Is the attack on teldrassil really that unjustified?

[owbu]

Blizzard really screwed up on this one in my opinion. The stormheim attack should have been viewed as a declaration of war. I don't think there is a way around that. It's an offical alliance army attacking an offical horde army. I can't think of an example in history or on Azeroth where that doesn't count for some reason like "but some guy thought..".

But then we get a book full of Silvanas and Anduin and both of them still seem to think that we aren't at war. Everything is still in cold war status and the reasons we get for why the war needs to be fought is stuff like: because "we can't have a missile base in range of our captitol" and "I want to use Stormwind as a source for undead babies".

At which point you can't really use that attack as a reason for the attack anymore and we go back to "because Silvanas is evil and paranoid".
So, yeah - in a world, where Blizzard would have a better cordinated writing team, you could totaly justify an attack on Teldrassil. But in this world, nothing that happened is actually used as the justification to attack.

(to your other stuff: Jaina was before the armistice and also the king told her no and she obeyed. The Silithus events are just unofficial spy stuff (also the book made it sound like the Horde was the attacker, but I'm not sure). The Calia event has the same problem as the Stormheim attack. They could have used that as a justification, but they let Silvanas and Anduin come together and talk about it and it's declared that it isn't viewed as a continuation of the war.)

I haven't played the ptr or beta stuff, yet, so I might be missing something from there.

[Linkedblade]

All is fair. . .

[Jeina]

Nah, after Val'sharah, any attack on the Night Elves is justified.

[Deleted]

Well considering Sylvanas's justification is that "If I don't get Azerite then Anduin will use it to exterminate the Horde" I think it is unjustified. I mean Anduin would have rather became BFFS with Garrosh instead of executing him. He is not the type to start wars.

All her justification is just BS fearmongering that I, as a Hungarian, know all too well.

[Aucald]

What control? Azerite is sprouting all over the globe. She knows it because Magni told her and he doesn't have much reason to lie. Controlling Teldrassil is barely more precious to halting the Alliance's Azerite supply than, say, holding on to the Eastern Kingdoms where it will also grow eventually. Obviously that won't be reflected in-game because of status quo but Teldrassil and Silithus are just two places among many where it exists. That's why the entire plan is silly. It's like imagining you control the global oil supply when you only have the Arabian peninsula and Venezuela while ignoring that new fields are springing up on every continent, including in territories you cannot hold and in those you lost to get the aforementioned fields.

The bulk of the Azerite is still in Silithus, smaller deposits are cropping up elsewhere but not yet in the quantities of Silithus or the Seething Shore. No one in this scenario is omniscient, so they're operating under the understanding that the Azerite is a finite and rare resource (an understandable approach, given the givens). If Sylvanas controls the bulk of it, she essentially controls the power dynamic. Hydraulic despotism at its finest. The Alliance can't hope to field the same number of Azerite War Machines or other military juggernauts if they can't claim the vast majority of the resource these things require.

- - - Updated - - -

They can't challenge her because of the constant power Blizzard gives to the horde.

If that were to be the case - which it isn't, ultimately. Sylvanas neither claims Teldrassil nor the Alliance's Azerite, as evidenced by the War Machines the Alliance deploys later.

[Jastall]

The bulk of the Azerite is still in Silithus, smaller deposits are cropping up elsewhere but not yet in the quantities of Silithus or the Seething Shore. No one in this scenario is omniscient, so they're operating under the understanding that the Azerite is a finite and rare resource (an understandable approach, given the givens). If Sylvanas controls the bulk of it, she essentially controls the power dynamic. Hydraulic despotism at its finest. The Alliance can't hope to field the same number of Azerite War Machines or other military juggernauts if they can't claim the vast majority of the resource these things require.

Is the bulk still in Silithus? We have no citation for that that I recall. All we know is that it is increasingly more common and widespread, and that does not require omniscience as both factions know it from the practical mouth of the planet itself.

And if Blizzard wanted us to believe Azerite war machines were such a game changer, they could not have shown the Horde's first getting solo'd by Saint Anduin.

[Steampunkette]

Well considering Sylvanas's justification is that "If I don't get Azerite then Anduin will use it to exterminate the Horde" I think it is unjustified. I mean Anduin would have rather became BFFS with Garrosh instead of executing him. He is not the type to start wars.

All her justification is just BS fearmongering that I, as a Hungarian, know all too well.

It's arguable that Anduin wouldn't want to do that, but it's also obvious that Anduin doesn't have complete control over the military or over Genn. It's also worth noting that with nearly no hesitation he agreed with Rogers and Genn to begin making weapons from the new substance. And he did so after seeing Rogers basically have a hategasm off the Azerite.

Plus various leaders of Alliance races have declared the intention, or actively tried to wipe out the horde. Genn included.

[Tabrotar]

This is objectively false, have any of you pansies whinging about Sylvanas even read the book? You can see her internal narration where she first recalls them and only gives the order to shoot to kill when Calia announces herself and parts of the Desolate Council go with her. Her reason for accepting the meeting is because she thinks it'll fail and demoralize the Forsaken, bring them into her camp.



Using our magnificent brains we can figure out Greymane was wrong because had the Horde stayed they'd all die and nothing about the outcome would change. But disregarding that, why would the Horde give two shits about his thought process and not the fact that he attempted to kill their leader and bombed their army in the middle of an invasion by the greatest threat to Azeroth?

Just as it was said many many times before Sylvanas didn´t want any freethinking Forsaken all she wants are mindless yes sayer and bootlicker and anyone with even a spark of free will will be disposed off.

See Koltira and what happend to him after he didn´t do as she told him.

[Aucald]

Garrosh attacked Theramore the way he did because he knew the moronic Alliance would bring all their top leadership in one location and we could destroy it all in one fell swoop. He didn't do what he did because he wanted to be a chest thumping supremacist who thought the Alliance couldn't do anything about him wiping out one of their cities. He did the attack for the exact same reasons Sylvanas wanted to kill Tyrande and Malfurion. Remove the leadership and coast into an easy victory. She thought doing what she did would end all conflict on Kalimdor according to the dialogue, she failed in her objectives though.

That was his intent and part of his overall strategy, but it was met with failure nonetheless. Even still, the idea that the death of the Alliance leadership would somehow conclusively end the Alliance threat is wrongheaded - more than enough of the leadership remained outside the conflict to lead the Alliance even if Garrosh's strategy had panned out. He still felt the Horde was the superior force.

[Super Dickmann]

Just as it was said many many times before Sylvanas didn´t want any freethinking Forsaken all she wants are mindless yes sayer and bootlicker and anyone with even a spark of free will will be disposed off.

See Koltira and what happend to him after he didn´t do as she told him.

I already countered this argument. Knock yourself out, here it is:

Will you people ever give up on the freedom of choice is freedom from consequences meme? When a high official, which the Desolate Council are, being right after Sylvanas and Nathanos in authority, deserts during an ostensible peace summit to join a competitor for the throne of the monarch, that monarch killing them is perfectly reasonable. Treason is still punishable by death in many modern states and those states aren't run by someone like Sylvanas. Of course the forsaken don't have the freedom to join a hostile faction, neither does any other faction. You might as well be complaining that Sylvanas imprisoning Forsaken criminals in Rise of the Lich King shows she doesn't believe in freedom because she's infringing on their right to murder and steal.

[Minikin]

His "Justice" was a war crime, an assassination attempt of a foreign head of state, cost the lives of uncounted Forsaken, Gilnean, Gnome, Dwarven, and Human soldiers, and the destruction of materials and equipment that were meant to be used to fight the Burning Legion.

Justice my ass. Dude had a vendetta, abused his position of power, and got a slap on the wrist for doing it. Anduin gave him a "Talking to"

So he should just forget that this specific foreign head of state is responsible for:
1. Plaguing his kingdom
2. Pushing his people out and making them refugees
3. Killing his son

Sylvannas is what she is. This is her character. There is no justification of it. Either you join it and revel in it or you are against it.

[Aucald]

Is the bulk still in Silithus? We have no citation for that that I recall. All we know is that it is increasingly more common and widespread, and that does not require omniscience as both factions know it from the practical mouth of the planet itself.

And if Blizzard wanted us to believe Azerite war machines were such a game changer, they could not have shown the Horde's first getting solo'd by Saint Anduin.

Sylvanas has no reason to trust Magni at his word, given that Magni was formerly an Alliance leader himself in high standing - she may also feel that his implicit devaluing of Azerite in terms of rarity could be a ploy to promote laxity on her part while the Alliance goes hog-wild securing it for themselves. But yes, the site of the Wound remains the place where Azeroth's seeping essence is focused and the nexus point for Azerite acquisition even into BfA - where Azerite elementals spawn increasingly from the area and have to be dealt with by the Cenarion Circle and Earthen Ring. Prior to BfA concentrations of Azerite are confined to Kalimdor - Silithus, and then near Darkshore, and probably other places. The damage is slowly spoiling outward in subterranean seams as Azeroth deteriorates, appearing on nearby islands (Zandalar, Kul Tiras, and the various islands being prospecting nearby) and finally appearing randomly in the Eastern Kingdoms furthest from the site of the Wound.

[Steampunkette]

So he should just forget that this specific foreign head of state is responsible for:
1. Plaguing his kingdom
2. Pushing his people out and making them refugees
3. Killing his son

Sylvannas is what she is. This is her character. There is no justification of it. Either you join it and revel in it or you are against it.

He shouldn't forget that this specific head of state harmed him and his people. But being hurt by someone does not give you carte blanche to commit whatever crimes are necessary to murder that person years later. Nor does it give you the right to kill her people because you're angry.

Stormwind killed Sylvanas's emissaries, forced her to work with the horde for her own Survival, and since that time has engaged her in Warfare. These facts may be the reason for her wanting to invade Stormwind, but if she were to invade Stormwind her actions would not be justified by those reasons.

Committing war crimes is not justifiable. Ignoring your responsibilities to your king and your country for your own personal vendettas is not justifiable. I may understand his reasoning, and in his place I might have done the same thing. But I do not delude myself into thinking it was the right decision, or a moral decision.

[Minikin]

He shouldn't forget that this specific head of state harmed him and his people. But being hurt by someone does not give you carte blanche to commit whatever crimes are necessary to murder that person years later. Nor does it give you the right to kill her people because you're angry.

Stormwind killed Sylvanas's emissaries, forced her to work with the horde for her own Survival, and since that time has engaged her in Warfare. These facts may be the reason for her wanting to invade Stormwind, but if she were to invade Stormwind her actions would not be justified by those reasons.

Committing war crimes is not justifiable. Ignoring your responsibilities to your king and your country for your own personal vendettas is not justifiable. I may understand his reasoning, and in his place I might have done the same thing. But I do not delude myself into thinking it was the right decision, or a moral decision.

Guess we will have to agree to disagree then. To me they are acting totally in character.

Given what she did he is well within his rights to hold her hostage and feed her hozen poo for the rest of her days lol. Genn is not Anduin. And ull notice that Rogers has exactly the same motivation as Genn but less authority. Rogers lost her family in South shore to sylvannas.

He is doing it for his people. He says his motives pretty clearly in the stormhiem cinematic, for Varian, for gilneas, for my son.

And just as you said in the other post, that sylvannas had no way to know that among the defectors were some innocent loyal to her, there is no way for Genn to know (or really give a crap) about sylvannas intentions at the broken shore

Sylvannas is supposed to be the shadowy do whatever it takes paragmatic person.

Genn is supposed to be a hot head (shown in multiple novels) and in game scenarios.

I will say though this is not a war crime. The alliance and horde wre not at peace. Peace was never signed or called for. Just tenous avoidance at best.

Also Genn is a king in his own right. Alliance military does not work like the horde blood oath. The high king is the commander but the military is joined together as allies not held together by service to a warchief. Which is why Anduin is at best disappointed at Genn but doesn't do much else.

If this was about morals how about you check what the forsaken have been doing to perfect the plague. There are enough quests in the starting zone, all the way from vanilla till now.

This expansion is going to shed light on that I assume. Because blizz didnt just make an undead light hybrid to just let it be. There is a reason there. They might just use this to show the more human side of the forsaken. Prove it. But then show how the alliance doesn't believe and does dishonorable (pls finally!!!) stuff and gives us an equally horrible but pragmatic person.

[Steampunkette]

Guess we will have to agree to disagree then. To me they are acting totally in character. .

I do not dispute that their actions would be within their characterization. I do dispute the morality of their actions. There is a significant difference between the two concepts.

If we must agree to disagree, here, it is because your morality is flexible where it applies to war crimes. And that is somewhat disconcerting.

[Techno-Druid]

Attacking Teldrassil was likely the stupidest move that could have been made, because that instantly puts a target on Undercity and Quel'thalas. The Alliance for its part has very little use of Teldrassil even with transporting Azerite as you could pretty much just transport it across the South Seas directly to Stormwind or to Booty Bay and transport it by land to Stormwind.

Sure, there is some logic with the Horde and Alliance being separated by an ocean but it would have just been smarter to abandon Quel'thalas and annex Northern Kalimdor, because there's no way in hell blood elves and night elves are leaving those areas until every last one of them is dead.

[Minikin]

I do not dispute that their actions would be within their characterization. I do dispute the morality of their actions. There is a significant difference between the two concepts.

If we must agree to disagree, here, it is because your morality is flexible where it applies to war crimes. And that is somewhat disconcerting.

ROFL. The only thing disconcerting is you not realizing that this is a business based video game. In real life undead zombies don't come around flying on bats yelling at people. Neither to living people fall over and melt when someone swears at them loudly.

If you want to follow alice down this rabbit hole at least give the books a read and follow the quests in sequence so your narrative isn't even more fantastical than this poor ductaped story lol.

[Steampunkette]

ROFL. The only thing disconcerting is you not realizing that this is a business based video game. In real life undead zombies don't come around flying on bats yelling at people. Neither to living people fall over and melt when someone swears at them loudly.

If you want to follow alice down this rabbit hole at least give the books a read and follow the quests in sequence so your narrative isn't even more fantastical than this poor ductaped story lol.

Resorting to ad hominem attacks, and insulting my intelligence or sanity in the process, does not contribute meaningfully to this discussion.

I have attempted to clear up what appears to have been our misunderstanding, by expressing that while I understand Genn and Sylvanas's actions are within their characterization I do not agree with the morality of their actions independent of their characterization. Do you understand the difference between those two positions or do I need to explain it further?

[Aucald]

Too bad that it is a fact. From the very beginning of WoW, horde was always blessed with power by blizzard, eventhough they were nothing other than refugees who constantly lose their wars and their capital got sacked, they are still as powerful as Alliance. So yes it is Blizzard's blessing ... to a degree that suddenly after so many wars and so many loses "lets invade the homeland of the ones that Garrosh devised a lot of plan to conquer their land and failed and take their entire nation as hostage and kill the most powerful druid who saved the world several times and break the spirit of those people who are extremely religious and live happily after. Are you with me Mr. Honorable?" "Yeah, honor not triggered. Lets go"

I'm referring to Sylvanas taking Teldrassil and all of the Alliance's Azerite as not happening, not your claim that there is developer favoritism for the Horde. From what I've seen of the various developers' views such as via Twitter or blogs there seem to be some who favor the Horde, some who favor the Alliance, others who don't care, and yet others who try to ensure the balance of power more or less remains intact. There's no collective Horde or Alliance favoritism, nor should there be either way - playing favorites with the factions would be a great way to truly rouse the ire of your playerbase (which I think they're all well aware of despite their personal favorites).

[Minikin]

Resorting to ad hominem attacks, and insulting my intelligence or sanity in the process, does not contribute meaningfully to this discussion.

I have attempted to clear up what appears to have been our misunderstanding, by expressing that while I understand Genn and Sylvanas's actions are within their characterization I do not agree with the morality of their actions independent of their characterization. Do you understand the difference between those two positions or do I need to explain it further?

Telling you to read the book and check the sequence = insulting intelligence?

Telling you that this is a business based video game based on a fantasy land, and taking it so seriously is ad hominem?

We agreed to disagree. You got upset and pointed out that my morals are skewed based off fictional characters. I corrected your course (or tried to). If that is insulting then honestly lol we dont need to continue this further.