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  1. #261
    I've come to the conclusion that some people literally cannot understand that someone could actually not care if they ever get loot as long as it goes to someone who can use it to help kill bosses. I can think of no other explanation after seeing such extreme comments accusing people of having Stockholm Syndrome if they liked ML while not receiving tons of loot.

    On a more personal note, I was just thinking that if forced PL had been a thing in Legion, I probably wouldn't have even gotten a trial in my current guild. I was extremely undergeared after a long break for RL reasons, but was given a chance because I did have years of hardcore raiding experience. Would they have given me a chance if I was going to end up taking loot they'd rather go to those they already knew were reliable, good players? I doubt it. Anyway, that's probably the biggest way ML helped me this expac. I got a chance despite my awful gear, and ended up getting exactly what I wanted in the end - a main raid spot, challenging boss kills, and a guild I'm excited to continue to be a part of in BFA.

  2. #262
    the raids that will be affected by the change will be those who're pushing extremely competitively for high world/region ranks; gearing up the 'prog group' or fight specific configurations will mean that those people need to be in on every relevant kill, as opposed to only a few being in on the relevant farm and gear being directed to them. And to be honest, I kinda don't care to have the game designed around the practices of those guilds.

    for 95% of mythic raiders who're wiping to execution fails rather than raw numbers (including my relatively casual CE raid) it won't be a big deal; honestly lots of those raids should probably just be using PL anyway.

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by nicbizz View Post
    PL solves that issue. We can get fill-ins that contribute their time, and possibly get us the kill, and in return, they get equal chance at loot. That's fair, I'll be much more inclined to ask someone. .
    If you say fill ins that means those people are not reliably available, otherwise they would be your standard raiders. You realize that giving them loot means next time you do the same boss, an old boss or a new one, you dont have the advantage you get by that fill-in having gear?

    This is not the same as guild which have regular attendance and regular raids, where even if a person that got an upgrade cant make it a certain day, he will still have 90%+ attendance and him having gear will have impact.

    And what stops that fill-in from just going to a different, more geared, more progressed group next week to fill-in and ditch yours? Then once again he gets a kill and some loot. Then moves on. Eventually he joins a nice regular guild where he attends raids. Every group he joined before that is fucked cause the DPS improvement he got is no longer IN the group he got it with. Your group's DPS doesnt improve - it would be the same as if you disenchated all items you get anyway since the person leaves.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Moozart View Post
    ITs is the way its going to be. I am not sure why you think they have changed their stance on this. It is 100% going live. You sound like all the butt hurt Guild officers (loot council) that can no longer divvy up loot to themselves first.
    Mythic guilds understand that gear is going to favour dps to increase it for the benefit of the group to kill the boss (this is nothing new) so what if you can't make the dps check because healers and tank got the gear and dps got very little? so you can see why its problem that if a boss becomes "You can't make this dps check because dps dont have the gear" then you need to wait a week of rng for them just to get a chance at the gear again.

    So you can see why mythic guilds don't like the change, I personally don't care, loot is loot if i can trade it to a dps i probably will because its rare you wipe to a healing issue

  5. #265
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    If you say fill ins that means those people are not reliably available, otherwise they would be your standard raiders. You realize that giving them loot means next time you do the same boss, an old boss or a new one, you dont have the advantage you get by that fill-in having gear?

    This is not the same as guild which have regular attendance and regular raids, where even if a person that got an upgrade cant make it a certain day, he will still have 90%+ attendance and him having gear will have impact.

    And what stops that fill-in from just going to a different, more geared, more progressed group next week to fill-in and ditch yours? Then once again he gets a kill and some loot. Then moves on. Eventually he joins a nice regular guild where he attends raids. Every group he joined before that is fucked cause the DPS improvement he got is no longer IN the group he got it with. Your group's DPS doesnt improve - it would be the same as if you disenchated all items you get anyway since the person leaves.
    Without filler players, you cant kill the boss.
    With personal loot, you can attract fillers. Your guildies killed more bosses so they will get more loot (+bad luck protection)

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Logicbank View Post
    having it as a baseline is fine as long as guild groups still have the option to use ML if they want to.

    it's like a government telling a small community that has done something a certain way for years without any issue, problems or breaking any laws that it needs to do it differently.
    Then the problem they're trying to fix wont be fixed (=> Guilds who do "reroll runs" to boost their main only)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    If you say fill ins that means those people are not reliably available, otherwise they would be your standard raiders. You realize that giving them loot means next time you do the same boss, an old boss or a new one, you dont have the advantage you get by that fill-in having gear?

    This is not the same as guild which have regular attendance and regular raids, where even if a person that got an upgrade cant make it a certain day, he will still have 90%+ attendance and him having gear will have impact.

    And what stops that fill-in from just going to a different, more geared, more progressed group next week to fill-in and ditch yours? Then once again he gets a kill and some loot. Then moves on. Eventually he joins a nice regular guild where he attends raids. Every group he joined before that is fucked cause the DPS improvement he got is no longer IN the group he got it with. Your group's DPS doesnt improve - it would be the same as if you disenchated all items you get anyway since the person leaves.
    What don't you understand about "personal". Everyone can loot 2 items (1 personal + 1 bonus roll - 40 loots) on every boss with a "perfect RNG"...

    And you can STILL trade these personal loots intra guild anyway. Its even better this way, you can "exclude" these pickups from your personal loot trade/random.

    Whats the problem ?

  7. #267
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by vashe9 View Post
    Then the problem they're trying to fix wont be fixed (=> Guilds who do "reroll runs" to boost their main only)

    - - - Updated - - -



    What don't you understand about "personal". Everyone can loot 2 items (1 personal + 1 bonus roll - 40 loots) on every boss with a "perfect RNG"...

    And you can STILL trade these personal loots intra guild anyway. Its even better this way, you can "exclude" these pickups from your personal loot trade/random.

    Whats the problem ?
    Where did you get this idea from on what "problem" they are trying to fix? Aside from improving their RoI with various small changes across the whole game.

    Also what was stopping you from allowing fill ins to participate in ML on the same terms as other raiders? Surely not the ML mechanic ...

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Owlmygod View Post
    Without filler players, you cant kill the boss.
    With personal loot, you can attract fillers. Your guildies killed more bosses so they will get more loot (+bad luck protection)
    Fillers already have a chance at loot with coins, but that just isn't enough. They want the same deal while (in most cases that I've seen) doing way less than actual raiders, after all they're at that filler position because they can't keep a raiding position (for whatever reason that might be).

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsharna View Post
    Where did you get this idea from on what "problem" they are trying to fix? Aside from improving their RoI with various small changes across the whole game.

    Also what was stopping you from allowing fill ins to participate in ML on the same terms as other raiders? Surely not the ML mechanic ...
    Without ML, no more ninja looting from guilds who hate pugs (some people here think they're superior to the pugs they invite...). Simple as that.
    I'm in a guild, I dont like PUG but I understand this change. This wont change ANYTHING for us. Yeah we all know people always RESPECT each other even without enforcement, yup... .......................

    And yes they are trying to fix bad guilds behavior who do boosts with an army of rerolls...
    Last edited by vashe9; 2018-07-12 at 09:46 AM.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by vashe9 View Post
    What don't you understand about "personal". Everyone can loot 2 items (1 personal + 1 bonus roll - 40 loots) on every boss with a "perfect RNG"...

    And you can STILL trade these personal loots intra guild anyway. Its even better this way, you can "exclude" these pickups from your personal loot trade/random.

    Whats the problem ?
    Except you can't actually trade gear if its an ilvl upgrade and you can't trade Azerite gear period. You might get a trinket that sick for X player but its actually worse than your trinkets and still can't trade it because of the ilvl. Its just inferior loot system in every way and there are better ways to limit/remove split raids (yeah this change doesn't remove them at all, just lowers the impact they have)

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by OreoLover View Post
    Glad to see "vote with your wallet" and "vote with your money," those are my final signature for years for good reason.

    Give feedback @ Blizzard forums first, if you think it won't make any impact.

    Personal Loot problems are minor if you're citing "but a PUG didn't give up loot!" when there's self-protection on drops, etc.
    Yes, I'm sure the 57c a day Blizzard gets from you is totally going to make them change their mind about something they did that you don't like, and I'm sure you'll find something much, much better than WoW to spend all that money you're saving on. Like a 2 liter of soda every 3 days. So much better than WoW.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  12. #272
    Deleted
    There's no set bonuses and legendaries, thus you can fill most of your gear slots with raid gear/ mythic+ gear.

    The trinkets are lackluster so it's not gonna matter getting the perfect one either (only if you're pushing world firsts).

    It's true it's not fun for raiding guilds you can't funnel gear in one place anymore, but as a healer, it means I'm gonna get more gear early on, so I'm cool with it haha.
    Last edited by mmoc925aeb179c; 2018-07-12 at 09:55 AM.

  13. #273
    There's no situation in where it shouldn't exist.

  14. #274
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    The primary reason Blizzard are moving entirely to personal loot system is that it reduces loot drama. Loot drama has historically been one of the biggest sources of GM tickets (how do I know this? My brother was a GM with them for 7 years).

    The simple fact is that every time there is a ticket, not only does it require intervention by a GM which is a cost for Blizzard, but it is also indicative of a negative player experience. Even with GM intervention, loot complaints are seldom resolved to anyone's satisfaction. Blizzard have a policy of not enforcing any loot trade based on tickets because that would encourage people to chance their luck by ticketing GMs. What they will do, however, is take ill-gained loot away from the ninja.

    So in the end, no one wins. You've got an upset player who was ninja'd, your ninja is upset because he got caught and punished, and the GM has wasted time. Master Looter was a fine idea, but the data that Blizzard have gathered over many years tells them that it has these inherent problems. And before people try to regale us with anecdotes about how it can't be a problem in guilds, the fact that Blizzard are taking this step suggests that their hard data says otherwise.


    Anyhow, I don't see what all the fuss is about. With the ability to trade loot anyway, for most decent guilds things will be pretty much unaffected. The major difference though that is that no one can force another player to give up their fair share of the loot.

    As for the arguments about this will make loot distibution less efficient, slow down progression, put good guilds at a disadvantage etc, those are pretty much entirely spurious arguments. The fact is that the rate at which people gear up is already artificial and happens at the pace that it is designed to happen. The effects of changing from ML to PL can be cancelled out by tuning other things like drop rates. If progression is slowed, it won't be because of PL, it will be because Blizzard designed it that way. Also, ML never gave any guilds any kind of advantage if every other competing guild was also using it. The important thing for competitive play is that everyone is on the same system, not what that system is.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Owlmygod View Post
    Without filler players, you cant kill the boss.
    With personal loot, you can attract fillers. Your guildies killed more bosses so they will get more loot (+bad luck protection)
    You attract fillers who will jump to the next group they can fill in as soon as you are stuck on some boss.
    Your guildies killed more bosses, its no guarantee they get more loot.

    You are comparing a system depending entirely on RNG vs an organized system with even loot distribution and saying RNG is better? Ultimately, in a pug, you cant use ML and Blizzard has never intended to make mythic pugable (and even if they did, you still cant ML unless you get in a guild and all, and then its not really a pug).
    Last edited by klaps_05; 2018-07-12 at 10:39 AM.

  16. #276
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiase View Post
    I had been with them for about a year and was loyal to the guild. Take your snark and suck it will you? Besides, a few months afterwards I went on a break and when I came back the guild was dead.
    It's may be in a snarky way but he is totally right!

    You stay in a guild that has problems giving out loot and like you noticed that so did all other raiders..
    so instead of leaving your toxic guild you stay because you know them a bit and finding a new one can be a hassle and post about how bad they did giving out loot and reply again saying how loyal you are and the guild is dead now....

    Only giving more proof you should have left your guild or atleas brought it up but if it just keeps going on, time to jump ship

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    The primary reason Blizzard are moving entirely to personal loot system is that it reduces loot drama. Loot drama has historically been one of the biggest sources of GM tickets (how do I know this? My brother was a GM with them for 7 years).

    The simple fact is that every time there is a ticket, not only does it require intervention by a GM which is a cost for Blizzard, but it is also indicative of a negative player experience. Even with GM intervention, loot complaints are seldom resolved to anyone's satisfaction. Blizzard have a policy of not enforcing any loot trade based on tickets because that would encourage people to chance their luck by ticketing GMs. What they will do, however, is take ill-gained loot away from the ninja.
    And with the change the same people who ticket about "not getting loot in a guild" are gonna ticket "player X didn't give me loot when he could've". Stupid people will still make stupid tickets, just as they are going to stay in guilds that aren't going to take them into raids as likely because they'd just take loot away from players that actually need them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Anyhow, I don't see what all the fuss is about. With the ability to trade loot anyway, for most decent guilds things will be pretty much unaffected. The major difference though that is that no one can force another player to give up their fair share of the loot.
    Loot isn't tradeable if it is ilvl upgrade for you and Azerite gear isn't tradeable at all. What it does is increase annoyance with loot trading, since it has to be done manually, and lower the average ilvl "main" characters have going into Mythic raids. Amount of alts/split runs is likely to stay the same, apart from the first tier.

    Also the people who are the complainers (aka trials and non-main raiders) are way less likely to even get into the raids since all loot can't be funneled into the people that are ~guaranteed to be there on important progress bosses, which in turn creates more drama.

    All in all the change is bad and is nothing but babysitting for bad (and stupid) players who won't leave a guild that doesn't give them loot (because they're bad/stupid).

  18. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    And with the change the same people who ticket about "not getting loot in a guild" are gonna ticket "player X didn't give me loot when he could've". Stupid people will still make stupid tickets,
    1) While I am sure there will be the odd guy who does this, there is little basis to believe that the problem won't be significantly reduced. Blizzard have had personal loot in place for some time now, giving them plenty of data on how it affects the number of tickets. It's a sure bet (even if it isn't obvious to you) that this is going to have a dramatic impact on ticket numbers.

    2) Even if some retard tries this, it's a lot easier to sort out quickly and with less potential forwithout pissing off multiple players.

    When a player ninja's a piece of loot and it is ticketed:
    1) the GM has to investigate what happened and go back in the chat logs to see if there was any loot agreement beforehand
    2) if it was indeed a case of ninjaing, then the GM has contact the culprit and explain to them why their item is being taken away and then remove the item
    3) the GM has to contact the victim and explain what steps that person should take in the future (eg ensure that a proper loot agreement is in place, don't join groups using ML etc). The GM then has to try and placate that player while explaining that he won't get that piece of loot even though it was clearly ninja'd

    When a player complains about not being handed a piece of loot that someone else won, and it is ticketed:
    1) The GM can copy paste a standard reply "Sorry player X, but personal loot belongs to the person who won it and it is entirely their right and prerogative to do with it as they deem fit. I know it's unfortunate for you but that is just the way it is. Better luck next time!"

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    just as they are going to stay in guilds that aren't going to take them into raids as likely because they'd just take loot away from players that actually need them.
    Sorry but what you have written here is very garbled, so I may have misinterpretted your meaning:

    With personal loot you literally cannot take any loot away from another player. If you're trying to say that guilds will not bring guildees to raid who refuse to accede to guild requests to trade gear to other players, then I am not sure where you think the problem is. Reasonable guilds won't make unreasonable demands on their raiders, and reasonable raiders will act in the best interests of the guild. Shitty guilds that insist on forcing unreasonable demands on players will find themselves short on players, and shitty players who refuse to act like reasonable team members will find themselves kicked out. What you're left with is a guild of like-minded people all of whom benefit from working together.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Loot isn't tradeable if it is ilvl upgrade for you and Azerite gear isn't tradeable at all.
    And the problem with this is? All it means is that the ability to bolster the gearing rate for highly geared players is throttled a bit. And since this applies to all guilds equally, it doesn't put anyone at a disadvantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    What it does is increase annoyance with loot trading, since it has to be done manually,
    If you're trying to emulate Master Looter then it might make things marginally more complicated. But really, is it all that much of a problem for people to trade an item to another member of the group? Sounds like a bit of hyperbole to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    and lower the average ilvl "main" characters have going into Mythic raids.
    For the vast majority of players this will be pretty negligible. For groups that employ alts to loot funnel it will have an effect. But quite frankly I don't see why reducing the ilevel gap between split-raid groups and regular raid groups should be a real problem. If anything that's a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Amount of alts/split runs is likely to stay the same, apart from the first tier.
    Yes, but the effectiveness of it will be less. In other words the penalty suffered by groups that don't do split runs will be reduced.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Also the people who are the complainers (aka trials and non-main raiders) are way less likely to even get into the raids since all loot can't be funneled into the people that are ~guaranteed to be there on important progress bosses, which in turn creates more drama.
    The purpose of trials is to recruit new players to a guild, which is necessary to manage natural attrition. If a guild is going to stop bringing trials to raids because of loot issues, they're shooting themselves in the foot.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    All in all the change is bad and is nothing but babysitting for bad (and stupid) players who won't leave a guild that doesn't give them loot (because they're bad/stupid).
    And what about all I said that you replied to? This change is happening because Blizzard have metrics that tell them that ML causes a lot of shit. They have metrics that tell them that moving to PL results in a lot less drama. No one ever said it would remove all the drama, but I think you'd have to be pretty stubborn to not be able to recognise how this is going to have a significant positive impact.

    Anyhow, this change is coming. You can choose to either sulk about it or accept it and move on. But I can see it now, there are going to be players who will insist on being grumpy about this, not because it is actually bad, but because they are too stubborn to give a try and risk the chance of being proven wrong. For some people, admitting they are wrong is far too high a price for being happy. I have zero sympathy for such people and I doubt anyone else does either.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    The primary reason Blizzard are moving entirely to personal loot system is that it reduces loot drama. Loot drama has historically been one of the biggest sources of GM tickets (how do I know this? My brother was a GM with them for 7 years).

    The simple fact is that every time there is a ticket, not only does it require intervention by a GM which is a cost for Blizzard, but it is also indicative of a negative player experience. Even with GM intervention, loot complaints are seldom resolved to anyone's satisfaction. Blizzard have a policy of not enforcing any loot trade based on tickets because that would encourage people to chance their luck by ticketing GMs. What they will do, however, is take ill-gained loot away from the ninja.

    So in the end, no one wins. You've got an upset player who was ninja'd, your ninja is upset because he got caught and punished, and the GM has wasted time. Master Looter was a fine idea, but the data that Blizzard have gathered over many years tells them that it has these inherent problems. And before people try to regale us with anecdotes about how it can't be a problem in guilds, the fact that Blizzard are taking this step suggests that their hard data says otherwise.


    Anyhow, I don't see what all the fuss is about. With the ability to trade loot anyway, for most decent guilds things will be pretty much unaffected. The major difference though that is that no one can force another player to give up their fair share of the loot.

    As for the arguments about this will make loot distibution less efficient, slow down progression, put good guilds at a disadvantage etc, those are pretty much entirely spurious arguments. The fact is that the rate at which people gear up is already artificial and happens at the pace that it is designed to happen. The effects of changing from ML to PL can be cancelled out by tuning other things like drop rates. If progression is slowed, it won't be because of PL, it will be because Blizzard designed it that way. Also, ML never gave any guilds any kind of advantage if every other competing guild was also using it. The important thing for competitive play is that everyone is on the same system, not what that system is.
    Finally a good answer, i'm still for ML but you sir, gave a good reason to be optimistic for BFA.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    1) While I am sure there will be the odd guy who does this, there is little basis to believe that the problem won't be significantly reduced. Blizzard have had personal loot in place for some time now, giving them plenty of data on how it affects the number of tickets. It's a sure bet (even if it isn't obvious to you) that this is going to have a dramatic impact on ticket numbers.
    There is little basis that the "problem" will take any less time than it currently takes. CS only handles loot trades etc. if loot is actually ninja'd aka there has been clear instructions how loot is distributed (in case of boost runs etc) and it doesn't happen in such a way. Being in a guild instantly negates this and thus ML "ninjaing" aka not giving you loot is not a basis for loot trades and thus the player just gets pre-generated answer.

    Any actual issues will remain to be so and won't take any less time than it currently does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    2) Even if some retard tries this, it's a lot easier to sort out quickly and with less potential forwithout pissing off multiple players.
    It takes the same amount of time as it currently does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    When a player ninja's a piece of loot and it is ticketed:
    1) the GM has to investigate what happened and go back in the chat logs to see if there was any loot agreement beforehand
    2) if it was indeed a case of ninjaing, then the GM has contact the culprit and explain to them why their item is being taken away and then remove the item
    3) the GM has to contact the victim and explain what steps that person should take in the future (eg ensure that a proper loot agreement is in place, don't join groups using ML etc). The GM then has to try and placate that player while explaining that he won't get that piece of loot even though it was clearly ninja'd
    Without evidence of actual ninja, aka SS of conversations and loot rules, there no need to investigate any further. General pre-generated answer is enough in these cases.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    When a player complains about not being handed a piece of loot that someone else won, and it is ticketed:
    1) The GM can copy paste a standard reply "Sorry player X, but personal loot belongs to the person who won it and it is entirely their right and prerogative to do with it as they deem fit. I know it's unfortunate for you but that is just the way it is. Better luck next time!"
    And currently the GM can copypaste the standard "Sorry player X, but you accepted the loot rules when you joined the guild/run and it is the guilds right to do with it as they deem fit. I know it's unfortunate for you but that is just the way it is. Have a nice day!

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Sorry but what you have written here is very garbled, so I may have misinterpretted your meaning:

    With personal loot you literally cannot take any loot away from another player. If you're trying to say that guilds will not bring guildees to raid who refuse to accede to guild requests to trade gear to other players, then I am not sure where you think the problem is. Reasonable guilds won't make unreasonable demands on their raiders, and reasonable raiders will act in the best interests of the guild. Shitty guilds that insist on forcing unreasonable demands on players will find themselves short on players, and shitty players who refuse to act like reasonable team members will find themselves kicked out. What you're left with is a guild of like-minded people all of whom benefit from working together.
    IF a player, who isn't going to be in the main progression, is in the raid then he can take loot away from the progress since not all loot can be traded. Thus he won't be taken into the raid at all.

    Currently you can take non-main raiders or trials on farm bosses, funnel all the useful loot to main raiders that need them and give the extra to the rest (and they have a chance to coin as well).

    Literally some of the people who whined about not getting loot with ML will now whine that they won't even get into raids because of the chance that they'll get valuable loot over others.

    Shitty guilds that use ML "maliciously" should find themselves short on players, yet that clearly isn't the case since theres "so many" people being abused. If you seriously want to use this argument then there is literally zero reasons to remove ML in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    And the problem with this is? All it means is that the ability to bolster the gearing rate for highly geared players is throttled a bit. And since this applies to all guilds equally, it doesn't put anyone at a disadvantage.
    The problem is that you'll end up wasting a lot of loot potential. You can get a 5 ilvl upgrade and not be able to trade it for a player who'd get 30 ilvl's. You might get 5 ilvl upgrade on a trinket thats actually a downgrade yet you can't trade it for players who find the trinket BiS.

    It also brings down questionable loot specs for bosses. In order to maximize possible weapon and trinket drops you'd always have to use a spec that gets the most of them (for trading purposes later on). As in a Balance druid would have loot spec as feral for a boss that drops only melee trinkets/weapons in order to have those items in their iventory for future drops to trade away.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    If you're trying to emulate Master Looter then it might make things marginally more complicated. But really, is it all that much of a problem for people to trade an item to another member of the group? Sounds like a bit of hyperbole to me.
    Compared to 1 guy taking care of the loot vs going around the raid trading things, yes its alot mroe complicated and more time consuming. Not to even mention having to check whether a person can trade the loot or not (obviously not a problem for people that care about killing the bosses, aka the ones who don't support ML removal)

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    For the vast majority of players this will be pretty negligible. For groups that employ alts to loot funnel it will have an effect. But quite frankly I don't see why reducing the ilevel gap between split-raid groups and regular raid groups should be a real problem. If anything that's a good thing.
    For vast majority of players the change doesn't even apply to. The change really focuses on organized guilds who want to clear instances asap, those are guilds that use split runs to further speed things up.

    Whether it actually takes longer to clear instances with the change (due to lower average ilvl) is down to how Blizzard balances the instances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Yes, but the effectiveness of it will be less. In other words the penalty suffered by groups that don't do split runs will be reduced.
    Which is exactly what I said. People will stil do it though and it opens possibilities for further class stacking since all characters have ~equal gear in the first week(s).

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    The purpose of trials is to recruit new players to a guild, which is necessary to manage natural attrition. If a guild is going to stop bringing trials to raids because of loot issues, they're shooting themselves in the foot.
    They'll stop it during progress unless they really, really need them. There are more ways to evaluate players than having them in on the current progress raid farm bosses.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    And what about all I said that you replied to? This change is happening because Blizzard have metrics that tell them that ML causes a lot of shit. They have metrics that tell them that moving to PL results in a lot less drama. No one ever said it would remove all the drama, but I think you'd have to be pretty stubborn to not be able to recognise how this is going to have a significant positive impact.
    And all of that is based on your assumptions. There have been no data regarding any of your arguments.
    You'd have to be equally stubborn to not be able to recognise how this is going to have a significant negative impact.

    People who feel like they should get loot while they (in most cases) don't deserve them will be happy (if they find themselves in raids)
    The rest are going to be mad.

    If you think that "significant" positive impact outweights the negative, well I have no words for such a person.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Anyhow, this change is coming. You can choose to either sulk about it or accept it and move on. But I can see it now, there are going to be players who will insist on being grumpy about this, not because it is actually bad, but because they are too stubborn to give a try and risk the chance of being proven wrong. For some people, admitting they are wrong is far too high a price for being happy. I have zero sympathy for such people and I doubt anyone else does either.
    I know its coming and I've accepted it just fine. Just because it's coming doens't mean its good or any of the negative aspects of it suddenly vanish.

    With your logic whenver a change is coming we should just keep our mouths shut and "deal with it". In reality the reason for as stupid comment as that is the fact that you realized you can't actually counter the arguments made here but are unwilling to face the facts.

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