Is the attack on teldrassil really that unjustified?

[Haven]

"OH YEAH! I DON'T WANT THE ALLIANCE MAKING AZERITE WEAPONS AGAINST THE HORDE! SO, LEMME JUST TAKE SOME AZERITE, AND CREATE SOME NEW AZERITE WEAPONRY AGAINST THE ALLIANCE, ALL FOR THE PROTECTION OF THE HORDE! CAUSE, THAT MAKES TOTAL LOGICAL SENSE, RIGHT?! RIGHT?!"

Like, shut the fuck up, Sylvanas.

Dude you just summed up American foreign policy.

[karumayu]

It is justified (somewhat) from the horde perspective, but they need to show Alliance hostility in game. Part of the reason, I believe the horde motivations seems unclear, is due to not showing Alliance actually winning any decisive victories against the horde. (Quests and stories that deal with Alliance aggression results always in Alliance forces gets beaten and horde forces victorious.) When there are no losses on Horde side that are comparable to the Alliance loses at Horde's hands, it starts to feel this war is unjustified.


Side thought: Is it clear which party is responsible for Teldrassil burning? If there are no conclusive evidence on what might started the fire, then I would speculate that our Artifacts filled to brim with Corruptive energies from Sargeras' sword might cause the unintended fire at Teldrassil.

[Doffen]

spinning

Yeah yeah, brilliant as always. Those fanfictions are still strong.

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>we had an intended order (past tense)
>it works really well to do them in any order now
Completely irrelevant statements that didn't make it into live. We may as well say Wetlands was attacked by the Legion because that was a planned invasion point for a while, even though it never happened. Why do you think @Tabrotar and @Shattenlied immediately ran off from the thread when confronted with the quote and @Feanoro is so assblasted he won't even give me a mention while he's passive-aggressively sperging about me?

What you also forget to mention is that the quest has two versions. In the Alliance version, this gets to Genn at some unknown point in time in the Horde version the information gets shredded. Since there's no proof either way and Genn knows nothing at the time he attacks and indeed up until the very end as I already showed you. But even if we accept cut content as canonical, which it isn't, the Horde version being canon makes more sense to explain how Genn and Rogers never bring up this salient point to the player, something Sylvanas does when explaining why she's going to Stormheim because she knows about it and they don't - they just want to kill her.

Nah, you said tabrotar didnt have any source, I provided you one. That's all. What they talk about the video is that they implemented scaling so you could start in whatever zone you wanted. Not once they said they changed the story.

[mickybrighteyes]

I'm pretty sure even Sylvanas says that Calia was acting independently.

Yes, because she couldn't believe Anduin to be stupid enough to do it himself.

[Mehrunes]

1) Technically, the Horde started the fighting at Ashran. It's unclear how canon Ashran is though, as it hasn't been brought up in lore aside from specifically mentioning that the Horde attacked first under the impression that the Alliance was hunting a super weapon under the battleground.

There's also no canon casualty of Ashran. The most I could find in Ashran quests and gossip text was that someone had their foot damaged.

2) The Alliance fully believed, at least until the book, that Sylvanas abandoned Varian to his death on the Broken Shore. At the very least, it sounds like Anduin believes this wasn't the case anymore after his talk with Sylvanas pre-Desolate Council/Calia fiasco, we'll see if anyone else follows suit.

And yet the only reasons for them to have ever believed that were prejudice and confirmation bias. The reason for the Horde's retreat, i.e. the spaceships, are visible from Alliance position in game. The gunship would have provided the Alliance the aerial view of the Horde position after they boarded it, including the part where it was swarming with demons because the Horde side had active portals with demons constantly pouring through.

Then there's the part where it's simply illogical. Even if the Horde wanted to fuck the Alliance over, they wouldn't do it by risking the very world they live on, because the Horde kinda likes being alive. Sylvanas more than anyone else because she's terrified of dying again. Or the part where after Broken Shore we immediately learn we needed the Pillars of Creation because we couldn't have won without them. Which means that the Horde's retreat, which spurred the Alliance to retreat as well, effectively allowed both factions to survive a fight they couldn't win (especially since if the Alliance waited any longer, Gul'dan would have likely dropped the Fel Reaver while they were still on the ground, turning the Alliance into a BBQ for demons).

Finally, Rogue campaign shows Alliance was infiltrated by the Legion. Which not only fed them false information about the Broken Shore, but was trying to turn Anduin and other leaders against the Horde. If the Horde betrayed the Alliance in Legion's favor, why would the Legion want the Horde attacked for their service?

The likes of Genn and Rogers saw betrayal because they wanted to see betrayal. Which Genn made clear already in the Broken Shore cinematic. His immediate reaction to the Horde's retreat was that he knew from the start they couldn't have been trusted. Without paying any attention to context or further information.

3) After Greymane's encounter with Sylvanas in Stormheim, the Alliance has every reason to believe she's up to no good. (His initial action was definitely out of line and should have been met with bigger effect - But when his report includes "Prevented Sylvanas from enslaving a Titan Watcher's servant" it's hard to argue that they didn't stumble upon something making their attack worthwhile.)

But it was not met with a bigger effect. And then Genn was one of the few people Anduin brought to the Gathering, which in light of Alliance not doing anything about Stormheim could have very well been perceived as a taunt.

3) The Alliance sent Explorer's League scouts - Not military - to Silithus before sending anyone to investigate the goblin miners. (With the exception of at least one scout who initially reported the Azerite sighting while investigating the sword.) Those explorer's league scouts were killed on sight. (Granted, the Explorer's League is Alliance-based, so it's likely they were confused for soldiers - The fact remains, the Horde killed Explorer's League members without provocation before the Alliance attacked the Horde in Silithus.)

That's not really. The book doesn't retcon the 7.3.5 questline. The events of their starting cinematics are repeated pretty much word for word. Including the bit about Shaw already having people on it to investigate the Horde further. Not only are his people the SI:7 because he has no authority over the Explorer's League, but the Explorer's League was sent only later on in the book. And SI:7 is a military force. The cinematic was then followed in-game with Shaw immediately sending the player to Silithus. The player then killed Horde miners.

[NED funded]

Dalaran rejoined the Alliance after Purge of Dalaran.




And? How does that justify Alliance attacking the Horde? The Horde is not bound by Alliance or the Cenarion Circle.




You're saying this as if it mattered anything. Yay, Sylvanas was told something she was under no obligation to adhere to. Because neither the Alliance nor Magni have the authority to tell the Horde to do shit.




What? The Alliance didn't contribute anything of value to Draenor blowing up. It's all on Ner'zhul. Alliance only tried to interfere with his artifact hunt. Cracking the Frozen Throne is entirely on Illidan, who worked on orders from Kil'jaeden and teamed up with Blood Elves that already left the Alliance and Naga sent by Azshara. In Legion Alliance was by no means the driving force behind the Legion's downfall.




And now you're engaging in the typical Alliance lie. Alliance isn't a poor, victimized faction that only ever reacts to the Horde aggression. Alliance started the previous war. That's canon lore as per Chronicle v3. Alliance shot first in the previous conflict.




First sign of aggression for 20 years? You do realize that the garrison of Tiragarde was Kul Tiran prior to the Cataclysm, right?




Simply repeating the grand Alliance lie won't magically make it truth. Also, Silithus and Stormheim were plenty provoking.




What service? With Eyir in tow Sylvanas would finally stop needing new corpses since she'd be able to make the current Forsaken immortal. Genn prevented that, effectively repainting the target mark on every Alliance human. Also, those effects have nothing to do with why he attacked and are something that happened later. Genn doesn't get to unprovoke his attack because of its later consequences.




If only the Explorer's League was in Silithus before the SI:7 that attacked the Goblins... If only.




But pushing them out is the opposite of what she tried to do. She wanted to occupy Night Elven territory with Night Elves still there. To prevent any Alliance counter-maneuver by effectively holding the Night Elven population hostage.




Sylvanas not engaging with the Alliance and thus not preventing Alliance aggression does not mean she is culpable for said Alliance aggression. The Horde just lost its Warchief and it was in a war against the Legion. It didn't have the proper opportunity to argue against potential delusions of the likes of Genn. And it's not like Genn gave her a lot of time anyway. Plus the same argument could be levied against the Alliance. Given how they were the ones to attack, much more accurately. Because they are the ones who decided to act without knowing the full story, not the Horde.

I'm pretty sure that when you are actions are directly causing the planet to die then one is justified in stopping those that do it.

[Mehrunes]

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=40794/f...ueens-reprisal

They had intel suggesting Sylvanas was there to steal power for herself. Greymane still hadn't gotten justice for the death of his son, he went and got it.

Would you look at that, here's a Horde version: http://www.wowhead.com/quest=42244/f...ueens-reprisal

Try to give any source indicating it's the Horde version that's not canon. Given how Alliance, Genn himself included, mention multiple times during Stormheim questline (after the attack) that they don't know what Sylvanas is up to, which contradicts the possibility of them having the book even before the attack, have fun with that.

No she didn't, she was just trying to save those who already wanted to leave. People should be allowed to leave if they want to.

Except she asked Elsie to support her and later on revealed herself to the Desolate Council and yelled to them to follow her. Also, there's people leaving and then there's high ranking officials that had access to crucial and confidential information defecting to the enemy, with a usurper spurring them on thrown in the mix.

Given that we don't know the canon quest order for that zone, it's entirely possible that it was retaliation for the Horde player killing the SI:7 agents at the command of the leader of the miners. The Horde quest says the spies were just "snoopin around", which strongly suggests no hostilities had taken place yet.

We may not know it for sure, but we have a clear indication. Because when the Alliance player arrives in Silithus they are outright briefed on the activities of the previous spies. And they are merely informed that those spies weren't successful because they were engaging in passive forms of spying, which is why the player is tasked with a direct approach instead since Alliance needed results. Nothing about those earlier spies being killed, let alone discovered.

SI:7 is an elite covert ops organization. If their operation has already been made and their agents have been killed, they'd inform their newly arrived agent (i.e. the player) of those circumstances, so that said agent doesn't blindly walk into a camp that's already aware of the Alliance operation and as such is on high alert. Especially if the new agent is tasked with a more direct approach.

Nothing indicates that the Alliance spies have already been discovered at the start of the Alliance questline (after all, if elite spies of the Alliance's first spy group were engaging only in passive observation it'd be hard for the Horde to detect them). Yet they are discovered at the start of the Horde one (because Alliance spies engaging in direct approach consisting of blowing shit up and dropping bodies is much more noticeable). That indicates the Alliance questline starts first.

But even if that was not the case, the Horde has the right to protect their camps. The Alliance on the other hand has no right to infiltrate them. Even if the Alliance spies getting killed in the Horde camp happens first, their very presence in said camp was already a hostile act. That obviously precluded them getting killed.

I'm pretty sure that when you are actions are directly causing the planet to die then one is justified in stopping those that do it.

Since when is Alliance world police? China, US, India and other big polluters are going to fuck Earth over within 20 years if they don't change their behavior, because we will pass carbon budget. Does it give the more environmentally responsible nations the right to attack them?

[mickybrighteyes]

It is justified (somewhat) from the horde perspective, but they need to show Alliance hostility in game. Part of the reason, I believe the horde motivations seems unclear, is due to not showing Alliance actually winning any decisive victories against the horde. (Quests and stories that deal with Alliance aggression results always in Alliance forces gets beaten and horde forces victorious.) When there are no losses on Horde side that are comparable to the Alliance loses at Horde's hands, it starts to feel this war is unjustified.

it's not that the Alliance has to 'win' it's that they are very rarely shown to be all that violent and when they ARE... it gets brushed aside. You look at how people discuss stormheim and it's a good bet people will be all "Genn did it to stop Sylvanas from enslaving Eyir".... We look at cata era Thrall's near capture and the sinking of the Goblin slave boat... we take a peak at Varian in the siege of undercity post Wrathgate .... it's not that the Alliance is never shown as being aggressive it's that it never really takes center stage. It's a small nod in quests while leveling that gets forgotten cause it's never touched on again.

Side thought: Is it clear which party is responsible for Teldrassil burning? If there are no conclusive evidence on what might started the fire, then I would speculate that our Artifacts filled to brim with Corruptive energies from Sargeras' sword might cause the unintended fire at Teldrassil.

The key info wasn't released on the beta. Cutscenes remain unseen. All the details we get is horde pushes through to Darkshore ending in taking the northern town the elves set up. Quests cut out for horde after taking the town. Alliance got another quest with placeholder details and a final port to Stormwind.

Since they were tight lipped about the actual burning I can only assume we'll all be disappointed cause everyone hyped themselves up for a certain expected result and everyones' theories are likely far more detailed than what the devs will go with (especially given how the azerite business seems to have gone).

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Since when is Alliance world police?

since the alliance was the main faction of the world in warcraft 1?

But it's true they meddle in the affairs of everyone and atm we have this lovely idea that magically enhanced beings who hear voices are somehow credible based on their word alone. It's been rather hit or miss every OTHER time this type of reasoning was used so you'd think everyone would maybe want second opinions on matters concerning global scale issues.

[NED funded]

Yes. But only after the massacre had started.



Later, after the Rangers have started killing everyone, she realizes that it wasn't Anduin's ploy, but Calia's thoughtlessness. Which included encouraging Elsie to defect before the horn was blown.



Which, by the way, indicates that ALL the other Forsaken of the Desolate Council were defecting, and it's only Elsie who was loyal to Sylvanas. Which really mollifies Sylvanas's later statements about "How many were tempted?" if everyone but Elsie was actually defecting but some ran back when the horn blew out of Fear.

On to the list:

1) While Jaina never commits genocide, the Horde is aware of her intent to do so and she's still (Again?) a powerful member of the Alliance. Alongside Greymane and Rogers who both want (or wanted, in Genn's case) to commit genocide. Failure to commit genocide, today, does not mean they won't try again, tomorrow. And defending oneself against that threat could be considered justified (So long as the Means are morally nappropriate based on the threat)

2) The only recent example of the danger the Alliance poses.

3) According to Golden's book, the Alliance Player reaches Silithus before the Horde Player does. The events that become the in-game cinematic for the Alliance plays out two chapters of chronological novel -before- the Horde Cinematic follows. Anduin learns of Azerite before Sylvanas. Which means the Alliance Player is killing Goblins before the Horde gets there. (Also the attacks on the Explorer's League happen between chapters Six and Eighteen. We don't know exactly when... but well after the Alliance -and- Horde players have been to Silithus)

4) Sylvanas can't attack Stormwind head on. Even the combined Horde Forces would get killed before they managed to take the city. The Horde needs to be stronger or the Alliance needs to be weaker before she makes that move.

1. Intent to commit genocide doesn't really count IMO. It's one thing to defend yourself against someone that has actually got boots on the ground and started attacking you and going by this Genn and Sky Admiral Rogers are both rightfully skeptical of Sylvanas' actions in Stormheim and of attacking her considering what she did on Silverpine forest.

3. Still trying to kill the planet is not cool.

[Mehrunes]

You killed your own argument. What she plans to do is stop the meeting with the preset signal, which she does. Then, when she hears Calia is there, she decides to kill them because she can see people deserting and she can see Calia, so she has every reason to believe it's a coup. Her gruesome murder of eight people who were innocent and she had no way of knowing this and four who were guilty traitors in high office will surely be the end for Sylvanas. None of this was premeditated, it was a spontaneous decision to the reasonable assumption that the meeting was being used to gather support behind a pretender to her seat.

That's a stretch. We only know Elsie was innocent for sure. The remaining 7 were unspecified.

[Mardux]

You are going to have to explain that to me because from the very moment you talk to Blightcaller they want every Alliance that could possibly see it dead. Meanwhile on Alliance they want someone who can survive impossible odds and get out alive.

And if you are trying to defend it as them just protecting themselves from the big evil Alliance then every single bad thing the Alliance has ever done would be justified as well.

The alliance players (and writers) already try to justify every single bad thing the alliance has ever done though. :/

[NED funded]

Since when is Alliance world police? China, US, India and other big polluters are going to fuck Earth over within 20 years if they don't change their behavior, because we will pass carbon budget. Does it give the more environmentally responsible nations the right to attack them?

Pollution is much different than killing the planet itself. Life can recover in time once we extinguish, killing the titan pretty much just dooms the entire planet with no chance of recovery and mining azerite is a much more direct form of killing the planet than polluting since its entirely avoidable (We have not seen any QOL improvements for citizens as a result of mining azerite.

[mickybrighteyes]

1. Intent to commit genocide doesn't really count IMO. It's one thing to defend yourself against someone that has actually got boots on the ground and started attacking you and going by this Genn and Sky Admiral Rogers are both rightfully skeptical of Sylvanas' actions in Stormheim and of attacking her considering what she did on Silverpine forest.

That's cool and all... but it wasn't actions in silverpine that caused Rogers and Genn to be the way they are. Nevermind that their actions are also fuel to the fire making the whole idea of being unable to exist on the same continent have more merit. Now to be quite honest... BOTH these characters are shown to be far more genocidal than any but nameless hostile npc's with every encounter they show up in. Hell, even the result of Gilneas wasn't a war started with the intent to kill Gilneans to teh man (a notion that Genn has espoused for Forsaken and Rogers has acted upon in Pandaria

3. Still trying to kill the planet is not cool.

I'd say it's more the world soul rather than the planet and the ramifications of the world soul's death are unknown. Magni shows up, doesn't really know what's going on. Says azeroth is dying and that's about all we know on the subject. The usage of Azerite is unknown. The side effects, unknown. What does a world soul mean? unknown... we have a lot of unknowns here and you're trying to focus on the 'death' of the planet only... which we still have no idea if the planet's world soul remaining or not would even affect anything. considering we have gone to other worlds lacking world souls, the effect of it may not even matter much for the residents of the planet. And before someone mentions argus.... the Argus world soul didn't die to get it into the state it's in.

[Mehrunes]

Anduin states the obvious given the precarious political reality between the Horde and Alliance post-Broken Shore. I am unsure there is a cut-and-dry casus belli for either side going into BfA, to speak plainly. Stormheim is probably the biggest but, all in all, it's a relatively minor skirmish - nothing that couldn't be explained away by a distraught Genn and Rogers apologizing or being formally chastised for an unprovoked on the Horde (not that happens either, but it would be an easy way to heal that rift).

That their initial attack could be healed with Genn and Rogers apologizing or Anduin giving them a slightly more stern talk than he already did is already questionable. But that's not all they did. Their later behavior in Stormheim ruined the security of Sylvanas and her entire race. To cool Sylvanas down after that Anduin would need to grow balls and actually punish Genn and Rogers for crimes against peace.

Offset somewhat by our knowledge that Sylvanas still planned a unilateral strike against Stormwind before Silithus came into the equation and changed her plans. Sylvanas wanted a reason to enter into a war with the Alliance, one way or the other, but from the internal perspective of the game this conflict as at least more justified than her campaign against Stormwind would've been.

A strike she wouldn't need if Genn and Rogers haven't done the above.

While I would say the Alliance still occupies a stronger position than the Horde, I don't think the imbalance is as great post-Legion as it was post-MoP (when the above "superpower" statement was made). Post-Legion I would say the standing is Alliance >= Horde, not quite Alliance > Horde or even Alliance >> Horde. Azerite, of course, has the power to throw this entirely out whack and would easily put the controlling faction to the left of any number of ">" operators. Whoever controls the flow and application of Azerite controls Azeroth, at this point - and Sylvanas does not want to be caught in a world where the formula ends up Alliance >>> Horde given her stated overriding goals.

The superpower statement was walked back on the moment Blizzard decided majority of Orcs joined the rebellion. And there's nothing to support the notion they have ever been close to a superpower to begin with. They were losing the war left and right before the Horde underwent a rebellion. And the strongest nation of the Alliance has always been Stormwind. A nation that has been (almost completely) demolished three times in less than a century (twice of which happened in the last ~20 years).

A nation that was almost obliterated by the shambling corpse of the Gurrubashi Empire or Gnolls is the antithesis of strong. If Stormwind is still the backbone of the Alliance after all of that, which included getting steamrolled by a sliver of what the Horde is now (the Old Horde sent only a port of its forces to check out Azeroth during the First War), that makes the rest of the Alliance as dangerous as a paraplegic frog. And they only lost even more since MoP ended (including losing more than the Horde, comparatively).

[Aucald]

That their initial attack could be healed with Genn and Rogers apologizing or Anduin giving them a slightly more stern talk than he already did is already questionable. But that's not all they did. Their later behavior in Stormheim ruined the security of Sylvanas and her entire race. To cool Sylvanas down after that Anduin would need to grow balls and actually punish Genn and Rogers for crimes against peace.

I agree about the initial attack in Stormheim, but as for Sylvanas maintaining the "security" of her entire race by capturing and enslaving another being that had never harmed her as well as any subsequent beings it might otherwise produce - well, that would fall firmly under the heading of "not good things to allow." Sylvanas had no right to Eyir or her Val'kyr, even if it was to her or the Forsaken's benefit - not that Genn cared overly about that, but the end-result of Genn's interference produced a good thing (freeing Eyir from possible eternal bondage).

A strike she wouldn't need if Genn and Rogers haven't done the above.

True, but not really of consequence either - attacking Stormwind to consume its dead and create new Forsaken from them is pretty much as bad as enslaving Eyir and her future Val'kyr (or worse, YMMV).

The superpower statement was walked back on the moment Blizzard decided majority of Orcs joined the rebellion. And there's nothing to support the notion they have ever been close to a superpower to begin with. They were losing the war left and right before the Horde underwent a rebellion. And the strongest nation of the Alliance has always been Stormwind. A nation that has been (almost completely) demolished three times in less than a century (twice in around 20 years). A nation that was almost obliterated by the shambling corpse of the Gurrubashi Empire or Gnolls is the antithesis of strong. If Stormwind is still the backbone of the Alliance after all of that, which included getting steamrolled by a sliver of what the Horde is now, that makes the rest of the Alliance as dangerous as a paraplegic frog. And they only lost even more since MoP ended (including losing more than the Horde, comparatively).

The Alliance cast itself in the role of peacekeeper, trying to wipe the foaming spittle from Garrosh's jaws as opposed to confronting him head-on. That being said, the Alliance despite its hesitance to commit itself had something the Horde distinctly lacked: cohesion among its own leadership and the full commitment of its client-races. That alone, if nothing else, cements it the comparative operator of ">=" in my mind. This of course got much worse as Garrosh further divided his own people and set them against him, culminating in his ouster at SoO. A Horde recovering from an internal schism would definitely fall behind the fully unified Alliance in terms of political power, although by the time of Legion this difference had largely been cemented over and the two factions were on roughly equal footing. Over the course of Legion and the dual losses on both sides I would say parity has now been reached just in time for BfA's events.

[Mehrunes]

Anduin -looooooves- peace. He adores it. If he could force Peace into an anthropomorphized form I think it's a safe bet that he would marry that hot piece of Peace.

... so why doesn't he move to create peace in Before the Storm? He makes it -super- clear that he isn't making an overture to peace when he sends the letter to Sylvanas about The Gathering. That he isn't searching for it and all that... but why?

Because he's a lying hypocrite that chastises everyone else for not being pro-peace enough and decrees them beyond saving in some cases, but when it comes to himself all he and his holy bones of truth can manage is making limp-wristed gestures and saying empty platitudes. If Anduin was actually about peace, he'd actually punish Genn and Rogers for their crimes against peace (that required them to shit on his own orders on top of that). But he didn't. Instead he gave them a talk. Which isn't even a slap on the wrists.

Because he doesn't want peace with the Horde. Spineless Alliance sycophants like Baine got him too used to relations with the Horde where the Horde member either grovels at his feet or, if Anduin feels frisky, present their behinds for their Alliance overlord to use. Making peace with the Horde would require treating them like an equal, and this ain't what he's accustomed to.

But he didn't... Three Lies he will offer you.

Pretty much.

[Doffen]

A strike she wouldn't need if Genn and Rogers haven't done the above.

Nice headcanon there. You have no idea what she would have done or not. Maybe stop talking trash to people when they actually follow lore, since you are coming with speculations, with no logic whatsoever.

[Raelbo]

What Greymane did in Stormheim was a violation of this armistice, yes, but in his oppinion the Horde broke it first at Broken Shore. Which is not completely untrue. Or when did the motto of the Horde change from "Victory or Death" to "Run for your Life"?

sigh. Yes, of course we all get what Greymane thought. But it was completely untrue and heavily influenced by his strong (even if justified) prejudice agains the Horde. Varian did not die because the Horde retreated. He died because the Horde and the Alliance walked into Gul'dan's trap. Even if Sylvanas had not ordered the retreat, there is nothing more that the Horde forces would have accomplished other than dying a heroic, pointless death. If anything, the fact that Sylvanas issued the retreat is probably the only reason that Genn and Gallywix and the rest of the Alliance forces (ie players) are even still around today. Because it was her sounding her horn that alerted the Alliance to the fact that they no longer had support from the cliffs and forced Varian to issue his own retreat. If, instead, the Horde forces had held their ground until they were cut down a few minutes later, Varians group would have been even further up the proverbial creek, and it's doubtful any would have made it out alive.

And just quit it already with "Victory or Death". In the end the Horde were victorious, so they lived up to their motto. A tactical retreat in order to avoid getting slaughtered fruitlessly in a carefully laid trap, so that you can live to fight another day, can be considered to be taking a long term approach to achieving victory. That doesn't mean that the Horde are cowards, it simply means they're not mindless idiots.

[Bigby]

I like how people go "b-but Genn broke the peace with Stormheim!" but always very conveniently leave out Ashran, when the Horde's paranoid kicked in again and they decided to attack the Alliance out of sheer delusion. Again.

[Steampunkette]

1. Intent to commit genocide doesn't really count IMO. It's one thing to defend yourself against someone that has actually got boots on the ground and started attacking you and going by this Genn and Sky Admiral Rogers are both rightfully skeptical of Sylvanas' actions in Stormheim and of attacking her considering what she did on Silverpine forest.

3. Still trying to kill the planet is not cool.

1) Garithos, Varian, Jaina, Genn, and Daelin have all at various times declared intent to commit genocide on the Horde Races. And these events were spread out over the course of 10 years. Roughly one declaration of intent to commit genocide every 2-3 years (With Genn and Daelin declaring it twice, actually, for a total of 7 declarations of intention to commit genocide in a decade). There were also four attempted genocides, one of which was successful: Garithos with Dalaran's aid, Daelin on Kalimdor, The Dwarves of Bael'dun who didn't -declare- their intent, they just did it, and the attempted genocide of the Goblins of Kezan which also was not declared but ultimately failed. And then Genn dropped canonfire onto the Forsaken Fleet in Stormheim to act on his well known hatred of the Forsaken who he wants dead.

Since the first declaration of intent to commit genocide (Year 18 when Gilneas bailed since Terenas wouldn't let Daelin and Genn commit genocide on the orcs that were all imprisoned) it's been 15 years (Year 33 is now).

We're overdue for another declaration of Genocide or attempt at it by 2-3 years...

3) I say to thee 'Meh'. The mining operations happen in Silithus -before- Sylvanas learns that the Azerite is the blood of Azeroth. She had suspicions before that, but Magni confirms it in Chapter 12. That's 11 chapters after the Alliance started attacking the Horde miners in Silithus to steal the Lifesblood of Azeroth to use for their own purposes. And 9 chapters after the Horde retaliates against the Spies. 4 chapters later than Anduin learned it, I might add. When Magni went to Ironforge to ask the Alliance Priests to heal the world.

Oh... And Anduin still decides to use Azerite to build this thing months after he learned that Azerite is Azeroth's "Essence":



So... Y'know... Either it's not killing her to use it, or Anduin's willing to kill the planet to fight the Horde.