Blizzard removed Demon hunters soul..

[valky94]

"Many DH are feeling". Source?

Can you screenshot me your 120 DH on Beta?

i wonder that aswell, i remember seeing a couple of weeks ago that most of the people are satisfied with BfA DH

[Deleted]

i wonder that aswell, i remember seeing a couple of weeks ago that most of the people are satisfied with BfA DH

Where is it? It is from the alpha that there are a lot of negative feedback on the Havoc.
Go to read Na and Eu official Forum.

[Accendor]

i wonder that aswell, i remember seeing a couple of weeks ago that most of the people are satisfied with BfA DH

No idea where you got this, it os literally one of the most broken speccs at the moment.

[Deleted]

It's no use trying to reason with OP. He's so far gone that if he were a dog I'd put him down.

reported


10char

[Lindon]

No idea where you got this, it os literally one of the most broken speccs at the moment.

Just jump in to the DH discord. That usually provides a better metric on how "good" the DH class is in beta when compared to mmo-champ or official forums.

DH's do have some wonky stuff going on for certain but I'd say it's a farcry from being "one of the most broken" classes.

[lummiuster]

paladin anti demon class? what are you smoking ? however i agree these exorcism spells and stun things should have stayed in the game forever as a unique class you are playing, you are supossed to be better at this or that, as the bleed from throw glaive.But we didnt steal anything from your class rofl, if even, the warlocks..

if u remove iconic spells like useless fel rush, glaive bleed, unique weapons traits, the demon hunter is nothing just chaos strike.

And i must remember you that we were created at LEGION expansion, and our tools were there.( not like paladins)

Is like showing a kid a candy then steal from him

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then you dont know about the dh nerfs... DH was top at 7.1

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sorry but you dont udnerstand, when created , the DH fel rush throw glaive bleed and shits were CORE things, now they dont bleed, fel rush does shit damage, and they created the DH around the artifact.. a dumb can see that, if you remove the artifact traits the class is shit, as many people are complaining, stop making opinions of what you have no idea.

There are some class keeping his artifact traits in BFA, others not, like DH's.


PD: During legion fel rush damage reduced by 30% and the glaive bleed 50% +25% on legendary

Paladin had demons/undead only abilities. What is so hard for you to understand. If you didn't play in BC then don't comment.

[pay928]

Paladin had demons/undead only abilities. What is so hard for you to understand. If you didn't play in BC then don't comment.

They do in Legion too. Ret artifact ability stuns demons only.

[Accendor]

Just jump in to the DH discord. That usually provides a better metric on how "good" the DH class is in beta when compared to mmo-champ or official forums.

DH's do have some wonky stuff going on for certain but I'd say it's a farcry from being "one of the most broken" classes.

I am on the DH discord. I am on the beta myself. I have no idea where you get your impressions from, because the dh discord I am on is very concerned (Havoc ofc, Tank is fine)

[Lindon]

I am on the DH discord. I am on the beta myself. I have no idea where you get your impressions from, because the dh discord I am on is very concerned (Havoc ofc, Tank is fine)

I've had beta since the second wave and can't say there's been any kind of resounding cry in the Fel Hammer Dh discord about DH's being completely broken in BfA. People have mentioned that Fel Rush being on the gcd makes the momentum build feeling a bit clunky but that is probably it.

Everything else that goes on on the discord is mostly talks about balancing the DH's abilities.

[Ashkiman]

So we're talking about the class' feel or performance? Because performance wise Havoc is and I'm pretty sure will be in a good place.
Btw I played Havoc for most of Legion

[kran1um]

I've had beta since the second wave and can't say there's been any kind of resounding cry in the Fel Hammer Dh discord about DH's being completely broken in BfA. People have mentioned that Fel Rush being on the gcd makes the momentum build feeling a bit clunky but that is probably it.

Everything else that goes on on the discord is mostly talks about balancing the DH's abilities.

dont worry most of the people on there are newcomers on the FOTM class tank wanting to dally in the Havoc dept and have no clue on playstyle. nerfs happened to everyone.

[Accendor]

I've had beta since the second wave and can't say there's been any kind of resounding cry in the Fel Hammer Dh discord about DH's being completely broken in BfA. People have mentioned that Fel Rush being on the gcd makes the momentum build feeling a bit clunky but that is probably it.

Everything else that goes on on the discord is mostly talks about balancing the DH's abilities.

I will just quote myself, hope that is ok. I understand that my opinion is not the opinion of all DH players but if you look through all the feedback on the official forums, here and on the discord I think that I have managed to get most of the problematic points:

I'll just go over the first layer of problems, there are more underneath, but let me start:


At the time I wrote this post we had a fury cap of 100, which was a big problem. It is changed now to 120. Still not 140 as on live, but it is already feeling better.
Just to make clear again why this is important: With 120 fury can use CS 3 times instead of 2 times, which does not only feel better in general, it is also important for Dark Slash Windows.


Ok, lets come to the problems:
If you look at the current standard raid and m+ build you have the following Synergies:
- Eyebeam activates Meta
- Head reduces the CD on Eyebeam
- Fury generation is high because of the Ring
- More fury means even more CS
- In addition to DB your attacks spawn soul fragments, which do the following:
- give you fury
- Heal you
- reduce the cooldown of Eye Beam
- Our AoE Stun shatters more Soul Fragments form enemies, which also do resude the cooldown of Eye Beam


While this is very strong in many m+ scenarios, it currently is not OP and even if it was, it would be a number tuning problem. The fact is: There are a lot of synergies here that made a otherwise boring spec fun to play.
So, what goes way now?
- Head does no longer reduce CD on Eyebeam
- Fury generation lower without Ring
- Soul fragments to not reduce the CD on Eyebeam and therefore also our Nova does not reduce the cooldown on Eyebeam anymore. Yes, there is one azerite trait for this, but: a) a class should work without azerite traits b) the azerite trait is way weaker.


In addition to hat be also lose one of our core abilities (even if it has one min CD) that we do not get back.


So this is basically where we start - All our synergies gone. At this point the specc clearly had a lot of other problems, because you were basically never using Blade Dance and your Rotation became 80% CS, 15% DB, 5% Eyebeam (estimated numbers, don't quote me on that). That is pretty dull allready, but the changing in and out of meta made it somewhat fun.


But is there something new? What are our new talents even doing?
First of all we have 3 fury generation abilities, one of them (Felblade) should have been baseline 2 years ago. It is not only fury generation but also movement and very important for the momentum build.
Momentum is of course one of the biggest problems the specc has. It is hated by many but also loved by many. Here is the problem: With the recent GCD changes in general, the fact that Blur does no longer give 2 charges of Fel Rush, Vengeful Retreat being on the GCD and also Vengeful Retreat no longer activating Momentum buff, it is really clunky to play. I actually found the dashing part fun, but I can see why many people dislike it, the fact that you give up all your movement for damage and that you have to very careful with positioning is a problem, but in it's current iteration there is no synergie with anything at all and it feels bad to play because the micromanagement is unforgiving and got more complicated because of the changes mentioned above (not all of them are from BfA). Still it is a very unique mechanic that could be very fun to play. The main problem is that it seems like Blizzard does not WANT it to be fun to play.


Demon Blades actually still exists. There was so much hate for this talent in the first months of legion and it was because it makes the class boring. At that time you were standing around often, waiting for fury. The talent in it's current form takes a spec that already has not enough buttons to press and takes away another one.
The concept how to generate fury is something that perhaps should be re-evaluated completely (there are already some idea in this forum, some good, some not a good, but at least ideas).
On 102 we have 3 talents for AoE damage. Numbers are not tuned here, but basically the point is: Fel Barrage looks cool and is currently the strongest of the 3. However, what is actually does is go us back the ability that we lost when giving up our artifact, it just looks different. But in exchange for that we lose a whole talent row.
104 seems fine, no reason to change much here I think.


Then we have row 106 with gives us 3 talents that all do totally different things. One of them replaces one of our legendaries (Shoulders), one buffs our ST and AoE Damage a bit (First Blood, AoE buff because it reduces the costs) and Dark Slash, which is the only damage ability that now has a synergy with everything. It is basically just a bad copy of Colossus Smash, but at least it is something. But the point is: It feels like this talent should be baseline. It gives the class actuall mechanics. Not perfect mechanics, but at least some mechanics. In the current iteration Dark Slash is very weak, but that could be easily changed with number tuning. It feels like extending the duration by 1 or 2 seconds would "feel" better than increasing the damage, but that is just feelcrafting and I have not done the math here.


108, CC abilities (with Fel Eruption also being a bad Damagespell). Boring row, but it seems ok. But also pay attention to the fact that Fel Eruption no longer does 4x damage to bosses. Yes, that was often ignored for the whole of legion either way, but there were situations were it actually was useful.


So, last row. Demonic, which is very "cool" and allowes mechanical plays with Dark Slash. Question here is of course: Should the demonic mechanic not be implemented in the spec itself and not as a talent? Like e.g. Voidform for Shadowpriest? But whatever, the talent is fine.
I already explained the problems with Momentum.
So that leaves us with Nemesis which has an unique effect in m+ content but it SO boring in boss fights. The biggest problem here is, that it will probably come out on top for ST fights, although this is of course a number tuning problem. The design problem with this ability is, that is has not synergy again with everything else, it is just "you now do more damage on this opponent for 60 seconds, have fun hammering away"


The problem is: Without Dark Slash the core mechanic of the class is still 2-3 abilities that have no synergy between each other (I am not considering something with 60 seconds CD as "part of the rotation", because it is just "fire and forget").


Oh, did I also mention the fact that Blur no longer does gives a speed boost and our leech was nerfed (probably justified)


In addition to that there are some technical problems:
- Fel Rush still disconnects you
- Eye Beam animation is still broken


And by the way, saying "I don't know what your problem is, it is almost like on LIVE!" means that yeah, there is still a problem, because the current LIVE-State is not fine. Blizzard already announced to rework the class with one of the last bigger patches but then did nothing.

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So we're talking about the class' feel or performance? Because performance wise Havoc is and I'm pretty sure will be in a good place.
Btw I played Havoc for most of Legion

We are talking about feel and mechanics. Performance does not matter, that can be fixed by number tuning.

[Deleted]

"Many DH are feeling". Source?

Can you screenshot me your 120 DH on Beta?

source? open you eyes?...

Lot of peoplehave no idea about dh around here.

[Hisholyness]

Demon Hunters were one of the selling points of Legion. Now it's finished (i.e. been there, done that), and they've moved on.

People forget how Wrath of the Lich King Death Knights played... they were insanely different back then too and changed thereafter in Cataclysm & MoP

rip diseaseless blood

[Deleted]

dont worry most of the people on there are newcomers on the FOTM class tank wanting to dally in the Havoc dept and have no clue on playstyle. nerfs happened to everyone.

yeah!! and you must be one of them, theres a lot of threads since a year ago and MORE explaining why the DH state is BAD, and its not 1 thing or 2, im not going to explain something so difficult to you( your head can explode) so go read as lindon should do too before saying crap in public, thanks.

[Lindon]

...

Let's hope the OP learns a thing or two about how one should formulate a post.

As for some of the points you brought up in your post.

Demon Blades:
I've actually started to not hate this talent. The reason to this is that I started to think about what makes Demon's Bite so much better? You trade a fairly boring "push for fury" button that has not other function than to give you fury. The only positive thing with Demon's Bite when compared to Demon Blades is that you will always generate fury when you hit a mob and not the irritating 60% chance to generate.
Changing the 60% to 80-85% would (in my opinion) make the talent feel a little better. Adjusting the damage and fury if doing so of course.

EB synergies:

The legendary head is something that I too will miss. It was quite fun running dungeons and being able to perma EB packs all the time but this was something you shouldn't expect to do when running hard/new content. Because of that I don't really take the loss of that ability especially hard. Generally the hemlet would reduce your EB cd by roughly ~6 seconds when raiding.
The mechanic where souls reduce your EB cd still exists as mentioned in the form of azerite traits. The possibility exists here also to get more azerite gear with the same trait making that specific trait more powerful. How much more powerful it becomes by doing that I don't know at the moment, mabye going from 1 sec to 2 sec reduced per soul.
One thing you have to also think about is that they reduced the base cd of EB to 30 seconds (from 45) which would also leviate some concerns.

The probably biggest positive change they did to EB is the 100% increased damage done to your primary target. This will hopefully make EB usefull in single-target situations whereas it wasn't in Legion (pre T21).

Fury Generation:
They have actually improved the ways DH's generate fury by adding two new talents in the 100 row and combining the prepared talent to momentum.
Demon Blades has unfortunately remained unchanged and will likely need the momentum talent to feel good.

Dark Slash:
I personally don't find this talent very interesting due to the fact that it is a simple rehash of the colossus smash ability. I won't think lesser of anyone actually liking this ability but I just think this was a lazy addition to the DH's arsenal.

[Accendor]

Let's hope the OP learns a thing or two about how one should formulate a post.

As for some of the points you brought up in your post.

Demon Blades:
I've actually started to not hate this talent. The reason to this is that I started to think about what makes Demon's Bite so much better? You trade a fairly boring "push for fury" button that has not other function than to give you fury. The only positive thing with Demon's Bite when compared to Demon Blades is that you will always generate fury when you hit a mob and not the irritating 60% chance to generate.
Changing the 60% to 80-85% would (in my opinion) make the talent feel a little better. Adjusting the damage and fury if doing so of course.

The main problem here are the phases where you are left without fury and you are just standing around doing nothing. It felt terrible 2 years ago, it feels even more terrible now.

The mechanic where souls reduce your EB cd still exists as mentioned in the form of azerite traits. The possibility exists here also to get more azerite gear with the same trait making that specific trait more powerful. How much more powerful it becomes by doing that I don't know at the moment, mabye going from 1 sec to 2 sec reduced per soul.

Just to clarify on this: The traits are available on the PVP realm and they do not stack. Basically for all azerite traits only the damage components stack, no other effects (as of now).

The probably biggest positive change they did to EB is the 100% increased damage done to your primary target. This will hopefully make EB usefull in single-target situations whereas it wasn't in Legion (pre T21).

True.

Fury Generation:
They have actually improved the ways DH's generate fury by adding two new talents in the 100 row and combining the prepared talent to momentum.
Demon Blades has unfortunately remained unchanged and will likely need the momentum talent to feel good.

No, they actually made it worse because they removed the ring legendary (which was basically part of the class itself) and added it as a talent, which leaves you off worse than before (because you can only have this talent or another one).
An improvement would have been if the effect would have been passive and you could chose a talent in ADDITION to it.

Dark Slash:
I personally don't find this talent very interesting due to the fact that it is a simple rehash of the colossus smash ability. I won't think lesser of anyone actually liking this ability but I just think this was a lazy addition to the DH's arsenal.

I agree that this is not the best mechanic that they could have added, but again: It is at least SOME mechanic.

[Gohzerlock]

Your soul was taken from warlocks.

[Deleted]

Your soul was taken from warlocks.

I grabbed the warlock by the neck and kicked him in the balls.

I got my soul's worth

[Lindon]

Just to clarify on this: The traits are available on the PVP realm and they do not stack. Basically for all azerite traits only the damage components stack, no other effects (as of now).

Sounds like a bug or they forgot to implement that function for that trait as I want to recall them saying all traits would be able to stack but we shall see i guess. I hope it's a bug atleast.

No, they actually made it worse because they removed the ring legendary (which was basically part of the class itself) and added it as a talent, which leaves you off worse than before (because you can only have this talent or another one).
An improvement would have been if the effect would have been passive and you could chose a talent in ADDITION to it.

Assuming you are using momentum as your 110 talent both insatiable hunger and demon blades builds both generate more fury than what it does now on live with AotHG.
*napkin math inc*
You would need to use Demon's Bite ~45 times a minute (with AotHG) to overtake insatiable hunger + momentum which you will never do.
As for Demon Blades, this is highly situational. Taking the average auto attack hit/min from top garothi worldbreaker logs will give you about ~66 hits/min. That will turn into ~40 Demon Blades procs/min.
This leads to a fury generation of 780 Fury (with AotHG) and 832 fury (with momentum). This would make Live and BfA roughly equal in fury/min (considering Fel blade generates 10 less on BfA). Just take these numbers with a grain of salt as the haste levels you have here might not be achieveable in the beginning of BfA. With reduced haste the value of Demon Blades goes down.

As mentioned this is with momentum. Without that talent all choices will have less fury/min than what it does now on live with AotHG.