Are Kael'thas Sunstrider and Garrosh Hellscream in hell?

[Aucald]

And Odyn is a being of the Light and its through the bright lense of the Light that Odyn sees things. He mightve, as you say, just seen what he could see.

I'm unsure I would say that Odyn is himself a "being of the Light." He appears to be able to use it, but he certainly doesn't cleave to the various altruistic philosophies we've seen typically associated with veneration of the Light as a concept. Odyn is a Warrior paragon, believing in valor above all, even above and beyond the bonds of external loyalties. For Odyn it seems might truly makes right, and that's not a concept that would seem very in line with the general position of the Light.

[Combatbutler]

For Odyn it seems might truly makes right, and that's not a concept that would seem very in line with the general position of the Light.

The light follows the one true path ,to ensure it comes to fruition, I am very certain any kind of force would be used.

[Aucald]

The light follows the one true path to ensure that the one true path to fruition, I am very certain any kind of force would be used.

But it also espouses unity and cooperation on the transcendental level - e.g. "all are one within the Light." Odyn, on the other hand, exhorts Alliance to slay Horde soldiers and Horde to slay the Alliance in the name of valor in Stormheim. I don't see those two approaches as fundamentally compatible.

[Combatbutler]

But it also espouses unity and cooperation on the transcendental level - e.g. "all are one within the Light." Odyn, on the other hand, exhorts Alliance to slay Horde soldiers and Horde to slay the Alliance in the name of valor in Stormheim. I don't see those two approaches as fundamentally compatible.

Unity and cooperation is also impossible with everyone, ultimately it either leads to slaughter of the opposition or if the visions hold a grain of truth eternal imprisonment. Odyn, the Light, the void , Sylvanas, the lich king etc. each of them is an extremist and will almost do anything to accomplish their defined goal. In Odyn's case his valor fueled army to protect the world no matter the cost, the light following the one true patch, The Lk keeping the undead chained and enslaved, Sylvanas trying to build an undead utopia ruled with an iron fist, the void trying to corrupt and consume the universe etc.

[Noomz]

I imagine the Shadowlands to be a world of imagery and symbology, not necessarily a literal presentation as it were. We know that Arthas' lingering humanity was represented by a child previously (e.g. "Matthias Lehner" in the various quests about how Arthas became the Lich King), so it would scan that his human aspect being tortured in the Shadowlands might also take the appearance of his child self. This could also be a reflection of how Sylvanas herself saw "the boy who would be King," or an interface of the two notions together.

Yeah I’m starting to think the Shadowlands is just some place in between all the other places that can be entered by any other force and manipulated by any other force. And that that is what’s being done by the Void, sneaking in there and having its way with the souls wandering this mirror world. And in doing so, it drives the fears of the living or unliving, manipulating them.
The Light, the Void and all the other magics that influence life and deaths outcome, have the Shadowlands as some kind of place where they tally for the souls.

[Melsiren]

Hell in WoW is just sitting at the Spirit Rezzer with no countdown until resurrection.

You just sit there. Waiting. Forever.

I always thought Warcract hell was the Highelf Megathread.

[Aucald]

Unity and cooperation is also impossible with everyone, ultimately it either leads to slaughter of the opposition or if the visions hold a grain of truth eternal imprisonment. Odyn, the Light, the void , Sylvanas, the lich king etc. each of them is an extremist and will almost do anything to accomplish their defined goal. In Odyn's case his valor fueled army to protect the world no matter the cost, the light following the one true patch, The Lk keeping the undead chained and enslaved, Sylvanas trying to build an undead utopia ruled with an iron fist, the void trying to corrupt and consume the universe etc.

The Void is actually dead-set against a "one true path," however - seeing all paths as equally valid and paradoxically true, even if the result of accepting this is a madness unto itself. I'm not sure I would call Odyn an extremist, either; though he has gone to extremes at times his general personality doesn't seem like the grim and persevering sort one generally associates with extremism. I believe that Odyn isn't quite "all there" in the strictest sense - he pursues his strategies with the solipsism of a being that doesn't recognize other things besides his will truly exist in the world. That is why he was content to ride roughshod over Helya's free will, and why when the other Keeepers didn't see eye to eye with him he essentially took his proverbial ball and went home, creating the Halls of Valor and going ahead with the Valarjar as if to say "well fine, I'll just do what I want anyways, I don't need you lot." Odyn is a quintessential man-child playing god.

[Combatbutler]

The Void is actually dead-set against a "one true path," however - seeing all paths as equally valid and paradoxically true, even if the result of accepting this is a madness unto itself. I'm not sure I would call Odyn an extremist, either; though he has gone to extremes at times his general personality doesn't seem like the grim and persevering sort one generally associates with extremism. I believe that Odyn isn't quite "all there" in the strictest sense - he pursues his strategies with the solipsism of a being that doesn't recognize other things besides his will truly exist in the world. That is why he was content to ride roughshod over Helya's free will, and why when the other Keeepers didn't see eye to eye with him he essentially took his proverbial ball and went home, creating the Halls of Valor and going ahead with the Valarjar as if to say "well fine, I'll just do what I want anyways, I don't need you lot." Odyn is a quintessential man-child playing god.

I'd say Odyn already got what he wanted, which is why there is hardly any real conflict surrounding him nowadays, he had thousands of years to eradicate his opposition and to brainwash the Vry'kul into some pseudo cult of the damned, the only loose end in modern times left was Helya.

[Noomz]

I'm unsure I would say that Odyn is himself a "being of the Light." He appears to be able to use it, but he certainly doesn't cleave to the various altruistic philosophies we've seen typically associated with veneration of the Light as a concept. Odyn is a Warrior paragon, believing in valor above all, even above and beyond the bonds of external loyalties. For Odyn it seems might truly makes right, and that's not a concept that would seem very in line with the general position of the Light.

And valor is a virtue of the Light. His magic is Light magic.
Odyn doesnt care about the Alliance or the Horde, he enforces order. He subjugated. As seen with the Valkyr, they werent given a choice. He doesnt ask for permission. Thats what the Light, in its more malign expressions, seems to be about. Enforcing order and its virtues. As also seen with Xera and Illidan. You’re either with them, or youre against them.

That not all Light users are like this is because theyre still good people with their own judgement and their own freedoms still intact. In the case of Yrel, we see that they’ve gone too far in their Light worship and become oppressive and forceful. But they do think theyre doing the right thing.
Odyn is also a Titan creation and they are enforcers of order that arent always good with emotions, but forceful and calculating.

[Combatbutler]

And valor is a virtue of the Light. His magic is Light magic.

Light magic is not an indicator of anything really, you only need willpower to wield it, the moment one becomes lightforged, then it gets tricky. Valor is not necessarily a trait of the light, especially, since its agents have no qualms supporting beings like Illidan or stand by as entire world burn.

[Noomz]

Light magic is not an indicator of anything really, you only need willpower to wield it, the moment one becomes lightforged, then it gets tricky. Valor is not necessarily a trait of the light, especially, since its agents have no qualms supporting beings like Illidan or stand by as entire world burn.

The Light embodies virtues like valor, honor, altruism and so on. It’s followers all commit to them in some way, even if they apply them by methods that arent good.
The Light is also Order, and it will attempt to enforce order and pacification even through forceful means.

Illidan was supported for the greater good and we almost saw Illidan forcibly changed to a Lightforged, which was the plan all along by supporting him. The Light saw The One True Path and planned to enforce it, making sure even Illidan went back onto the True Path. The Lights notions of forgiveness and such arent really altruistic but simply...what it deems it to be.
Thats why a faction like the Scarlet Crusade did what it did. They believed themselves righteous, true and valorous. Thats all that is needed.

[Combatbutler]

The Light embodies virtues like valor, honor, altruism and so on. It’s followers all commit to them in some way, even if they apply them by methods that arent good.
The Light is also Order, and it will attempt to enforce order and pacification even through forceful means.

Illidan was supported for the greater good and we almost saw Illidan forcibly changed to a Lightforged, which was the plan all along by supporting him. The Light saw The One True Path and planned to enforce it, making sure even Illidan went back onto the True Path. The Lights notions of forgiveness and such arent really altruistic but simply...what it deems it to be.
Thats why a faction like the Scarlet Crusade did what it did. They believed themselves righteous, true and valorous. Thats all that is needed.

Valor is meaningless, just as honor righteousness and the like, simply because it isn't defined each and every person has another concept of these things. The light is literally like a cult trying to lull in everyone in its warm embrace with good feelings, stripping away any kind of freedom.

[Deleted]

What I wonder is if Kael'Thas was a Deon the second time we killed him and if so, did he simply respawn in the nether or where ever it is Demons return to after being killed on Azeroth?

[Combatbutler]

What I wonder is if Kael'Thas was a Deon the second time we killed him and if so, did he simply respawn in the nether or where ever it is Demons return to after being killed on Azeroth?

He looked very much like a wretched. The more interesting question is considering blizz track record which undead faction will dig up his corpse.

[Aucald]

I'd say Odyn already got what he wanted, which is why there is hardly any real conflict surrounding him nowadays, he had thousands of years to eradicate his opposition and to brainwash the Vry'kul into some pseudo cult of the damned, the only loose end in modern times left was Helya.

I'm not sure that Odyn himself knows what he wants, anymore - now with the restrictions Helya had placed on him lifted, it will be interesting to note how he interacts with an Azeroth that has for the most part moved beyond the need of Keepers or their Keeping.

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And valor is a virtue of the Light. His magic is Light magic.
Odyn doesnt care about the Alliance or the Horde, he enforces order. He subjugated. As seen with the Valkyr, they werent given a choice. He doesnt ask for permission. Thats what the Light, in its more malign expressions, seems to be about. Enforcing order and its virtues. As also seen with Xera and Illidan. You’re either with them, or youre against them.

That not all Light users are like this is because theyre still good people with their own judgement and their own freedoms still intact. In the case of Yrel, we see that they’ve gone too far in their Light worship and become oppressive and forceful. But they do think theyre doing the right thing.
Odyn is also a Titan creation and they are enforcers of order that arent always good with emotions, but forceful and calculating.

Valor is a single tenet of the Light, but alone and without context represents little to nothing. I do think Odyn believes what he's doing is for the right reasons, or at least in the best interest of Azeroth, but I'm still uncertain that aligns him with the Light in any real way (except perhaps in the most indirect of senses).

[Dalheim]

Few options.

Garrosh is probably with his ancestors with all the other Orcs like Grom, Golmash, his mother, Blackhand, Orgrim, Durotan...

or

Garrosh is in the Nexus (Heroes of the Storm realm)... you never know what crazy stuff Blizzard does.

This I wonder. Wouldn't he end up in the Alternate Universe ancestors, and not his own? Timey-wimey stuff...

[Huntaer]

They went to the Nexus

[Noomz]

Valor is meaningless, just as honor righteousness and the like, simply because it isn't defined each and every person has another concept of these things. The light is literally like a cult trying to lull in everyone in its warm embrace with good feelings, stripping away any kind of freedom.

Yeah the Light seems to work like a drug.

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I'm not sure that Odyn himself knows what he wants, anymore - now with the restrictions Helya had placed on him lifted, it will be interesting to note how he interacts with an Azeroth that has for the most part moved beyond the need of Keepers or their Keeping.

- - - Updated - - -



Valor is a single tenet of the Light, but alone and without context represents little to nothing. I do think Odyn believes what he's doing is for the right reasons, or at least in the best interest of Azeroth, but I'm still uncertain that aligns him with the Light in any real way (except perhaps in the most indirect of senses).

He’s a being of Light because he wields it and created creatures, the Valkyr, that are creatures of Light magic. Thats my reasoning anyway. He might not be doing the Lights bidding no, but I do believe it guides him. Like it would anyone that uses it.

[Steampunkette]

Odyn is a Titan Keeper. Like the Titans, themselves, he is a being of the Arcane. Of Order in the Universe. He might sometimes use the Light, but it isn't what he is.

He may Stylize himself as a being of the light. He may present his Val'kyr as shining lightbound entities. But he uses the Light like a Mage uses Fire. At their core, the Val'kyr are still undead beings. There is no appreciable difference, lorewise, between the "Sun-Touched" Val'kyr and the Scourge Val'kyr. They even use the same model with a color palette swap, unlike the concept of the Lightforged Undead Calia Menethil, who will apparently be "Stiff" in appearance but otherwise whole.

Helya even has her own Val'kyr, blue as the Scourge's. Though she never interacted with Arthas, to our knowledge.

[Smokinya]

There is no hell in the WoW universe only the Shadowlands.

Whats really interesting with this picture is that the Void Lords are before the Old Gods but after the Shadow element of the world. This would insinuate that their are Lords for every single one of the elements (Order, Death, Disorder and Life) would it not? It seems kind of weird that certain aspects just have Lords ruling over the underlings while others don't.