Rogue 8.0 Discussion

[Xorn]

That's a surprise.

Also yeah, I can see MfD being perfect for Outlaw because of the Restless Blades passive.

That is surprising indeed. I wonder what changed to make it useful on ST, or what api the sims are currently using.

[RobertoCarlos]

high energy cost of sinister strike and nerfs to energy gains probably made vigor stronger

[xZerocidex]

Man, I'm really torn between Vigor and MfD now. I like DS but at the same time it was "too" good compared to the other options and it's a nice breath of fresh air to know it has competition now.

[RobertoCarlos]

assassin looks alright but I dunno why they put venom rush on the same tier as exsang/toxic blade. It better not be the best talent otherwise thats boring and the two iconic spells will go to waste

I imagine it will be. 5 energy back on mutilate will be very good, gonna be hard to beat

[Varolyn]

assassin looks alright but I dunno why they put venom rush on the same tier as exsang/toxic blade. It better not be the best talent otherwise thats boring and the two iconic spells will go to waste

Early sims have tb being best in all situations.

[RobertoCarlos]

Early sims have tb being best in all situations.

master poisoner with TB?

also its nice to see the legendary shoulders made its way into the assassin talents, its so strong for a game like WoW

[shaunika123]

trying out some lvl 100-105 leveling builds on the bfa beta:

tested nightstalker while using an 5cp envenom on stealth.
Why does nightstalker not work with envenom casted directly while stealthed? this tooltip is realy confusing. It is because garrote/rupture is casted while stealthed but didnt break the stealth?

What legendary / talent combo are you using until you hit lvl 106 ?
And what talents afterwards?

marked for death /Elaborate Planning/ Hidden Blades with legendary cloak/shoulders seems to be the best, maybe the belt to be still able to one hit mobs at lvl 103-105+.
marked for death while stealthed > envenom kills every mob thanks to the 100% crit window.
If there are 2 or more mobs , Hidden Blades and the legendary cloak will do the rest.

106-110 geting Master Assassin for sure and maybe droping hidden blades in favor of poison bomb

NS should work with envenom, it does now.

so its either a bug or dont know.

[Naiattavain]

I'm getting so sick and tired of blizzard constantly butchering the rogue. this is pissing me off. there is no reason to play rogue during this next expansion. all three spellbooks, and specs are absolute garbage. the power level of rogue is trash also......... Wod rogues were fine that was the money of the spellbooks. Legion raped all our spellbooks in the name of the artifact.... BfA just fucks rogue experience while the experience of playing a rogue is fractured. blizzard what the hell are you doing? just make the rogue fun to play again jesus christ.

the rogue during warlords of draenor was really fun to play because of the talent choices and the spellbook.

[Aceveda]

I'm getting so sick and tired of blizzard constantly butchering the rogue. this is pissing me off. there is no reason to play rogue during this next expansion. all three spellbooks, and specs are absolute garbage. the power level of rogue is trash also.........

Yup, what really pisses me off is how inconsistent they are with their reasons for pruning, and their view on class fantasy vs spec fantasy. Like how all hunters got traps back because thats a big part of the class, yet only 1 rogue spec has poisons, while another spec has gouge, etc. There's a reason why assassination is the only spec that feels like the classic warcraft rogue, and even that spec is lacking essential tools, but outlaw & subtlety? Those specs are so alien compared to pre-legion rogue, and even in bfa they won't budge on it..

[Deleted]

It has always bothered me how blizzard usually need more than a year to get specs playing well and then you only get a few months to enjoy it before they release the next expansion and ruin everything just for the sake of change. It's as though the devs in their infinite arrogance view design as a means to stamp their identity on the game rather than not trying to fix things that aren't broken. Not just rogues but pretty much every class has gone through expansions where the devs took a huge shit on classes only to make concessions over time, and it's this kind of thing that alienates players, makes us distrust the devs and and slowly eat away at subscriber numbers.

[elfporn]

Yup, what really pisses me off is how inconsistent they are with their reasons for pruning, and their view on class fantasy vs spec fantasy. Like how all hunters got traps back because thats a big part of the class, yet only 1 rogue spec has poisons, while another spec has gouge, etc. There's a reason why assassination is the only spec that feels like the classic warcraft rogue, and even that spec is lacking essential tools, but outlaw & subtlety? Those specs are so alien compared to pre-legion rogue, and even in bfa they won't budge on it..

They have never been inconsistent in the reasons for pruning. Atleast not each individual time it's been done.

The first time, in WoD, was due to button bloat. An issue that is still a major problem for some specs.
The second time(Legion) was to reduce button bloat further, and in addition, to reduce inter-spec homogenuity.

A good example being the rogue - the three specs were not significantly different from each other in theme, though there were gameplay differences.

Hunters were also a good example where the specs had little to no difference.

Whether you accept this or not is a moot point - blizzard wanted to have specs be clearly different from one another, both thematically and in gameplay, they also needed to deal with button bloat again.

You have the opinion that outlaw and sub are alien to pre-legion rogue? lets look at the differences - outlaw was renamed from combat, bandit's guile was removed, and RTB added in place of snd. Oh, they added pistol shot and replaced KS with bte.

Clearly outlaw is a completely different spec, it bears no resemblance to combat or any other rogue spec. /s

Sub...was given charges on SD, and FW was removed. Some abilities were renamed for the shadow theme.

Once again, it's like it's an entirely new class! /s

Opinions matter, but whining about this crap doesn't.

[Aceveda]

They have never been inconsistent in the reasons for pruning. Atleast not each individual time it's been done.

The first time, in WoD, was due to button bloat. An issue that is still a major problem for some specs.
The second time(Legion) was to reduce button bloat further, and in addition, to reduce inter-spec homogenuity.

A good example being the rogue - the three specs were not significantly different from each other in theme, though there were gameplay differences.

Hunters were also a good example where the specs had little to no difference.

Whether you accept this or not is a moot point - blizzard wanted to have specs be clearly different from one another, both thematically and in gameplay, they also needed to deal with button bloat again.

You have the opinion that outlaw and sub are alien to pre-legion rogue? lets look at the differences - outlaw was renamed from combat, bandit's guile was removed, and RTB added in place of snd. Oh, they added pistol shot and replaced KS with bte.

Clearly outlaw is a completely different spec, it bears no resemblance to combat or any other rogue spec. /s

Sub...was given charges on SD, and FW was removed. Some abilities were renamed for the shadow theme.

Once again, it's like it's an entirely new class! /s

Opinions matter, but whining about this crap doesn't.

Yes, removing bleeds and poisons from outlaw in addition to giving it a ranged stun, along with a heroic leap knock-off, is far from a pre-legion rogue. Subtlety was ultra simplified, it lost ~15 abilities, thats more than just having abilities renamed for the forced shadow-this, shadow-that theme, and it was clearly overkill. They trashed excellent gameplay and class fantasy, for spec fantasy with limited kits, and simpletons like yourself are eating it up.

[elfporn]

Yes, removing bleeds and poisons from outlaw in addition to giving it a ranged stun, along with a heroic leap knock-off, is far from a pre-legion rogue. Subtlety was ultra simplified, it lost ~15 abilities, thats more than just having abilities renamed for the forced shadow-this, shadow-that theme, and it was clearly overkill. They trashed excellent gameplay and class fantasy, for spec fantasy with limited kits, and simpletons like yourself are eating it up.

The thinking revealed here:

**BLIZZARD REPLACES EVISCERATE FOR SUB WITH SHADOW DAMAGE FINISHER**

special snowflake vocal rogue: "WTF BLIZZ sub is completely different! it's like a different class entirely! it's not even rogue anymore!"


They made each spec different. In doing so, they relegated certain abilities to certain specs.

So, instead of: (all three specs) having deadly/instant poison, rupture, snd for every spec, they went for each spec having it's own maintenance buff/debuff. (OH MY GOD, IT'S DIFFERENT)

I shouldn't be surprised, people will complain about any changes, whether they are good for the game or not. No matter what it is, people will whine whine whine.

If each rogue spec was rolled back to WoD, outcry! if they stayed the same as end of legion, outcry! if they change to compensate for the loss of artifacts, outcry!



They do what they do because it's their game, and quality feedback can influence that to a point. Whining because, in your opinion, you don't like it for X reason, is not quality feedback.

[shaunika123]

With the last change that Sinister Strike gives 2 combo points i assume that SnD is the must go talent

its not

also, why the fuck would it have anything to do with that lol.

[RobertoCarlos]

its not

also, why the fuck would it have anything to do with that lol.

seriously though, @elfporn "A good example being the rogue - the three specs were not significantly different from each other in theme, though there were gameplay differences."

Im disappointed man. You dont go changing something that works without a clear reason to do so. Saying "specs are not that different" and then throwing darts at the blackboard on what you do with them is not a good model of going about class design.

They should focus on questions like what works, what is fun, what do people like, what is easy to learn and hard to master.

Rather than "right rogues all have 3 specs with similar spells, lets rename a bunch and jumble their utility spells around that will work"

No, no it wont work, that is lazy and you're making a change for the sake of it instead of asking why you should change it in the first place

[shaunika123]

The thinking revealed here:

**BLIZZARD REPLACES EVISCERATE FOR SUB WITH SHADOW DAMAGE FINISHER**

special snowflake vocal rogue: "WTF BLIZZ sub is completely different! it's like a different class entirely! it's not even rogue anymore!"


They made each spec different. In doing so, they relegated certain abilities to certain specs.

So, instead of: (all three specs) having deadly/instant poison, rupture, snd for every spec, they went for each spec having it's own maintenance buff/debuff. (OH MY GOD, IT'S DIFFERENT)

I shouldn't be surprised, people will complain about any changes, whether they are good for the game or not. No matter what it is, people will whine whine whine.

If each rogue spec was rolled back to WoD, outcry! if they stayed the same as end of legion, outcry! if they change to compensate for the loss of artifacts, outcry!



They do what they do because it's their game, and quality feedback can influence that to a point. Whining because, in your opinion, you don't like it for X reason, is not quality feedback.

taking away gouge, garrote, and shiv was fucking disgraceful, putting hemo (one of the most iconic sub abilities) as an assa talent then removing it entirely one expac later was another one.

you can make fun of "omg shadow evis"

but the fact remains that legion neutered the rogue toolkit.

the only saving grace was DFA, and now that's gone too because they were too incompetent to fix a couple bugs with it.

druids are getting hibernate and soothe back, and all we get is even more shit taken away.

[Aceveda]

The thinking revealed here:

**BLIZZARD REPLACES EVISCERATE FOR SUB WITH SHADOW DAMAGE FINISHER**

special snowflake vocal rogue: "WTF BLIZZ sub is completely different! it's like a different class entirely! it's not even rogue anymore!"


They made each spec different. In doing so, they relegated certain abilities to certain specs.

So, instead of: (all three specs) having deadly/instant poison, rupture, snd for every spec, they went for each spec having it's own maintenance buff/debuff. (OH MY GOD, IT'S DIFFERENT)

I shouldn't be surprised, people will complain about any changes, whether they are good for the game or not. No matter what it is, people will whine whine whine.

If each rogue spec was rolled back to WoD, outcry! if they stayed the same as end of legion, outcry! if they change to compensate for the loss of artifacts, outcry!



They do what they do because it's their game, and quality feedback can influence that to a point. Whining because, in your opinion, you don't like it for X reason, is not quality feedback.

They didn't have to remove 2/3rd of the toolkit everytime you respec just to deliver more of the "im such a ninja XD" theme, that could've easily been done ontop of keeping the base ROGUE class kit intact. There's almost nothing left that classifies subtlety as a ROGUE first and foremost. They fixated too much on the specs that they neglected the CLASS.

Legion rogue (especially subtlety spec) is complete trash, having the variation removed from the toolkit made gameplay boring and one dimensional af, that opinion is shared by players who enjoyed good gameplay.

[RobertoCarlos]

taking away gouge, garrote, and shiv was fucking disgraceful, putting hemo (one of the most iconic sub abilities) as an assa talent then removing it entirely one expac later was another one.

you can make fun of "omg shadow evis"

but the fact remains that legion neutered the rogue toolkit.

the only saving grace was DFA, and now that's gone too because they were too incompetent to fix a couple bugs with it.

druids are getting hibernate and soothe back, and all we get is even more shit taken away.

should see the mage talents.

They got the interesting legendaries woven into their talents. Sure they're losing stuff from legion, everyone is. But some are better off than others...

[Aceveda]

taking away gouge, garrote, and shiv was fucking disgraceful, putting hemo (one of the most iconic sub abilities) as an assa talent then removing it entirely one expac later was another one.

you can make fun of "omg shadow evis"

but the fact remains that legion neutered the rogue toolkit.

the only saving grace was DFA, and now that's gone too because they were too incompetent to fix a couple bugs with it.

druids are getting hibernate and soothe back, and all we get is even more shit taken away.

Yup, every single thing they removed in legion I miss greatly. Removing half the cc options (gouge, garrote silence) when rogue is considered the control king is disgraceful. Shiv slow/enrage dispel, reducing the builder rotation to a grand total of 1 ability by removing hemo.. The removal of slice and dice with energetic recovery for a boring tiger's fury copy paste cd is zzzzzzzzz.

The original subtlety tree was completely removed throughout legion with the removal of talents such as premeditation, preparation, hemo, find weakness, master of subtlety, so yea legion subtlety is alien compared to previous iterations.

[shaunika123]

They didn't have to remove 2/3rd of the toolkit everytime you respec just to deliver more of the "im such a ninja XD" theme, that could've easily been done ontop of keeping the base ROGUE class kit intact. There's almost nothing left that classifies subtlety as a ROGUE first and foremost. They fixated too much on the specs that they neglected the CLASS.

Legion rogue (especially subtlety spec) is complete trash, having the variation removed from the toolkit made gameplay boring and one dimensional af, that opinion is shared by players who enjoyed good gameplay.

to be fair for strictly pve it was great a spec.

but that doesnt mean the rest of what you're saying is wrong.

too bad BFA now fucked it in pve too but hey nothing lasts forever.