"The team is excited about the improvements to the gearing system"

[rebecca191]

Well I'm one of the people that doesn't see a single downside to personal loot so I can't sympathize. Usually you're able to trade personal loot items anyway so it doesn't affect the ability to give things to whoever needs it. Personally I think anyone who doesn't like it is just mad they don't have power over others anymore.

You can't trade items that are higher ilvl, even if they are bigger upgrade to someone else. That slows progression down for serious mythic guilds. This scenario is very likely to happen to multiple guilds, multiple times. due to the randomness of personal loot:

Week 1. A caster DPS gets BIS caster trinket. Everyone needed it equally, so that's fine.
Week 2. The same caster DPS gets BIS trinket again, but it warforges 5 ilvls higher. It is a 20 ilvl upgrade for several other casters. He can't trade it. With ML, if the trinket dropped two weeks in a row but with a 5 ilvl difference, it would not be given to the same person both times. Now, a drop has been wasted.

And that scenario is going to repeat multiple times with various items, as well as things like tanks and healers getting weapons or trinkets that are better for DPS, but can't be traded due to ilvl. And don't even get me started if they keep end boss mounts at 1 drop per kill... good luck ever seeing the end boss if you are a trial. Be careful what you wished for....

[Armourboy]

You can't trade items that are higher ilvl, even if they are bigger upgrade to someone else. That slows progression down for serious mythic guilds. This scenario is very likely to happen to multiple guilds, multiple times. due to the randomness of personal loot:

Week 1. A caster DPS gets BIS caster trinket. Everyone needed it equally, so that's fine.
Week 2. The same caster DPS gets BIS trinket again, but it warforges 5 ilvls higher. It is a 20 ilvl upgrade for several other casters. He can't trade it. With ML, if the trinket dropped two weeks in a row but with a 5 ilvl difference, it would not be given to the same person both times. Now, a drop has been wasted.

And that scenario is going to repeat multiple times with various items, as well as things like tanks and healers getting weapons or trinkets that are better for DPS, but can't be traded due to ilvl.

They won't care because lets be honest, they are selfish and want every reason they can find to keep it for themselves.

[Viper2005]

One good thing about removing ML: it does away with the tyrannical Loot Council system!

God I hate Loot Council.

[Lyvefire]

One good thing about removing ML: it does away with the tyrannical Loot Council system!

God I hate Loot Council.

How can people be this fucking dense?

Do you look at a drunk driving crash report and blame the car? If not, then maybe consider that you hated the people managing your loot council and that, maybe, just maybe, the system is fine? This assumes you ever were actually involved with one though and not just complaining about something you have no experience with.

A pretty big assumption.

[kamuimac]

Yep.

Not a bad way to slow down content completion rates as well meaning they dont have to stress about content droughts as much

and its a bad thing how ?

- - - Updated - - -

How can people be this fucking dense?

Do you look at a drunk driving crash report and blame the car? If not, then maybe consider that you hated the people managing your loot council and that, maybe, just maybe, the system is fine? This assumes you ever were actually involved with one though and not just complaining about something you have no experience with.

A pretty big assumption.

simply - power corrupts - and in case loot council too much power was given to players - so it had to be dealt with

its the fault of mythic guilds - before WoD loot council was outliner in most hardcore guilds - since WoD it was used even by guilds that barely killed 3-4 bosses in mythic

it was doomed since then

[pyro989898]

out of many Pros and cons of ML removal ,additionally why it was done , i find the consequence of ML removal will increase content duration , weak.

[Mixxy]

simply - power corrupts - and in case loot council too much power was given to players - so it had to be dealt with

its the fault of mythic guilds - before WoD loot council was outliner in most hardcore guilds - since WoD it was used even by guilds that barely killed 3-4 bosses in mythic

it was doomed since then

Jesus how old are you?

Handling the loot isn't like being some tyrannical overlord, making your guildies dance like puppets on strings for your entertainment. It's not some childish power fantasy; it's a job. The people handing out the loot are trusted, and have a responsibility, to make sure it gets into the hands of the people who will benefit the guild the most, and deserve it most. If they don't do this, the guild will absolutely not last long.

The Master Looter is someone trusted by the guilds to make the right call. Someone the guild will, as a whole, generally always agree with. If they didn't agree, the person wouldn't be the Master Looter.



And if you're thinking "OH BUT IT'S THE GUILD MASTER GIVING EVERYTHING TO HIS GIRLFRIEND IT'S SO UNFAIR WHAT AM I MEANT TO DO?!" How about leave the guild? Join one of the LITERALLY countless guilds that aren't run by a dipstick.
When you join a guild, you agree to its rules. If you remain in that guild, you continue to agree to its rules.

I can't believe how unfathomably selfish someone needs to be to actually, with complete sincerity, say: "I don't like this system because it can hypothetically be abused. I could just not use it... but that's not good enough, Blizzard! I demand you FORCE EVERYONE ELSE to use it too! That way I don't have to share!"

(Inb4 people start screaming "STRAWMAN! STRAWMAN!" at me without realising people in this very thread have been literally saying exactly that. That they love PL because they don't want to give stuff to other players. Because only their progress matters, fuck their guild.)

[Syncness]

Jesus how old are you?

Handling the loot isn't like being some tyrannical overlord, making your guildies dance like puppets on strings for your entertainment. It's not some childish power fantasy; it's a job. The people handing out the loot are trusted, and have a responsibility, to make sure it gets into the hands of the people who will benefit the guild the most, and deserve it most. If they don't do this, the guild will absolutely not last long.

The Master Looter is someone trusted by the guilds to make the right call. Someone the guild will, as a whole, generally always agree with. If they didn't agree, the person wouldn't be the Master Looter.



And if you're thinking "OH BUT IT'S THE GUILD MASTER GIVING EVERYTHING TO HIS GIRLFRIEND IT'S SO UNFAIR WHAT AM I MEANT TO DO?!" How about leave the guild? Join one of the LITERALLY countless guilds that aren't run by a dipstick.
When you join a guild, you agree to its rules. If you remain in that guild, you continue to agree to its rules.

I can't believe how unfathomably selfish someone needs to be to actually, with complete sincerity, say: "I don't like this system because it can hypothetically be abused. I could just not use it... but that's not good enough, Blizzard! I demand you FORCE EVERYONE ELSE to use it too! That way I don't have to share!"

(Inb4 people start screaming "STRAWMAN! STRAWMAN!" at me without realising people in this very thread have been literally saying exactly that. That they love PL because they don't want to give stuff to other players. Because only their progress matters, fuck their guild.)

I guess if people dislike PL so much, they can stop playing the game and vote with their wallets. Perhaps that'll teach Blizzard.

[Mixxy]

I guess if people dislike PL so much, they can stop playing the game and vote with their wallets. Perhaps that'll teach Blizzard.

If people really hated ML so much, maybe they should've just voted with their wallets and stopped playing. But that's not really an argument, is it?

Just because I don't like a direction WoW is taking doesn't mean I don't want to play it. I like WoW. That's why I criticise bad decisions. Because I want it to be good.
"Well if you don't like this one thing about a game, don't play it!" is stupid and counterproductive. So, what... I shouldn't play ANY game that has even a single thing in it I don't like? Guess I'd better just stop playing all video games then!

[Gasparde]

I guess if people dislike PL so much, they can stop playing the game and vote with their wallets. Perhaps that'll teach Blizzard.

Or Blizzard could just stop forcing changes onto everyone if the innate problem only affects so many people.
Why is it that I have to give up something I love instead of the developers stopping to fuck me in the ass so that casual Mike who's playing the game for 2h a week has a better time?

If people really hated ML so much, maybe they should've just voted with their wallets and stopped playing. But that's not really an argument, is it?

Well, they prolly did and that's why we got said changes.

[Syncness]

If people really hated ML so much, maybe they should've just voted with their wallets and stopped playing. But that's not really an argument, is it?

Just because I don't like a direction WoW is taking doesn't mean I don't want to play it. I like WoW. That's why I criticise bad decisions. Because I want it to be good.
"Well if you don't like this one thing about a game, don't play it!" is stupid and counterproductive. So, what... I shouldn't play ANY game that has even a single thing in it I don't like? Guess I'd better just stop playing all video games then!

Blizzard somehow came to the decision to remove ML, surely after reviewing data at their disposal. If there is a drop off in the amount of market this change affects then I'm sure Blizzard will roll back the change, cause money.

[SirCowdog]

How can people be this fucking dense?

Do you look at a drunk driving crash report and blame the car? If not, then maybe consider that you hated the people managing your loot council and that, maybe, just maybe, the system is fine? This assumes you ever were actually involved with one though and not just complaining about something you have no experience with.

A pretty big assumption.

"Cars are involved with drunk drivers, so we take cars away from EVERYONE! How do we know this is perfect? Because if there are no cars then no one can ever be a drunk driver!"

That was satire, btw. But that's the kind of logic people are using to defend removing personal loot. All they're looking at is the one benefit, while completely ignoring everything else that cars do when used responsibly and correctly.

[Isilarya]

Honestly the entire thing is probably just to slow down gearing. Personal doesnt let you trade if its your highest ilvl for that slot, so split raids die because you can use your alts to gear your raids mains in separate raids, but even within your main core odds are high you wont be doing trades for like a month or so.

Why do they want to slow down this process this much who knows but the top end guilds are either going to be clearing with a lot less gear or the races are going to slow down ALOT. This is also going to slow down the nontop 100 guilds to an even greater degree, hell maybe they are just taking a shot at making the tiers last longer by making the gearing process a hell of alot slower.

[SirCowdog]

Why do they want to slow down this process this much who knows

Money.

Between monthly subs and the gold token the lion's share of WoW's profit is still subscription-based. If content takes longer to consume it means more profits from that revenue stream. MAUs also increase, making it look better to the shareholders.

It also means they don't have to release content quite as often, which translates to a more efficient development cycle in terms of money spent on development vs profits generated.

In short: Anything that Blizzard can do to slow things down generally results in more money for them. There's definitely a point of diminishing returns to this, but the more they can blur that point with spin the better. For example: Telling players that removing ML is being done for the benefit of the players rather than for profit.

- - - Updated - - -

I really wish people would stop saying this. Because it's the exact opposite - very specific conditions are required for loot to NOT be tradeable.

One equipment slot it taken up permanently by the Heart of Azeroth(neck), same as the artifact weapon in Legion, so that's no different.

THREE equipment slots are taken up by Azerite gear(Head/Shoulders/Chest). You might initially think this isn't much different than Legendary pieces taking up 2 slots. But lets look a little closer:

Once you obtain a legendary in Legion, it's generally the highest iLVL item for that slot. Meaning that you don't really need any further upgrades for that slot. However, you might backfill a slot that you have a legendary for if you need to switch roles for any given situation(AoE vs Single target, for example). But those slots could be filled via trading or loot council, or on your own.

But for Azerite gear, those three equipment slots(Head/Shoulder/Chest) can NEVER be traded for in BfA, since Azerite gear can not be traded. Which means ANY drops for those equipment slots are denied trading. Ever. Even if we compare 2 legendaries to 3 Azerite pieces, that's still a net loss.

That leaves:

Cloak
Bracers
Gloves
Belt
Pants
Boots
Rings x2
Trinkets x2

Weapons

All of which are subject to WF/TF except weapons, which don't TF in BfA. Titanforging is a mixed blessing. On the one hand a TF drop will almost certainly not be tradeable due to the ilvl increase. Meaning that if you already have a BiS item, but gain a TF version of the same, you have to take it instead of giving it to someone else(for who it would be a MASSIVE upgrade). But once you have a TF item in a slot, chances are exceptionally low for you to get an upgrade of higher iLVL in that same slot until a later difficulty or raid tier.

So lets break down the conditions under which a trade would actually happen:

1) You get a drop at all.
2) The drop is non-Azerite
3) The drop is not an iLVL upgrade(TF interferes with this).
4) The drop is something another raid member can actually use(same class, same armor type, same role, etc)
5) The drop is actually an upgrade for that raid member in the same slot of the drop.

So while you might be getting more overall drops in absolute terms using PL, the number of viable trades isn't going to be nearly as high as you might expect. Before you can trade you'll have to get a duplicate drop that isn't TF in 1 of 12 possible slots(11 if you use a two-handed weapon such as a staff or bow). Obviously the more drops you get, the more likely it is that RNG will give you something you can trade. But in the earlier stages of progression, chances are VERY good that you will be getting a lot of personal iLVL upgrades that can't be traded.

If you see any flaws with my analysis, or something I completely missed, keep it civil please. I want to have a good understanding of this situation, and we'll only get there if people think before posting.

[nocturnus]

Blizzard somehow came to the decision to remove ML, surely after reviewing data at their disposal. If there is a drop off in the amount of market this change affects then I'm sure Blizzard will roll back the change, cause money.

But there probably won't be. It's the vocal minority of an already microscopically small part of the player base that's weeping about this change along with a handful of the same people in every thread that broaches the subejct. Chances are that anyone that's anyone will completely forget about ML a few weeks into BFA. Discrepancies in progression rates will probably not even be discernible.

http://blog.askmrrobot.com/personal-vs-master-loot-bfa/
http://blog.askmrrobot.com/master-lo...uman-feelings/

[burek]

Money.

Between monthly subs and the gold token the lion's share of WoW's profit is still subscription-based. If content takes longer to consume it means more profits from that revenue stream. MAUs also increase, making it look better to the shareholders.

It also means they don't have to release content quite as often, which translates to a more efficient development cycle in terms of money spent on development vs profits generated.

In short: Anything that Blizzard can do to slow things down generally results in more money for them. There's definitely a point of diminishing returns to this, but the more they can blur that point with spin the better. For example: Telling players that removing ML is being done for the benefit of the players rather than for profit.

Mythic guilds raid the entire tier regardless. Killing split raids does not equal more MAU/money. And if you think they are going to slow down their patch release cycle, right after saying how legion was a success because of the constant patch stream, you are stupid. The steady stream of updates is what kept people playing and brought them money.

[SirCowdog]

Mythic guilds raid the entire tier regardless. Killing split raids does not equal more MAU/money.

The change to gearing effects EVERYONE, not just mythic raiders. Across the entire playerbase, PL will cause players to take more time to gear up, thus increasing MAU's. Killing split raids will slow down progress of hardcore mythic raiders, giving Blizzard better control and predict top-end raid progression as a side effect of slowing the ENTIRE playerbase down. Killing ML for ALL raid levels does the same to a larger array of players.

And if you think they are going to slow down their patch release cycle, right after saying how legion was a success because of the constant patch stream, you are stupid. The steady stream of updates is what kept people playing and brought them money.

Just because there's a constant stream of content doesn't necessarily means it's the same as the rate of that stream. An illustration would be the difference between your garden hose and a firehose. Don't think in terms of absolutes or over-exaggerations. Even if they continue to release content at the exact same rate as they did in Legion, if it takes players longer ON AVERAGE to consume it, it's a net benefit to Blizzard.

Whether they release content slower, or it takes players longer to consume it, it's the same effect.

[burek]

The change to gearing effects EVERYONE, not just mythic raiders. Across the entire playerbase, PL will cause players to take more time to gear up, thus increasing MAU's. Killing split raids will slow down progress of hardcore mythic raiders, giving Blizzard better control and predict top-end raid progression as a side effect of slowing the ENTIRE playerbase down. Killing ML for ALL raid levels does the same to a larger array of players.

The only ones complaining about removing ML are mythic raiders, and as I've said, they raid the entire tier regardless of how quickly they manage to complete it, so there is no MAUs to be gained from them. And the rest of the playerbase is not really going to be slowed down. The efficiency of ML in lower levels of raiding is questionable, and you have no proof if it's better or not for players in a normal raiding guild. They will be better off without the hassle, and they don't seem to complain about the change.

Blizzard having better control and prediction is a good thing, that means a better designed game instead of a shitshow like we had with EN or KJ.

Just because there's a constant stream of content doesn't necessarily means it's the same as the rate of that stream. An illustration would be the difference between your garden hose and a firehose. Don't think in terms of absolutes or over-exaggerations. Even if they continue to release content at the exact same rate as they did in Legion, if it takes players longer ON AVERAGE to consume it, it's a net benefit to Blizzard.

Whether they release content slower, or it takes players longer to consume it, it's the same effect.

It won't take anyone longer to consume anything, and they have no reason to suddenly slow down with raid releases. The world first race is not going to last a month, it will last as it always did. They want it to last a week or two, and they want a tier to last 5-6 months. And completion rates of raids are not going to change either, they have direct control over them with tuning and nerfs.

Legion was the fastest expansion yet when it comes to content releases, and you are worrying about slowing down, like WTF.

[Mafic]

Their obsession with MAU and how BFA will launch is a perfect storm of being an epic tale of how not to manage a subscription based MMORPG. Personal loot is going to cause massive problems for gearing for PVE and PVP players. Legion was able to hide this because of weapon artifacts but in BFA weapon drops are scarce and very important for many specs.

[rrayy]

Their obsession with MAU and how BFA will launch is a perfect storm of being an epic tale of how not to manage a subscription based MMORPG. Personal loot is going to cause massive problems for gearing for PVE and PVP players. Legion was able to hide this because of weapon artifacts but in BFA weapon drops are scarce and very important for many specs.

The game hasn't gone live yet, so you have absolutely no clue what is going to happen. It is beyond idiotic to make claims of fact what is going to happen in a game that hasn't even been released yet.