Why are the Horde always the aggressors

[Izenhart]

Usually, as history goes, every deed considered morally evil done by a member of the races forming the Horde is unequivocally attached to the Horde itself.


If Garrosh creates so much of a different Horde to give it a different name, kicks you out, and you have to start a Civil War over it, it's still Horde.

If the Queen of the Elves calls Sargeras to Azeroth because she wants his children (for real), then it doesn't count because "that wasn't the alliance yet" or "but she acted independently".

Human Mage Kel'Thuzad and Human Paladin Arthas also were not alliance, just some renegades acting on their own, while Putress at the Wrathgate was "Horde".

The Cult of the Damned might be comprised for 99% of Alliance races only, that still doesn't make it an Alliance evil deed, obviously!

The leader of the Church of Light being the 2nd in command of the Twilight Hammer also casts absolutely no bad light on the Alliance, yet another independent madman, unlike the orcs, it doesn't matter if they were deceived into drinking demon blood, it's still their fault.

Gul'Dan is the orc with a demon as his master and proceeds to deceive an entire faction into destruction? Horde!

Medivh is the human with a demon as his master and proceeds to deceive an entire faction into destruction? Neutral character!

The de-facto co-leader of the Night Elves in the ever-lasting absence of both Malfurion and Cenarius, Fandral Staghelm, being the leader of the Druids of the Flame, an elven cult, and 2nd in command of Ragnaros, is also yet another independent act completely detached from anything remotely alliance and for which the alliance deserves no critique, not like draenor orcs! deceived by eredar leaders? made drink demon blood? excuses! it's an evil act of the Horde!

Daelin Proudmoore racist war on Durotar was a misunderstanding, so was the purging of Dalaran and Garithos attempted genocide of the blood elves.

[CrazyShrum]

First War, started by the Horde... Second War, started by the Horde... All of the faction conflicts during Cata, started by the Horde... Battle for Azeroth, started by the Horde...

Why can't the Alliance be the aggressors for once? Would be nice if the Horde wasn't always shoehorned into the role of bad guys and Alliance into the role of good guys.

Medivh (Human) Opened the portal and started all this from the Azeroth.

Illidan (Alliance NE) Burning Crusade...

Arthas (Alliance) All that shit he did in Wrath.

Arthas (Alliance) Made Sylvanas what she is.

Queen Azshara ... Product of Azeroth

All this from the corrupted world of Azeroth and emanating from the Alliance IMO...Maybe your world is the problem.

I'm just a horde trying to survive and clean up the Alliance mess.

[Tarba]

Only source I could find on when the Battle for Undercity was actually made available ingame states it was 3.3.
"Added in patch 3.3.0.10772"

Keep in mind, I'm not talking about Wrath Gate. I'm talking about the Undercity scenario.

You could have push your investigation into reading the comments 3.0.1/3.0.3...
And if it's not enought, you can see that those quests too, for exemple, are "added in patch 3.3"
http://www.wowhead.com/quest=12224/the-korkron-vanguard
http://www.wowhead.com/quest=12500/return-to-angrathar

And it would have made no sense at all to do it in patch 3.3.
This was following directly after wrathgate event when everyone was leveling in 3.0

[Mixxy]

One would think the most elite special ops organization the Alliance has would inform their new arrivals that the operation has been made and that the Horde is on high alert.

I mean... Nolan Speed does tell you that you're going to be fighting against "overwhelming odds," and that he needs someone "who can make it in and out alive."

I dunno about you but that sounds like a warning that operation is gonna be hella dangerous to me.

You could have push your investigation into reading the comments 3.0.1/3.0.3...
And it would have made no sense at all to do it in patch 3.3.
This was following directly after wrathgate event when everyone was leveling.

I did look at the comments but it can hard to gauge with PTR testing phases futzing with times people experience content vs times that the content is actually released. Hence my asking which actually went live first.

[Mehrunes]

1. The history is an alliance expeditionary force of dwarves was looking for resources and was attacked by the horde they didn't know it was the horde's until after that but the horde made any concept of peace impossible.

I literally quoted you an Allaince quest in which the Stormpikes express that they were aware it was Frostwolf territory. They just found the Frostwolf response to be wrong, because in typical Alliance entitlement they thought they can waltz in into Horde territory to dig shit up, just like they did in Mulgore and the Barrens in Vanilla. But Dwarven entitlement does not create any obligation on the Forstwolves to react to an enemy force walking into their land in the way the Dwarves wanted.

2. Nope still started by wrathgate at which point Varian saw the atrocities inside UC such as lobotomized human slaves. Hm slaves gosh wasn't Varian a slave but hey he didn't get lobotomized so he should just get out of the way for the horde lols

You're arguing against Chronicle v3 right now, at which point you can just as well admit to the world your argument is worthless and write a warning in your sig about how arguing with you may be a waste of time.

Also, Wrathgate wasn't Horde's doing and Varian seeing things in a city he had no right to be in in the first place does not justify his declaration of war.Also, there's a fuckton of humans that are hostile to the Horde and the Alliance throwing distance from Undercity. Stormwind humans? Not so much. Not that the slave in question would be there during the Battle for the Undercity, because the population that was not part of Putress' and Varimathras' posse escaped. And that included the apothecary who owns that woman.

3. There is everything to support the notion because the alliance spies the horde find aren't killing miners and don't attack until you literally run across them. I know because it was annoying doing on my horde characters.

Which changes squat and addresses squat in regards to my argument. Those spies haven't been found at the start of the Alliance questline yet. Otherwise the quest-giver, a member of an elite special force, would inform their newly arrived agent of that circumstance. Also, who made any statement about those spies killing Goblins? Wasn't me, so congrats on slaying that straw-man.

4. Lol Ashenvale was invaded because the Night Elves would only trade the horde naturally felled trees and garrosh wanted.

Which changes nothing in regards to that invasion starting only a year after the war started. Also, The Shattering clearly says how the Night Elves broke the trade treaty over Wrathgate. I could quote that to you too if you want, though given your track record so far, I'd say it'd be somewhat pointless.

You know for such an "authority" you should really get a clue what you are talking about.

I literally quoted book snippets to you and you attempted to shittiliy handwave them away, so this is nothing short of laughable.

5. I already said the alliance was the aggressor in stormheim it's 1 of 5 and it could be argued to go back to oh idk Sylvanas killing Genn's son causing him to want to destroy her forever.

It could be also argued that different wars are different. Also, it's not all you said. You said @Allora was only "semi-accurate" about it. Which is nonsense.

[Mixxy]

If Garrosh creates so much of a different Horde to give it a different name, kicks you out, and you have to start a Civil War over it, it's still Horde.

I'm not replying to this to argue with you - because I do agree that factions shouldn't be blamed for the actions of individuals just because they're the same race - I do have a few little nitpicks. First, Garrosh's actions were representative of the Horde. At least, right up until the end. Just because he changed a lot of how it worked didn't mean it wasn't still the Horde. Everything he did after the rest of the Horde started opposing him, however, is on him. Not the Horde as a whole.
So, basically, everything until Garrosh expelled all non-Orcs from Orgrimmar is still the actions of the Horde. The Darkspear Uprising and onwards, though, yeah. Stuff Garrosh did after that point is him, not the Horde.

If the Queen of the Elves calls Sargeras to Azeroth because she wants his children (for real), then it doesn't count because "that wasn't the alliance yet" or "but she acted independently".

Human Mage Kel'Thuzad and Human Paladin Arthas also were not alliance, just some renegades acting on their own, while Putress at the Wrathgate was "Horde".

And now just to nitpick for fun. Again, I'm not saying this is true, I'm just making a point for funzies.

Azshara wasn't a Night Elf. She was Highborne. A seperate subrace of elves that came to become the Night Elves, Nightborne, and High Elves. And the High Elves became Blood Elves.
In fact, the Night Elves of today are made up primarily of Elves who opposed Azshara's actions, meaning that the Blood Elves are actually MORE to blame for the War of the Ancients than Night Elves are. And the Nightborne came to join the Horde fairly recently.
AND all Elves originally came from Trolls.
So three different Horde races are "responsible" for the War of the Ancients, while only ONE Alliance race is.

And as for Kel'thuzad and Arthas... they were both being controlled by Ner'zul. Who was, formerly, an Orc. So I guess all of Wrath is the Horde's fault!



The point I'm trying to make is, ultimately, that I agree with you. Blaming factions for the actions of one person who happens to be the same race is stupid.
The thing with characters like Genn, Garrosh, Sylvanas, and Varian however... is they aren't just one person. They are (were, in Garrosh's case) the leaders of their respective factions. Their actions do speak for the people that follow them.

[Deleted]

Current Blizzard doesn't know how to write the Christian Friendship Allaince as villian so makes the Horde monsters and says it's gray

[Mehrunes]

And yet when the Horde player arrives, the questgiver for some magical reason doesn't mention anything about the Alliance spies are killing everyone and blowing up valuable shredders and stealing precious resources. You'd think just one of those would warrant a mention, but nope... they're just "sneaking around," and the Horde player is tasked with indiscriminately murdering them in order to prevent them from learning anything about the mining operation.

Skulking around already conveys they are doing shady shit. You're trying to make a point out of the Horde quest-giver not specifying what shady shit they were up to as if it changed anything at that point. The Alliance already breached their territory and engaged in hostile actions by that very face. Nothing else was needed.

Not mentioning anything whatsoever about the first Alliance spies meeting any hostile reaction from the Horde on the other hand does not convey anything about those spies being dead.

But hey, I guess the Horde doesn't actually value the lives of any of their helpless workers, or the cost of their equipment being destroyed, as long as they get the job done and get Sylvanas her precious superweapon. I guess Nathanos couldn't give half a shit about the lives and safety of all those Goblins, as long as the Alliance doesn't manage to get their hands on any Azerite. At least, that's what you're effectively claiming by insisting that the Alliance started attacking first. No "save our people" or "protect our stuff"... just a simple, mindless, vengeful "GO KILL THEM."

Yes? Are you really trying to build your brilliant narrative upon the notion that Nathanos ever gave a shit about anything other than Nathanos and Sylvanas? He treats even the player with utter disdain and we're the champions of the Horde.

Just building a camp and plonking down a flag doesn't make it your territory. Silithus is the territory of the Cenarian Circle, a neutral faction.

Cenarion Circle completely lost control over Silithus thanks to Sargeras. Also, building a camp and planting down a flag kinda does make your camp your territory. Especially since Cenarion Circle never owned the entirety of Silithus to begin with. Horde already had a camp in the zone all the way back to Vanilla. And they used that camp to, lo and behold, gather resources. So do tell me more about how the Horde couldn't settle there.

Yes, the Alliance were sneaking into Horde camps, but those camps themselves were in neutral territory.

And if I park my car on a public parking, that gives Alliance geniuses the right to get into it

You can't just march into a neutral state, plonk down a flag and claim "I OWN THIS PARK NOW."

Good thing Silithus isn't a state then.

Maybe not, but just because the Horde didn't like that the Alliance was looking at them (again, in neutral territory) doesn't magically give the Horde the right to just start murdering them. If it was on Horde soil, maybe, but Silithus isn't Horde soil, no matter how many little tents they put up.
And in regards to Silithus' size, sure it's big but the Azerite deposits seem to be forming, for now, almost exclusively in the area that the Horde has set up shop in. The Alliance couldn't just "go elsewhere" and find some, because there isn't any appearing elsewhere yet.

Just because Silithus itself is neutral (in game terms no less, but who'd ever pay attention to that) doesn't make Horde camp neutral territory. That applies to all faction outposts in neutral zones. If I walk into Alliance outpost in Desolace and the guard NPCs attack me, would Alliance start the war? No, because that's not how this works.

As such, Horde camp belonging to the Horde does give Horde forces every right under under the sun to start murdering enemy forces engaging in hostile behavior against their territory.

"If someone's planning on stealing something, just ask them. They're sure to tell you the truth!"

Obviously you're not going to direct a similar remark to your own point, even though as you yourself admit here, the Alliance behaved like aggressive shitstains towards the Horde during Legion which in turn means the Horde had no reason to believe or trust the Alliance with a sack of sand, let alone Azerite.

Yes, Genn and Rogers were way out of line when they attacked, they had explicit orders to follow and observe only. But they had those orders because the Alliance knew Sylvanas was up to something. So, again, that was still a result of Sylvanas' need for power and immortality, and refusal to communicate or cooperate with her allies.

The Horde isn't allied with the Alliance. If that was the case, there'd be no Horde, just the Alliance. Because alliance. And, just as in case of Silithus, the Horde isn't obligated to tell the Alliance shit. Even the time of day, even when Alliance actually asks them for time rather than attacking because "ermahgerd, the people that aren't our subjects don't want to communicate with us". And the Horde choosing to do so gives the Alliance no justification whatsoever to attack the Horde.

She obtained knowledge about Eyir and the Val'kyr and rather than making any of it known, she thought "I'm gonna secretly take a huge fleet there and enslave a possible ally in order to become immortal!"

Obviously risking the knowledge getting to Eyir would be a sound plan.

[Mixxy]

Skulking around already conveys they are doing shady shit. You're trying to make a point out of the Horde quest-giver not specifying what shady shit they were up to as if it changed anything at that point. The Alliance already breached their territory and engaged in hostile actions by that very face. Nothing else was needed.

Not mentioning anything whatsoever about the first Alliance spies meeting any hostile reaction from the Horde on the other hand does not convey anything about those spies being dead.

So I redid the quest to refresh my memory. Nathanos tells you "if you see any Alliance skulking about, kill them!" That's before you even GET in Silithus.
So immediately, you're given explicit instructions to kill any Alliance you see, regardless of hostility.
When you're actually in Silithus, the Goblin there tells you that he's "getting reports of Alliance spies snoopin' about." and instructs you to go kill them before they learn anything.
That's not a response to hostile forces killing your workers and exploding your equipment. The quest literally tells you that they're sneaking around, and the reason you kill them is not to stop them from attacking, but to stop them from learning what the Horde is up to there.

And when you turn in that quest, the Goblin says "You did well... Crisis averted! But we better keep an eye out for reinforcements! If this stuff is as valuable as Gallywix says, the Alliance is gonna be all over this place in no time!"
The quest is straight-up telling you that what you dealt with wasn't the first wave of Alliance spies and that they're gonna come back even harder. Those reinforcements are the second wave of spies Speed sends in, and the Alliance champions.

The champions who, when they arrive, are warned that they're gonna be charging in guns blazing against 'overwhelming odds' and that they're being sent in because others 'wouldn't make it out alive'.

Because others didn't make it out alive. Because the Horde quests come first.


"Spies snoopin' about" is about as far away from "baddass charging in murdering everything in sight and causing giant explosions everywhere" as you can get. If the reports the Goblin received were referring to the Alliance players, then whichever Goblins are in charge of MAKING those reports might just be actually retarded.

*Sees Warrior charge in, cleave half a dozen workers in half, throwing big wads of TNT sticks everywhere leaving a path of blood, smoke and craters, then fly off.*
*Writes down "spotted a spy sneaking around".*

- - - Updated - - -

Yes? Are you really trying to build your brilliant narrative upon the notion that Nathanos ever gave a shit about anything other than Nathanos and Sylvanas? He treats even the player with utter disdain and we're the champions of the Horde.

Except, it turns out, Nathanos wasn't the one to give those quests. It was some Orc and some Goblin. Nathanos' only involvement in the quest line is sending you to Silithus, personally instructing you to kill any Alliance members you see there, without provocation.

Nathanos, himself, literally tells you in no uncertain terms straight to your face to do at Silithus exactly what I've been saying the Horde does at Silithus.

Matty Shaw, meanwhile, straight-up tells the Alliance players that he's already sent operatives there. Operatives that are already working on gathering information. You know... snoopin' about.


Plus, as people have already pointed out... the Horde is much closer to Silithus. Being that much closer surely means they can get there sooner. Unless you're gonna argue that somehow Mathias Shaw somehow got his hands on a piece of Azerite before Gallywix did.

So the Horde start sooner, can get there quicker... and have quest text telling them to kill Alliance unprovoked, and quest text informing them that Alliance spies are "snoopin' about", and quest-completion text implying that the current Alliance presence has been completely driven off for now and there's bound to be a second wave coming.
The Alliance start later, take longer to get there... and have quest text telling them to be careful of Horde aggression, quest text informing them that sneaky methods have failed and that the whole thing is taking longer than they'd like, and quest text that warns them they'll be fighting against "overwhelming odds" and hinting that they might not make it out alive.

The writing is really on the wall. The Horde Silithus quests coming first is the only way that makes sense.

[Mehrunes]

Gee whizz maybe that has something to do with the fact that Varian discovered during the attack on Undercity that the Forsaken had secretly been developing a superweapon specifically to kill them all for years. During a truce. An uneasy truce, but a truce nonetheless.

Obviously Blight was labeled as such, because it's necessary for your argument. Never mind that the Blight was made primarily to target the Scourge, which even the rest of the Horde knew about.

This is also after Garrosh - a very high-ranking member of the Horde and Thrall's BFF, mind you - personally and openly tried to kill Varian in the Violet Citadel, for no reason other than "RARG HUMAN PIGS"

Sorry, but 3.0 happened before 3.1. I mean, just a page earlier you expressed lack of surety which happened first. And here you are, completely sure that 3.1 happened first, somehow. What happened? Did you read up on it in the meantime? If so, given the complete inaccuracy of what you just said, where on earth?

You keep saying that the Horde being aware that the spies are there is definitive proof that the Alliance side is first, but that's absolutely not the case.

Unless you're arguing that the Horde finding the first few spies would lead to the Alliance immediately recalling all of them and never sending any spies out again.

What? New spies? But earlier on you tried to argue only the first group was spies. And then got killed. Which is why Alliance sent not-spies. Once again your narrative has the consistency of a liquid and keeps changing shape whenever it's convenient to you.

And if you read my entire point rather than cherry-picked snippet, you'd manage to grasp that my point relies on the fact that in the Horde quest the Horde is aware of the pies in conjunction with the fact that in the start of the Alliance quest no such thing took place. Complicated, I know. Because the Horde finding the first few spies would lead them to do anything about it. Starting with informing the player about it. Alas, still nothing.

I DO get where you're coming from, but you gotta take a step back and just look at what the quest text says.
Horde: "We spotted spies, kill them."
Alliance: "We tried spies, it didn't work, go kill them."

And now it's back to how only the first wave was spies. Fascinating. Anyway, the Alliance explicitly states the reason passive spying did not work was because of it passivity. Not because they were found out and killed.

"Passive" does not equal "they are all dead, but I'm going to tell this to you, our new operative, in an idiotically vague and roundabout way so that you can walk into an outpost prepared for further covert actions from our side without knowing so and risk dying in the process due to not being sufficiently informed and prepared, because I'm whimsical like that, tee hee."

OR
Alliance: "We tried spies, it's not working, now go kill them."
Horde: "Some spies are spying. Kill them."

But the Alliance doesn't tell their player to kill anyone one way or another, regardless of which questline starts first. So I'm not sure what you're aiming at here.

The fact is that whichever way you look at it, something's missing. (Probably on purpose, in an attempt by Blizzard to cause discussions like this and keep that faction conflict going strong.) Either Nathanos deliberately chooses not to mention that the Alliance are being hostile, or Nolan Speed deliberately chooses not to mention that their spies have been killed.

Nathanos does not give a shit about Horde members below him in rank. More news at 11. Meanwhile there is no rational reason or established behavioral pattern to explain either of the Alliance quest givers even hinting at the possibility that some agents are already getting eaten by worms. Even though with this being the kumbaya faction, they'd most likely task you with finding any survivors or at least recovering the dog tags of the victims. Even Sylvanas tasked the player with recovering dog tags of fallen Forsaken in Cataclysm.

But, the Alliance side does allude to the fact that, for whatever reason, the spying hasn't worked. The Horde side doesn't give ANY indication that the Alliance have been hostile.

The Alliance side explicitly gives that reason. On a platter. The first spies were engaged in passive operations. I.e. they were only observing. At best looking for a solid opening they did not find. Which is why the leaders decided on a direct approach of getting deep into the Horde camp and doing whatever is necessary to get those samples.

The evidence is inconclusive either way, but there's still just a shred more evidence of the Horde quest coming first. What's that law everyone on the internet loves to misquote about the solution that makes the least assumptions should be treated as the right one?

Which also leads to the conclusion that Horde happens second. Because the opposite notion requires an assumption SI:7 is run by morons who don't say anything even remotely indicating the operation being made AND the assumption that Nathanos found it in his heart to give a crap about Goblins and stopped being his typical dry self that presents the player with things in a "here's a vague description of the problem, figure it out on yourself and deal with it".

The quests in Stormheim shows that the Alliance doesn't know what Sylvanas is in Stormheim for, only that they know she's there for something and they're determined to find out what.

And the book is already some indication what that what is. Yet during Stormheim they lack even that. Hmmmmmmmm...

At the start of the Stormheim quest line, the Alliance says that they have intel that Sylvanas is heading to Stormheim, but they don't know why.

As per above.

The book recovered in Azsuna mentions Sylvanas having plans, but is incomplete and doesn't mention what, specifically, Sylvanas is after.

It mentions something. Yet during the actual Stormheim questline the Alliance has absolutely nothing until Skol-Ashil, the last subzone related to this questline. And even then that first something they got "welp, Sylvanas is up to something in this area". Nothing about any power or what the V could stand for. They found out about the Val'kyr only after they find out Val'kyr related information in Skold-Ashil.

So of course Genn doesn't know about the Val'kyr. The book didn't have that part. It did, however, mention Sylvanas' intent to go into Stormheim. And the Alliance just so happens, at the start of Stormheim, to know that Sylvanas is going there

It's pretty self-evident.

It's pretty self-evident that you're grasping at straws. The book still mentions Sylvanas is after some power. Let's even put aside that being in a zone full of Vrykul and Val'kyr should be enough to guess what the "V" stood for, especially after Alliance discovered that Sylvanas made a deal with Helya, a fallen Val'kyr queen. They still don't mention any power once. No, instead they repeatedly mention they know nothing. Which is opposite to something, which the information from the book falls under.

Just more Sylvanas apologies. She evil and lost to the core. And now she has no right to the throne of undercity. A true heir is alive and well. Orcs, Trolls, Tauren just need to realize and kick her to the curb.. She'll be the death of the horde.

What Sylvanas apologies? Sylvanas wasn't even commanding officer on the Horde side of Broken Shore. Vol'jin was. And he ordered the retreat. So it'd be Vol'jin apologies. If facts were apologies, that is. Continue being clueless.

- - - Updated - - -

@Mehrunes

I wouldn't bother trying to debate, argue or otherwise engage in conversation with FelPlague. Literally this person's entire history on this forum is that of baseless arguments for the sake of arguing. No facts, no regard for logic, and definitely no regard for other poster's opinions they voice or points they discuss. Just mindlessly defending his/her/itself from any form of opposing opinion.

Hence why they're banned for it.

Again.

I am aware. I'm not trying to convince them (or the rest of brilliant Alliance minds here) of anything though as that is impossible. In some cases in this thread I even explicitly quoted the books or quest text and was met with "lel, doesn't count" so yeah, trying to convince them of anything would be futile. But, if I can expose this behavior and with it the fact that brilliant Alliance fanfiction peddlers are what they are, my time was well spent. Especially if I help notice that to anyone who hasn't browsed lore-related topics before.

[Rampant Rabbit]

First War, started by the Horde... Second War, started by the Horde... All of the faction conflicts during Cata, started by the Horde... Battle for Azeroth, started by the Horde...

Why can't the Alliance be the aggressors for once? Would be nice if the Horde wasn't always shoehorned into the role of bad guys and Alliance into the role of good guys.

Perhaps because Blizzard doesn't (yet) know how to justify it without playing the 'corrupted hero' card.

[Mehrunes]

Only source I could find on when the Battle for Undercity was actually made available ingame states it was 3.3.
"Added in patch 3.3.0.10772"

Keep in mind, I'm not talking about Wrath Gate. I'm talking about the Undercity scenario.

It has comments and screenshots from 3.0. Even the video is from early 3.2. And here's a video from shortly after WotLK's release https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErQ7wvAm6lo.

Fair enough! But if you'll permit me to split a few hairs, I dunno if I'd call that being the "aggressor". The aggressor is the person or power to strike the first blow.

So while the Ashran conflict is on the Nelves, I'd still call the Horde the aggressor of that battle.

Split away. At no point have I said it is an example of Alliance aggression.

(Besides, if the Alliance and Horde were already at war at that point, doesn't it make sense for the Nelves to renege on the trade deal?)

In the earlier chapters of The Shattering the factions were trying to make peace, with terrible results. Thanks to stuff like this or Twilight Hammer machinations. Then Thrall put in the final nail of peace's coffin by making Garrosh his successor.

[Mixxy]

Sorry, but 3.0 happened before 3.1. I mean, just a page earlier you expressed lack of surety which happened first. And here you are, completely sure that 3.1 happened first, somehow. What happened? Did you read up on it in the meantime? If so, given the complete inaccuracy of what you just said, where on earth?

Like I said:

Only source I could find on when the Battle for Undercity was actually made available ingame states it was 3.3.
"Added in patch 3.3.0.10772"

The only source I can find on exactly when during Wrath the Battle for Undercity happened is the WoWhead page for the quest, which claims it was added to the game in 3.3.

So yeah, I don't know when it happened. It was 10 years ago and the one and only source I can find for it claims it was added in 3.3, while the comments about it were written in 3.0.

All I can go by is information that's available to me.

What? New spies? But earlier on you tried to argue only the first group was spies. And then got killed. Which is why Alliance sent not-spies. Once again your narrative has the consistency of a liquid and keeps changing shape whenever it's convenient to you.

I literally never once said that there was only one group of spies sent in. I'm not sure where you're getting that from.
Speed says he has sent in spies, and that it didn't work. There was never any mention of how many he sent in.

And if you read my entire point rather than cherry-picked snippet, you'd manage to grasp that my point relies on the fact that in the Horde quest the Horde is aware of the pies in conjunction with the fact that in the start of the Alliance quest no such thing took place. Complicated, I know. Because the Horde finding the first few spies would lead them to do anything about it. Starting with informing the player about it. Alas, still nothing.

Except Speed does warn the player that they'll be facing "overwhelming odds" and there's a chance they won't make it out alive.

You think he was saying that over some helpless miners and deactivated shredders?

Horde text says "We've found spies."
Alliance text says "We've tried spies, it didn't work, now get in there and fight against overwhelming odds that you might not survive."

Just because he didn't specifically, literally say the exact words "They're attacking us," doesn't mean he didn't say they were attacking.



Your entire argument hinges on the notion that people are only ever speak in very literal wording, and that if the Horde were attacking, Nolan Speed would SPECIFICALLY say "The horde are attacking. They have killed some of our men." like he's some sort of goddamn robot. He's not. He's a spymaster and a leader of teams. Of course he uses pretty wording that downplays casualties while building up the player's abilities.

And now it's back to how only the first wave was spies. Fascinating. Anyway, the Alliance explicitly states the reason passive spying did not work was because of it passivity. Not because they were found out and killed.

No. It doesn't. The quest text never once, ANYWHERE, states that the reason it didn't work was because of passivity. It never, ever says that.

Nowhere does it say that the only reason they haven't got any samples is because they haven't killed anyone. Go ahead, have a look.

You could argue that the "clock is ticking" comment points towards the attacks on Goblin miners being fuelled by impatience but that doesn't add up at all. The spies are already there. They've gone in there well ahead of the player.
And according to your version of events, the Horde were completely unaware of the Alliance presence at that time. No guards, no counter-attacking... so what in the world has prevented those spies from grabbing a few of the Azerite samples from the "helpless, unguarded Goblins"?

Like you said. Greatest spy network in the Alliance. There's no way in hell that they WEREN'T able to quickly and quietly pocket a few shards of Azerite. Especially since Speed says they've already infiltrated the camp.
Not unless they're being intercepted and stopped.

"Passive" does not equal "they are all dead, but I'm going to tell this to you, our new operative, in an idiotically vague and roundabout way so that you can walk into an outpost prepared for further covert actions from our side without knowing so and risk dying in the process due to not being sufficiently informed and prepared, because I'm whimsical like that, tee hee."

Again, no where does anything explicitly state that the passivity is the reason the spies have been unable to gather Azerite samples. You quite literally just made that up.

And no. "I need you to go in and take the direct approach. You'll be facing overwhelming odds and might not make it out alive." is not vague or roundabout. It's actually pretty goddamn blatant.

But the Alliance doesn't tell their player to kill anyone one way or another, regardless of which questline starts first. So I'm not sure what you're aiming at here.

The Alliance player is told to "take the direct approach" because "they can handle themselves in a fight".
So yes. They're told to attack the Goblins.

Unless you're saying that the quest text is exclusively talking about the Alliance players probably needing to defend themselves from Horde forces that have been killing spies on sight?

Nathanos does not give a shit about Horde members below him in rank. More news at 11. Meanwhile there is no rational reason or established behavioral pattern to explain either of the Alliance quest givers even hinting at the possibility that some agents are already getting eaten by worms. Even though with this being the kumbaya faction, they'd most likely task you with finding any survivors or at least recovering the dog tags of the victims. Even Sylvanas tasked the player with recovering dog tags of fallen Forsaken in Cataclysm.

It turns out it wasn't actually Nathanos telling the Horde player about Alliance spies and instructing them to "deal with it". Turns out that was a Goblin. So trying to deflect it with "Yeah well Nathanos is a jerk anyways" is irrelevant.

Also, wait... I'm confused... are the Alliance all goody-goody, can-do-no-wrong, would-never-attack-unprovoked "kumbaya" sweethearts... or are they monster who'd indiscriminately attack unarmed and innocent Goblin miners?

Your narrative is bouncing back and forth so hard it's kinda hard to keep track.

The Alliance side explicitly gives that reason. On a platter. The first spies were engaged in passive operations. I.e. they were only observing. At best looking for a solid opening they did not find. Which is why the leaders decided on a direct approach of getting deep into the Horde camp and doing whatever is necessary to get those samples.

You keep saying that word. I don't think you know what it means.

No where, at any point, is it EXPLICITLY stated that the reason the first spies were unable to procure any samples because of their passivity. Hell, going by your narrative, there were no Horde guards or players present. It was literally just a couple dozen unarmed, unprepared miners that had no idea they were being watched.
The Alliance's "solid opening" in that scenario is literally every single second that they're there. There's NOTHING stopping them from getting some Azerite.

Which also leads to the conclusion that Horde happens second. Because the opposite notion requires an assumption SI:7 is run by morons who don't say anything even remotely indicating the operation being made AND the assumption that Nathanos found it in his heart to give a crap about Goblins

Again, it's not Nathanos. It's a Goblin. And, AGAIN, the Alliance text very openly and blatantly warns the player that they're gonna be fighting against "overwhelming odds they might not survive". As in, heavy opposition.

You know... fighting?

It mentions something. Yet during the actual Stormheim questline the Alliance has absolutely nothing until Skol-Ashil, the last subzone related to this questline. And even then that first something they got "welp, Sylvanas is up to something in this area". Nothing about any power or what the V could stand for. They found out about the Val'kyr only after they find out Val'kyr related information in Skold-Ashil.

It's pretty self-evident that you're grasping at straws. The book still mentions Sylvanas is after some power. Let's even put aside that being in a zone full of Vrykul and Val'kyr should be enough to guess what the "V" stood for, especially after Alliance discovered that Sylvanas made a deal with Helya, a fallen Val'kyr queen. They still don't mention any power once. No, instead they repeatedly mention they know nothing. Which is opposite to something, which the information from the book falls under.

Now you're grasping at straws. At no point in the Stormheim quest chain does a single person go "WE HAVE LITERALLY ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA WHY SYLVANAS IS HERE." The Alliance knows she's after something, some undefined quest for some undefined thing. They just don't know the specifics.
And the single letter "V" isn't somehow enough for them to instantly figure out that she's obviously after Eyir. I'm not sure if you know this, but there's actually quite a few words that begin with the letter V. And that's to say nothing about made-up fantasy words.

Do you think the Alliance player was helping Havi make his soup, they suddenly stopped in their tracks yelling OF COURSE. SYLVANAS IS AFTER VEGETABLES. IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW.

Or, like you said, they were in a zone full of Vrykul. Were they just supposed to assume that's what Sylvanas was after? Or maybe it was something they owned!



And hell, while we're on this topic, I'ma let you in on a little secret.
The intel the Alliance is going on? Top secret. So top-secret that the details regarding the mission are given to you in a sealed envelope, from the King himself. So top secret that only a very select handful of people know. Like Rogers said, the whole mission in the first place was "unofficial". Covert.

Of course the majority of the Alliance in Stormheim seems to know nothing about Sylvanas' plan. Rogers, Tess, Genn and the player are the only people there who do.

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It has comments and screenshots from 3.0. Even the video is from early 3.2. And here's a video from shortly after WotLK's release https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErQ7wvAm6lo.

I doubted the comments because between datamining and content going onto the PTR in weird orders it can be hard to tell. But videos are pretty definitive.

So, guess I was wrong. Disregard all my comments about the Secret of Ulduar trailer then! In fact, kinda puts Garrosh in a good light; attacking the faction leader that declared war on you, but also backing down because of a neutral third party.

Split away. At no point have I said it is an example of Alliance aggression.

Also true. I was just trying to say that the Ashenvale conflict is an example of the Horde almost always being the first to strike in faction conflict.
Regardless of whether or not any individual instance is justified. Which it is, at least, sometimes.

Aside from the Alliance's attack in Stormheim, I honestly can't think of a time when the Alliance struck first. Especially since - I'm sorry - I just can't agree with you on the Alliance hitting first in Silithus.

[Kithelle]

You forgot to add somewhere along those lines "Whole event that led to burning of Teldrassil was to prevent the war before it even began", Sylvannas words.

Doesn't matter...she wanted to conquer the Alliance before they could start a war.

Her goal was to murder people to set them in a huge disarray so she could run them through before they could start a war.

The people who are supposed to be her allies...doesn't matter how you look at it...she started the war...she was obviously the aggressor.

[Kikazz]

Right. "Alliance spies go there first" totally proves that Horde stuff happens first. And not only is the second force (i.e. the player) also spies, they aren't sent there because the first wave of spies were killed. The questgiver explicitly says how before the player arrived they only engaged in passive forms of spying, which were ineffective. Zero fucking mentions of them being killed. So stop lying.

And even if you were right about the order of events, which you are not, the Horde still has the right to protect their camp from Alliance waltzing in. The Alliance had zero right to infringe on Horde camp. @Kikazz

Agree,

the horde were defending themselves,
yes it is a Contested Zone, Not Neutral as @FelPlague keeps referring it out to be, its been contested since Vanilla, they both had camps and as mentioned Alliance infiltrated horde camps as seen with the questing on PTR/live.

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The alliance wanted to buy guess what the horde started killing themn... they sent in spies first and the horde attacked ANY ALLIANCE THEY SAW not just the ones in their base, the ones at the azerite, ANY ALLIANCE THEY SAW, THEY KILLED
and no, spying in neutral territory is not an act of war, sorry buddy.
and no that is not espionage, it requires being in enemy territory, if an area is neutral and an enemy just starts doing something there and kills anyone who goes to see what is going on...

its a contested zone, the alliance sent spies in, read the quests if your going to quote them, the alliance started it by infiltrating the Horde camps,

the alliance quests actually state, that their previous infiltration attempts into horde camps were thwarted, the horde side, says protect the goblins mining azerite, and kill any alliance SPIES you find, it doesnt send you to the camps, or to kill goblins trying to make a living for azerite like the alliance quests do.

[Dylamoo]

I mean it's simple, the writers are bad and have gotten much worse at writing the story. Metzen leaves and the story has no real direction anymore.

[Naiyano]

You are a the horde or you are an enemy of the horde

[Tackhisis]

Easy: the Alliance races valor life.
The Horde races valor only their desire to kill and harass others.

[dope_danny]

The Alliance are established, often very long lived races with set homelands and naturally the infrastructure that comes with it. The Horde is largely a collection of refugees, displaced islanders or the leftovers of a genocidal war that devastated their numbers. They are the aggressors because from their 'underdog savage' core ethos they need to be. They dont have huge castles, underground railways and goddamn spaceships. They have pitched tents in canyons and on mesas. They live in ruins or the half empty ghost town of a former magical empire literally falling apart from lack of support. So they have to go on the offensive. Theres no wood in durotar so they have to go to ashenvale for example. Does any alliance faction have an inability to get their hands on wood? no. Thats just one example. The worst that ever happened to the alliance has been losing gilneas and the plaguelands and at worst thats just some farmland and food in the longrun. Beyond that they have only gotten stronger whereas the horde has under people like garrosh quickly wasted what natural resources they had and had to resort to the loot and pillage lifestyle that makes them the aggressor and in many cases the outright bad guys.

Blame it on Blizzard needing a binary faction dichotomy so the horde always remain the north korea of wow, putting most of their resources into military hardware to try and keep up while the normal citizens live years behind the rest of the world, all in the name of the glorious leader who lives a life of luxury and sees you all as pawns for their own personal goals.

[cparle87]

Because Azeroth would surely be a better place if she managed to enslave the val'kyr.
Nope.
Genn's actions in Stormheim were hit and miss but the distrust had its reasons. Plus, she attacked Gilneas first.

Garrosh attacked Gilneas. Sylvanas' option was take over the invasion or sit back and let her people be used as cannon fodder for Garrosh's troops. Amazing how many people forget about this.