BFA Havoc DH need change

[Deleted]

I used DH Havoc as main for almost all legion.
I've done a lot of key stones (my best is a 20 in time), raid (HC / MY) and a lot of pvp.
This spec, despite some problems, has amused me a lot.
I was lucky enough to have access to the alpha and then also to the beta.
It is since then (now more than 6 months) that I am trying, what will be the DH Havoc in bfa.
I tried all the possible builds and all the combinations given by the traits of the azerite armor.
If you ask me if I like the new DH, my answer is NO!

I am a supporter of this class, I like the lore, the look, the warglavas are really cool to see and I find the mobility that this class has very amusing.
The fun unfortunately ends here.

Some changes have been made which, in my opinion, have to be done (Passive CS and EB).

But in my opinion one of the biggest problems of DH, that is the way it generates fury (Demon Bite and Demon Blade) already problematic during legion but at least we had some legendary / tier sets that filled the holes but in Bfa losing all that and with the advent of the new GCD I was really puzzled not to see any review of this problem which leaves the DH with a really slow and boring game, even more than legion.
N.B.
why a skill like Hungering Glaive that is just what is missing from the rotation of the havoc continues to remain in the uncategoraized spell?
For those who are not aware:
Hungering Glaive:
(147.42% of Attack power) Chaos damage and weakening them to your Demon Blades / Demon Bite.
For 12 sec, Demon Blades / Demon Bite will generate the maximum amount of Fury and deal 200% increased damage against them.
Maybe in terms of numbers it's a bit OP, but at the mechanical level it's the missing link.

In addition, the AOE sector also seems to me very poor.
See that little bit of cleave we had disappeared into thin air and an AOE that outside of EB and FB (if you chose it) is really low.

Talents like Cycle of Hatrd, fel Mastery, trail of ruin, insatiable hunger etc. that would have been the case to revise as they are currently too weak.

the problem of momentum build!
Many players have enjoyed this build during EN and are excited to see it in BFA many others instead hate it (I'm not a big fan of the momentum, personally I preferred the demonic).
Unfortunately I find the new changes made to the momentum build not very effective due to the different factors:

- 1) Fel Rush 1 sec gcd and VR 0.5 gcd

- 2) the Fel Rush cd does not scale anymore on haste. Since there is no mechanical mechanism that returns a charge or decreases his cd, makes the build blocked.

-3) Applicability, in fact this can be a build that is well suited to low level content but when the difficulty of the encounter increases due to many mechanics to follow this build becomes too punitive and i fear it repeats the same error occurred in legion.

Talents like Demonic and Dark Slash that with the heavy weight of GCD were at least stretched (from 8 sec to 10 sec) to mitigate the problem and make it a little more effective.

I would have expected to see passive as DA and / or FOTS (instead of a trait of the azerite)become basic line skill what the DH really needs as this is a poor class of base-line passive.

Another sore point is the survival of this class that was one of the points that characterized the DH and that was excessively nerf making havoc too weak specially in PvP.

Even the features of the new system (Azerite) have not impressed me and they can not fix a game-play that really needs a boost.

I do not continue otherwise I go too far but I could list many other problems.

In general, some good work has been done on some classes like the new Fury War or the Demo Lock but on some the work done is really very questionable such as Havoc and the Shaman DPS classes this because during the 6 month alpha and beta, all the feedback received (some valid others maybe a little less) were really little considered and choices were made that often are in contrast to what the players preferred, preserving what was wrong (see Momentum for Havoc, build abandoned from the blizz after ToV because ineffective in many situations such as Raid HC / MY and that in BfA has returned overwhelmingly into vogue) and dismantling mechanics instead of being liked and more versatile.

By now we are too close to the launch of the expansion and deep changes to certain specs take time.
Why they were not done before when there was time?

I hope at least that with the 8.1 arrive sensible updates.

[Deleted]

I give a full feedback in the US forums.
But it is not blizzard only also the Havoc community. Some say momentum is the only building, other say demonsbite is the only way.

The problem is Havoc is the only class that needs talent to be playable. Because 50 %of the rotation the heal the off and defend mechanism comes from talent.

Havoc is atm same like rogues needs for stealth combo points and stuns talents.
All other classes have talents to make it smooth to play your way. Dh has talents to play a clunky way to do something atm because out of talents we have nothing

[Unholyground]

They should have given DH something similar to holy power they can generate on top of Fury and they could have balanced it a bit better than being a pure single resource generating class.

[Deleted]

I give a full feedback in the US forums.
But it is not blizzard only also the Havoc community. Some say momentum is the only building, other say demonsbite is the only way.

The problem is Havoc is the only class that needs talent to be playable. Because 50 %of the rotation the heal the off and defend mechanism comes from talent.

Havoc is atm same like rogues needs for stealth combo points and stuns talents.
All other classes have talents to make it smooth to play your way. Dh has talents to play a clunky way to do something atm because out of talents we have nothing

I write here because being a European player I do not have the possibility to post on US forums.
I agree with you and this is precisely the problem of this spec that base-line is practically nothing and that all the gameplay is via talents.
If you can not create a series of talents able to create beautiful synergies then throw away a whole spec further if you retouch a single talent this change is reflected in a drastic way on the whole spec that makes it difficult to balance.
This is why certain basic mechanics such as Demonic appetite and / or Demon Blade should be capitalized on the basic line and create talents that amplify their properties (as happened at the Pala Reti with Blade of Wrath).

[pay928]

But it is not blizzard only also the Havoc community. Some say momentum is the only building, other say demonsbite is the only way.

It would be solvable by adding a spec instead of being a 2 spec class. There could be one spec based on high movement gameplay (momentum) with demons blade, then another based around demonic and demon's bite.

[Deleted]

It would be solvable by adding a spec instead of being a 2 spec class. There could be one spec based on high movement gameplay (momentum) with demons blade, then another based around demonic and demon's bite.

Now is too late for this

[pay928]

Now is too late for this

I know. I'm just pointing out how the possibilities for DH dps just doens't work by trying to shove it into one spec, unlike other single dps spec classes. Blizzard are really just making tuning exceptionally hard by trying to allow both playstyles through talent choice alone.

[Deleted]

I know. I'm just pointing out how the possibilities for DH dps just doens't work by trying to shove it into one spec, unlike other single dps spec classes. Blizzard are really just making tuning exceptionally hard by trying to allow both playstyles through talent choice alone.

I also think like you .. a spec focused on the demonic and one on the momentum would have been a good thing .. would certainly have given more depth to both build .. they had to do at least 6 months ago .. I doubt that in the new expansion will happen something like that ..

[Deleted]

I write here because being a European player I do not have the possibility to post on US forums.
.

I'm from Austria. Every European player could talk on the US forum. You only have to download the US wow client and make a character on a server. After this lvl it to min 3.
Then you are allowed to post with this character. My character is a lvl 3 rogue.
I have done this in cata beta because their was only a blue response on the US forum.


This with the 2 specs one Momo and one demonic would be perfect.
But Blizzard says since the start of legion alpha they don't want a 3 build for the class. If they could go back in wow they would remove some other builds from classes.

[saidolol]

They should have given DH something similar to holy power they can generate on top of Fury and they could have balanced it a bit better than being a pure single resource generating class.

no thx. maybe a dot with little fury reg.

[rarhyx]

They should have given DH something similar to holy power .

HELL FUCKING NO
stay away with this shit
holy power is one the biggest bs blizzard produced

[Sarkol]

You guys are saying multiple builds doesn't work, but even though it's pre tuning, sims show that many builds actually do work and you can probably play what you enjoy. Thought that was the intent of the talent system as well? To offer choice? Why does it matter if DH's base toolkit is lacking anyway? Why is it a problem that you need talents to add to it?

[Xofa]

HELL FUCKING NO
stay away with this shit
holy power is one the biggest bs blizzard produced

Well said!!!

[RobertoCarlos]

making fel charge baseline would be a good start.

They just need some spells to fill out the rotation a bit

Throw in a proc that makes you use throw glaive so its not useless and does damage worth using the spell for - you know chance on auto attack or chaos strike to increase the next throw glaive by 200% but make it flavor/RP not just flat damage.

[Deleted]

I do not know about you but the more I play this new version, the more I do not like it.
I'm trying to make it go well but I just can't do it.
Momentum is a build that I've never liked since legion and I have no intention of playing it in BfA.
The demonic, however, is really ugly and slow and without real synergies with other talents.
Why did Blizz want to break it like this?
I'm really sad to see my favorite spec reduced so badly.

- - - Updated - - -

You guys are saying multiple builds doesn't work, but even though it's pre tuning, sims show that many builds actually do work and you can probably play what you enjoy. Thought that was the intent of the talent system as well? To offer choice? Why does it matter if DH's base toolkit is lacking anyway? Why is it a problem that you need talents to add to it?

The dh is the only class of the game that based on the talents that you (in the summit is the blizz) choose, the way you play changes drastically.
In fact, the momentum and the demonic are two very different builds in terms of game play.
So if the Demonic turns out to be at the level of numbers / mechanics lower than the momentum then you are forced to use an aspect of your class that you do not like in order to remain competitive.
As a result you do not have a real choice but you are forced to choose the talents that the blizz wants you to use.
They have decided that for the first phase of BfA you have to use the momentum build and then you will use the momentum.
Then maybe in the next xpatch will decide that the momentum is no longer good and improve the demonic then you will pass from momentum to the demonic even if you do not like the style.
It has been so in legion and it will be so also in BfA.

This happens for two reasons:

base line havoc does not have the tools for a rotation and therefore must rely on the talents in order to complete.
Apparently this is a choice desired by the blizz but at this point I do not know if this is still a winning choice.

The lack of a second spec dps.
This is because it is difficult to give depth to a class that base line does not have a game and in a single tree of talent graft 2 completely different styles of play.
It is as if the Mage has only a spec dps and in a single talent tree there is frost, arcane and fire specs.
But the blizz is not going to create the second spec dps for dh.

- - - Updated - - -

I do not know about you but the more I play this new version, the more I do not like it.
I'm trying to make it go well but I just can't do it.
Momentum is a build that I've never liked since legion and I have no intention of playing it in BfA.
The demonic, however, is really ugly and slow and without real synergies with other talents.
Why did Blizz want to break it like this?
I'm really sad to see my favorite spec reduced so badly.

- - - Updated - - -



The dh is the only class of the game that based on the talents that you (in the summit is the blizz) choose, the way you play changes drastically.
In fact, the momentum and the demonic are two very different builds in terms of game play.
So if the Demonic turns out to be at the level of numbers / mechanics lower than the momentum then you are forced to use an aspect of your class that you do not like in order to remain competitive.
As a result you do not have a real choice but you are forced to choose the talents that the blizz wants you to use.
They have decided that for the first phase of BfA you have to use the momentum build and then you will use the momentum.
Then maybe in the next xpatch will decide that the momentum is no longer good and improve the demonic then you will pass from momentum to the demonic even if you do not like the style.
It has been so in legion and it will be so also in BfA.

This happens for two reasons:

base line havoc does not have the tools for a rotation and therefore must rely on the talents in order to complete.
Apparently this is a choice desired by the blizz but at this point I do not know if this is still a winning choice.

The lack of a second spec dps.
This is because it is difficult to give depth to a class that base line does not have a game and in a single tree of talent graft 2 completely different styles of play.
It is as if the Mage has only a spec dps and in a single talent tree there are frost, arcane and fire specs.
But the blizz is not going to create the second spec dps for dh.

Also I understand legion being the dh a new class did not have years of data behind it.
But now, after all legions, there are many data to make decisions.
Instead, decisions were made that only make me say:
Why Blizz, Why?
I'll close it here and what will be, I'll play, even if I'm not very excited about the new expansion.

[Belturone]

Considering the fact that DH are blandish to play in the long run even in Legion, wielding legendaries and plethoras of synergistic passives through their artifact, going in BFA brace yourselves for the downgrade of the millenium gameplay-wise.


That much could be said in regard to many a spec, this awing trend having compromised so much of this expansion already.

[Kezuma]

Looks like dh continues to sacrifice everything even when thr burning legion and Sargeras are out of the picture

[Deleted]

That spell looks amazing, I hope they introduce it in 8.1 at least, dh need more buttons to press, not 1 every 8 secs.

[Not Againnn]

im actually having a lot of fun with the different specs you can work out... to each their own i guess

[kliffharry]

Been playing the beta with 3/2/3/1/2/1/2 at ilvl 320 and 12% haste and holy crab that fury regen. Did a total of 6 hc pugs yesterday and didn't experience a single moment where I just had to auto attack to get fury, more often am I struggling to dump the fury fast enough when I have the VR regen + good return on CS. This spec really flows so well and makes DH has its own feel to it.

I'm not a fan of Demon's Bite at all and much prefer Demonblades, and in a spec like this it would feel so clunky having to spam a builder. Imo this Havoc playstyle feels like EN but with quality of life improvements. Momentum isn't for everyone, but for those who want a unique playstyle that differs from other specs, it sure is fun. It's gonna be hard to play Momentum at high m+ levels and M raiding, but those who get good at it will be able to pull it off and shine where the rest goes Demonic