alone.

    Another question though; how do we know that the way it was meant to be played was with the 2 BiS legendaries? I can see the full artifact issue, and how they might have tuned the specs to work in Heroic/Mythic raids based on folks having all the traits, but how do we know, not think or guess, that any spec is meant to be played based on such a limited set of criteria? Is it possible that for Legion, DH's were not meant to generate Fury as fast as they did once you had the loaded arty and the 2 Legs, and that the generation rate with them was a bonus, or perhaps meant to be a boost to get over Mythic?

    If the BfA design is based on having x azerite traits available at y level of content, I'd say the design is fine. But, I would also say that it would be a pain if those incremental changes made for a large swing in playstyle, or if that without all the toys, playing a spec in say dungeons or islands just feels crappy because you can't hit the buttons when you want to, that is, less satisfying. To me, the spec should feel good to you from the start, and feel better as you get better gear. So in that respect, I can see why it is frustrating.
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  5. #85
    Warchief taishar68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    How do we know?

    Because they feel bad to play without them. They feel incomplete.

    Also - Blizzard balanced around them. They had to.


    Anyone who tries to claim Legion specs weren't designed around their Artifact is kidding themselves. Everyone was absolutely gutted to make way for them.
    I am quite sure they were designed with the artifacts in mind.

    The bad or incomplete feeling is subjective though. The same will apply for BfA; you see the specs as awful, the design bad, because you see class design a certain way that the devs don't. I don't think everyone shares that opinion, but obviously some do.
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  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by taishar68 View Post
    I am quite sure they were designed with the artifacts in mind.

    The bad or incomplete feeling is subjective though. The same will apply for BfA; you see the specs as awful, the design bad, because you see class design a certain way that the devs don't. I don't think everyone shares that opinion, but obviously some do.
    The devs must see the Havoc Demon Hunter as a class that does nothing. How do we fight in melee when we can’t survive melee?

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by XangXu View Post
    The devs must see the Havoc Demon Hunter as a class that does nothing. How do we fight in melee when we can’t survive melee?
    I haven't played one in beta, so I can't really offer any feedback. How many mobs does it take to overwhelm you? Or are you referring to dungeon content?
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  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyron View Post
    Legiondaries being a great system is the new "insertexpansion was the best expansion" lol.
    Wait wait wait i thought we hated legiondaries? guys i'm so confused! can someone explain to me what happened? I spent the last 2 years hating legendaries because the MMOC forums told me that was what i was supposed to do. now i'm supposed to miss them when they're gone?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Here is one specific example:

    Havoc Demon Hunter suffers from very poor Fury generation. So much so that you either choose to Spam Dbite and get carpal tunnel or you choose an RNG passive generation talent and stand there waiting for Fury.


    How is this issue fixed? Not at a base level by the designers. It's fixed by a Legendary ring that increases Fury generation. Even then it's not enough.


    This is the same for almost every spec. None of them play the way they are meant to until you have 2 BiS legendaries and a full Artifact.

    This is the reason feedback has been so insanely negative in BfA for class design. Because Azerite armour doesn't fill the gaps like Artifacts + Legendaries did.
    There's a talent that you can pick that does what that ring does. maybe try playing around with different talents until you find one you like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by taishar68 View Post
    I haven't played one in beta, so I can't really offer any feedback. How many mobs does it take to overwhelm you? Or are you referring to dungeon content?
    I've played a havoc DH in beta and the most i've taken out at once is about 12 mobs on me all dead in a few seconds. This person doesn't know how to play

  9. #89
    The lack of content at lvl 120 currently is what is kinda worrysome.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by xicoia View Post
    Too bad legion was actually a good expansion
    Better than wotlk

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by reauxmont View Post
    I guess every pug player has to step up their game then. I remember back in Wrath, there were two heroic dungeons where people left or often quit at the start. One had you escape from the Lich King at the end - Halls of Reflection? Idk. Those were great, I always loved doing them - after the people who have zero patience and wipe tolerance left and got replaced by decent players, that is.

    If you played beta, i'm sure you've came across Yazma in heroic Atal'Dazar. I don't know if it's still the case, but the boss was severly overtuned at some point. I went through probably 5-7 groups until I found a group of players who were dedicated enough to actually work out strategies in a 5 man dungeon, spending about an hour of tries, and finally killing the boss. We all agreed that this moment was the most fun we've ever had in the beta, it actually felt like we accomplished something, and I made some friends in the progress. I wish all dungeons would be like that, instead of the "don't talk, just rush through it" it is right now.
    Yazma felt great overtuned. We had around 10+ wipes until we agreed on positioning, interupts and time to use BL.

    In Wrath I personally liked Oculus, but didn't like Halls of Reflection after completing initial quest. It had no decent rewards. And yes, I had zero "patience and wipe tolerance".

  12. #92
    Deleted
    Legion :
    Fucking legendaries.
    Fucking RNG.
    Can't wait to get rid of these.

    BFA:
    bfa overall is so unexciting its outrageous:
    - legion legendaries are gone, which again were making huge difference in playstyle and talent choice
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dizson View Post
    The lack of content at lvl 120 currently is what is kinda worrysome.
    Many things has yet to be unveil !

  13. #93
    Fully agree with OP. BfA is just a copy paste of Legion.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Sencha View Post
    Fully agree with OP. BfA is just a copy paste of Legion.
    Minus the good things.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Riain ED View Post
    In your opinion*

    When will people learn the difference between objective and subjective information.

    Thank you for sharing YOUR opinion with us mate. I completely disagree, I have beta access and am hyped as fuck.
    When will people learn to comprehend? Not once did the OP attempt to state anything as fact, or how other people felt. In fact, OP even specifically said things like "I don't find it fun".

    I get you like to white knight for poor, picked on Blizzard, but at least use some fucking reading comprehension before spouting your nonsensical rebukes.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    We were specifically talking about Legion design and how they fixed CORE DESIGN issues with Artifacts and Legendaries.

    Try reading comprehension before you spew on your keyboard.

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    It's not subjective though is it?

    Unless they designed it to torture you. If it isn't FUN then whats the point?

    What's fun about spamming a weak damage weak fury gain Demons Bite for Fury. Giving you carpal tunnel?

    Conversely what's fun about choosing the passive talent and sometimes going 10+ seconds without gaining Fury.

    Compelling gameplay.
    My reading comprehension is obviously higher than yours. I was clearly spitting out sarcasm. You just can't seem to pick up on that.

  17. #97
    And I disagree with OP

    I'm very excited for BfA, especially PvP-side of things - isn't it great that there's more than one kind of person and we all enjoy WoW differently?

  18. #98
    Warchief taishar68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    It's not subjective though is it

    Unless they designed it to torture you. If it isn't FUN then whats the point?

    What's fun about spamming a weak damage weak fury gain Demons Bite for Fury. Giving you carpal tunnel?

    Conversely what's fun about choosing the passive talent and sometimes going 10+ seconds without gaining Fury.

    Compelling gameplay.
    I have to lean towards subjective. I rolled a DH on beta last night, did not choose the passive regen talent (even on live, the cupboard is bare on buttons to push), and I found that the Fury regen felt fine; 3 DB's to just about full, used Eye Beam on CD, Chaos Strike otherwise...it wasn't a tapestry of skill weaving, I'll grant, but it didn't feel boring or awful...to me. Your perspective is different and that's fine, but I still think it is subjective.

    Add to that, it is just one of 36 specs; maybe there is something else there that might strike your fancy, and maybe not. I just wouldn't agree that class design is categorically awful.
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  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Let me ask - do you main Havoc?

    The story changes after you've played it for hours on end. It's all well and good to claim you enjoy something after playing it for 20 minutes. The cracks start to show after extensive play.
    Perhaps it does; no, I do not main Havoc, and am a neophyte, to be kind, with the spec. I doubt I'd ever get to really hate it, just because of how I am in general. I was just saying that it didn't seem like Fury generation was all that bad, but, I was not trying to min/max DPS in a live setting.
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  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    I see this far too often on this forum.

    "I tried _____ on the beta and it seemed fine."

    Regardless of what I think about "fine" if you really want to know about the problems the spec has check a feedback thread on the official beta forums.

    We're playing an MMO. Do you really think 30 minutes is a good amount of time to find out if something is fine.
    Of course not...I was merely trying to open up the conversation along the lines of "one spec does not a bad overall design make", and when you pointed out the weak fury regen of Havoc, I had no basis for comparison because I hadn't played it much, so rather than go on no information, I wanted to have something to bring to the discussion. My intent was not to assume I know better than people who have played the class more extensively than I, but rather that there are different opinions of what is good, feels good, what have you. I rarely provide feedback because I am casual enough to not be bothered by changes in class design. To make a long story short my thoughts on the matter are more academic in nature, hence my original questions.

    I will say this much; after just a cursory scan of the forums, a lot of folks are saying what you are right now. Not that you needed validation, just mentioning it. Cheers!
    Last edited by taishar68; 2018-07-09 at 04:47 AM.
    "Can't you see this is the last act of a desperate man?"
    "We don't care if it's the first act of Henry the Fifth, we're leaving!"

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