Amesbury Novichok contaminated item search continues

[Breccia]

Ah, yes. More people mysteriously dying from food poisoning and mysteriously strangling themselves the day they were supposed to show up in court. Just another unlucky coincidence!

[Elegiac]

Ah, yes. More people mysteriously dying from food poisoning and mysteriously strangling themselves the day they were supposed to show up in court. Just another unlucky coincidence!

Hmmm.

Nope not suspicious at all.

[Mikah]

Which part of synthesis is impossible without "level 4 biohazard lab", in your opinion?

Every part.

A level 4 biohazard lab would be useless to make or handle a nerve agent such as Novichok. Biohazard labs are made to contain viruses and bacterias. Not toxic chemical fumes or compounds.

[THEORACLE64]

That assumes synthesis by someone who intends to do large-scale terror attacks with it; known attacks do not fit that pattern.

As example, some seem to synthesize fethanyl which is lethal at fairly close dosages and manage to not die from it during synthesis step nor kill most people along the way to users of illegal drugs.

Where exactly do you get this conclusion from?

Your posts. It’s just becoming more and more hilarious how completely uninformed you are.

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Every part.

A level 4 biohazard lab would be useless to make or handle a nerve agent such as Novichok. Biohazard labs are made to contain viruses and bacterias. Not toxic chemical fumes or compounds.

It wouldn’t, actually. It provides the perfect environment for perfect containment and minimal risk - I see someone’s been reading Wikipedia! Biohazard labs are primarily used for virus and bacteria, but are also useful in providing safe work environment when handling nerve agents that can kill you incredibly quickly i.e. Novichok.

[Shalcker]

Every part.

Where exactly is danger in every part, given that initial components aren't exactly as toxic as eventual outcome?

And final compound degrades rapidly from simple exposure to water?

A level 4 biohazard lab would be useless to make or handle a nerve agent such as Novichok. Biohazard labs are made to contain viruses and bacterias. Not toxic chemical fumes or compounds.

THEORACLE64 is the one saying level 4 biohazard lab is required though, not me.

[Puupi]

We sure seem to have lots of neurotoxin and chemical weapons experts around here.

[Shalcker]

Your posts. It’s just becoming more and more hilarious how completely uninformed you are.

Why exactly do you assume "If people would just go ahead and make Novichok then there would be a *lot* more cases of it."

People don't usually need something this potent. Plenty of things aren't done not because they are particularly hard to do having a knowledge, but because noone has a situation where those things being done is needed (as well as possibility of being caught and jailed unless it's government-approved work).

[Mafic]

We sure seem to have lots of neurotoxin and chemical weapons experts around here.

All I know is that I do not touch bad stuff and I am safe.

[Independent voter]

1) They were developed in the Soviet Union
The name Novichok means "newcomer" in Russian, and applies to a group of advanced nerve agents developed by the Soviet Union in the 1970s and 1980s.

They were known as fourth-generation chemical weapons and were developed under a Soviet programme codenamed Foliant.

Novichok's existence was revealed by chemist Dr Vil Mirzayanov in the 1990s, via Russian media. He later defected to the US, where he published the chemical formula in his book, State Secrets.

In 1999, defence officials from the US travelled to Uzbekistan to help dismantle and decontaminate one of the former Soviet Union's largest chemical weapons testing facilities.

According to Dr Mirzayanov, the Soviets used the plant to produce and test small batches of Novichok. These nerve agents were designed to escape detection by international inspectors.

Who controls the world's most toxic chemicals?
What are nerve agents and what do they do?
2) They are more toxic than other agents
Some variants of Novichok are thought to be five to eight times more toxic than the VX nerve agent.

"This is a more dangerous and sophisticated agent than sarin or VX and is harder to identify," says Professor Gary Stephens, a pharmacology expert at the University of Reading.

VX agent was the chemical used to kill the half-brother of Kim Jong-un last year, according to the US.

3) How long does Novichok last?
Home Secretary Sajid Javid said he could not rule out the possibility that the nerve agents used in the two incidents were from the same batch, and this was one of the main lines of inquiry that scientists would be pursuing.

Experts are divided on the likelihood that the couple came across the same Novichok disposed by whoever administered it in March to the Skripals.

Dr Mirzayanov cast doubt on the theory, saying Novichok would have decomposed in the four months since the Skripal attack.

But Vladimir Uglev, a scientist who claims he invented the Novichok agent used in the Skripals' poisoning, said this was wrong and the substance is "very stable".

Other experts say the chemicals are designed to be persistent and could last for months or years, particularly if they were kept in containers.

"They [Novichok nerve agents] don't evaporate, they don't break up in water," said Andrea Sella, professor of inorganic chemistry at University College London.

One difficulty is that Novichok is less well studied and understood than other nerve agents, and there is no official scientific data on how long they last.

Detailed analysis of the substance will need to take place before experts will know for certain whether this is the same batch of Novichok.

4) Novichoks exist in various forms
While some Novichok agents are liquids, others are thought to exist in solid form. This means they could be dispersed as an ultra-fine powder.

Some of the agents are also reported to be "binary weapons", meaning the nerve agent is typically stored as two less toxic chemical ingredients that are easier to transport, handle and store.

When these are mixed, they react to produce the active toxic agent.

"One of the main reasons these agents are developed is because their component parts are not on the banned list," says Prof Stephens.

Image copyrightEPA
Image caption
A church cordoned off during the investigation
5) Some can take effect very quickly
Novichoks were designed to be more toxic than other chemical weapons, so some versions would begin to take effect rapidly - in the order of 30 seconds to two minutes.

The main route of exposure is likely to be through inhalation or ingestion, though they could also be absorbed through the skin.

Chemical weapons expert Hamish de Bretton-Gordon said it was likely that the Wiltshire couple had somehow ingested Novichok - perhaps by transferring it from skin to the mouth.

6) The symptoms are similar to those of other nerve agents
Novichok agents have similar effects to other nerve agents - they act by blocking messages from the nerves to the muscles, causing a collapse of many bodily functions.

Dr Mirzayanov said the first sign to look out for was miosis, the excessive constriction of the pupils.

A larger dose could cause convulsions and interrupted breathing, he said.

"[Then begins the] continuous convulsions and vomiting, and then a fatal outcome."

Dr Mirzayanov said there were antidotes - atropine and athene - that helped stop the action of the poison, but that they were not a cure.

If a person is exposed to the nerve agent, their clothing should be removed and their skin washed with soap and water. Their eyes should be rinsed and they should be given oxygen.

7) What has Russia said?
The state media in Russia are deflecting any suggestions of a Russian link to the new poisoning, calling the UK government's demands for an explanation "a dirty political game".

Moscow previously denied any involvement in the Skripals' poisoning and demanded proof.

Its foreign ministry has insisted there had never been any research conducted on Russian soil "that would bear the direct or even code name of Novichok".

But the UK foreign office has said it has information indicating that "within the last decade, Russia has investigated ways of delivering nerve agents likely for assassination".

The UK dismissed as "absolute nonsense" Moscow's allegations that it could have instead produced the toxin itself at the Porton Down research laboratory.

The Kremlin has made similar claims about Sweden, Slovakia and the Czech Republic, which have all been denied.

8) Could anyone else have made Novichok agents?
Dr Mirzayanov believes Russia had to have been behind the Skripal poisoning "because Russia is the country that invented it, has the experience, turned it into a weapon... has fully mastered the cycle".

Russia's UN ambassador insisted that development work on Soviet-era nerve agents stopped in 1992, and that existing stockpiles were destroyed in 2017.

Last September, the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) confirmed the full destruction of the 39,967 metric tons of chemical weapons possessed by Russia.

But Novichoks were never declared to the OPCW, and the chemicals never formed part of any control regime partly because of uncertainty about their chemical structures, says Prof Alastair Hay at the University of Leeds.

It is quite likely that some government laboratories made minute quantities and stored their characteristics in databases, so that their identity could be confirmed at a later stage if found as an unknown poison in someone's blood, he said.

Whether this has happened in the UK's chemical defence laboratory is not known.


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43377698

From the BBC

[Fargus]

High level officials wouldn't be granted permission to enter the laboratory without a lab technician present. They would also be supervised by their superiors and site managers (as when higher ups visit they don't just walk in, it's a whole damn show), and they would all be monitored through CCTV with the people monitoring that CCTV being monitored. There's too many layers of security for someone, even a higher up, to just walk in and take something - because you can't just walk in. Products aren't just on shelves either, they're all securely locked away within their own containment which would have to be approved by several people and securely put within sealed fume hoods to be even opened. You can't just walk in ask for some novichok and expect it to be wheeled around like some damn sushi train.

Can you explain how anthrax was mailed to senators after 9/11 then, if there's so much layers of security in places that store these chemicals?

[THEORACLE64]

Can you explain how anthrax was mailed to senators after 9/11 then, if there's so much layers of security in places that store these chemicals?

Are we talking about the same place though? Nope. Porton Down had nothing to do with that, considering it was a separate country. It’s also worth noting that when you go in and out of biohazard labs you have to shower (depending on the type it can be twice if you’re wearing a suit). So, the fact you have to get naked and have a shower literally means you cannot take anything out of those labs. Novichok is a bit harder to come across than ya good old anthrax as well. Security has changed a hell of a lot since as well.

[Noradin]

His status as a bargaining chip was derived from his value in being traded, eliminating the "chips" after the trade just devalues all your other "chips" in play. What I mean is why would anyone want to trade Russia one of their spies back for one of yours if they're just going to kill yours after.

This whole saga had dozens of downsides for Russia with only one upside (if you could call it an upside for "Russia"), it played perfectly into the Russian election, with the western response being seen as unfounded by Russians it unified them behind Putin and turned what was set to be another mediocre election performance for him into a personal best for him and one of the best for any leader since the fall of the USSR.

Well, that's funny, it appears that is all Putin cares about.
Why do you assume there must be an additional upside for Russia if you can clearly see the upside for its Ruler?

[Shalcker]

Are we talking about the same place though? Nope. Porton Down had nothing to do with that, considering it was a separate country. It’s also worth noting that when you go in and out of biohazard labs you have to shower (depending on the type it can be twice if you’re wearing a suit). So, the fact you have to get naked and have a shower literally means you cannot take anything out of those labs. Novichok is a bit harder to come across than ya good old anthrax as well. Security has changed a hell of a lot since as well.

And yet when i asked you to show upon which data you base those assumptions for Porton Down specifically, you have failed to provide anything but your conviction that everything is perfect there.

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Well, that's funny, it appears that is all Putin cares about.
Why do you assume there must be an additional upside for Russia if you can clearly see the upside for its Ruler?

Why should we assume it's Russia when there was clear upside for UK government to claim Russia regardless of reality?

[THEORACLE64]

And yet when i asked you to show upon which data you base those assumptions for Porton Down specifically, you have failed to provide anything but your conviction that everything is perfect there.

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Why should we assume it's Russia when there was clear upside for UK government to claim Russia regardless of reality?

Would you expect a high class military research base to publish data for the public to view? No. Everything that goes on there is classified. Where's the evidence backing up your claims though? Oh, yeah, because they're tin-foil hat fiction.

[Noradin]

Why should we assume it's Russia when there was clear upside for UK government to claim Russia regardless of reality?

Because the UK is (somewhat) more trustworthy than Russia.

[Shalcker]

Would you expect a high class military research base to publish data for the public to view? No. Everything that goes on there is classified.

So did base from which 2001 anthrax came from, as mentioned above...

Where's the evidence backing up your claims though? Oh, yeah, because they're tin-foil hat fiction.

Your belief is based on your belief in the system; my belief in possibility of contrary is based on all failures of the system about which we do know.

I'm not claiming that it is definitely what happened; but i don't see why we should discount such possibility just because Porton Down says so.

[Mikah]

It wouldn’t, actually. It provides the perfect environment for perfect containment and minimal risk - I see someone’s been reading Wikipedia! Biohazard labs are primarily used for virus and bacteria, but are also useful in providing safe work environment when handling nerve agents that can kill you incredibly quickly i.e. Novichok.

No, they are not. Totally useless. Filters and ventilation in a biohazard level 4 labs are made to prevent small particles (ie viruses or bacterias) from going out, or to contaminate your experiments.

Chemicals such as Novichok would go right through, and might even dissolve/break down the barriers you use to contain biohazardous material.

A laminar flow hood is made to keep things you are working with sterile. A chemical hood is made to contain the fumes and chemicals away from you.


I am not saying by any means that a chemical facility that can handle Novichok would be cheap or trivial. Just look at the RV in breaking bad, he's got about 200k worth of equipment in there if you buy everything new from Fisher or VWR, and that's not even close to be able to handle small Novichok synthesis.

I am saying that a level 4 biosafety lab is not a suitable environment to handle nerve agents.

[Elegiac]

Your belief is based on your belief in the system; my belief in possibility of contrary is based on all failures of the system about which we do know.

So, a conspiracy theory.

Got it.

[Shalcker]

Because the UK is (somewhat) more trustworthy than Russia.

Really? I would say they are about the same.

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So, a conspiracy theory.

Got it.

Facility in which UK claimed Novichok was supposedly produced was destroyed (as part of overall destruction of Russian CW stockpiles); their claims are conspiracy theory as well with no proof behind their assertions so far.

[THEORACLE64]

No, they are not. Totally useless. Filters and ventilation in a biohazard level 4 labs are made to prevent small particles (ie viruses or bacterias) from going out, or to contaminate your experiments.

Chemicals such as Novichok would go right through, and might even dissolve/break down the barriers you use to contain biohazardous material.

A laminar flow hood is made to keep things you are working with sterile. A chemical hood is made to contain the fumes and chemicals away from you.

I am not saying by any means that a chemical facility that can handle Novichok would be cheap or trivial. Just look at the RV in breaking bad, he's got about 200k worth of equipment in there if you buy everything new from Fisher or VWR, and that's not even close to be able to handle small Novichok synthesis.

I am saying that a level 4 biosafety lab is not a suitable environment to handle nerve agents.

There's a bit of a difference from making meth on a fictional TV show compared to producing one of the most deadly nerve agents created by man. Most work spaces in that kind of level lab have rounded corners in order to make cleaning more efficient, and the whole decontamination processes is a lot more intense than most general laboratory. It's known that they developed Novichok at Porton Down, but getting that out of a lab with such high security is another matter - it's not possible. This is mostly down to the fact you're constantly being watch, monitored and recorded and that you go in wearing clothing or a suit provided by them, with that clothing/suit going through a decontamination shower once you leave the lab and then yourself having a personal shower before you're allowed to leave the building. There's absolutely no way for a person to be able to store anything on themselves going in and out of those kinds of labs. In terms of producing it outside a lab, producing Novichok isn't just as simple as buying stuff over the internet. I believe there's only 5 compositions of Novichok that have ever been made, so even from chemical analysis of the Novichok they've found would reveal which stock it's come from (and it's probably from Russia's).

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Really? I would say they are about the same.

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Facility in which UK claimed Novichok was supposedly produced was destroyed (as part of overall destruction of Russian CW stockpiles); their claims are conspiracy theory as well with no proof behind their assertions so far.

I direct you to my above post. Try again, kid. Logistics don't allow for what you're saying essentially.