Does Blizzard still think personal loot should be forced in BFA for EVERYBODY?

[Deleted]

seriously learn to read the whole conversation from the start. I had been with the guild for over a year with no problems until they all of a suddenly decided to play favorites with some of the other officers because they began to befriend each other in real life. It annoyed me and i eventually left.

Learn to type then...
You said you stayed for a year and was still in it after your break.

Not my fault you cant even type down what you tried to say.

[Raelbo]

There is little basis that the "problem" will take any less time than it currently takes. CS only handles loot trades etc. if loot is actually ninja'd aka there has been clear instructions how loot is distributed (in case of boost runs etc) and it doesn't happen in such a way. Being in a guild instantly negates this and thus ML "ninjaing" aka not giving you loot is not a basis for loot trades and thus the player just gets pre-generated answer.

Any actual issues will remain to be so and won't take any less time than it currently does.

And yet Blizzard, who are the ones changing the system, have the actual data. You just have your opinion.

It takes the same amount of time as it currently does.

No it wouldn't. I already walked you through step by step why. But I guess ignorant hand waving away trump reason and logic

Without evidence of actual ninja, aka SS of conversations and loot rules, there no need to investigate any further. General pre-generated answer is enough in these cases.

This is just plain not true. While a SS may help you with a ticket, there is zero necessity for one and GMs will refer to actual logs even if you do present a SS (because, you know, a SS can be edited). A GM is not going to know whether the evidence exists or not until he/she has taken the time to examine those logs.

And currently the GM can copypaste the standard "Sorry player X, but you accepted the loot rules when you joined the guild/run and it is the guilds right to do with it as they deem fit. I know it's unfortunate for you but that is just the way it is. Have a nice day!

After having spent 20 minutes looking through the logs, compiling a report etc.

IF a player, who isn't going to be in the main progression, is in the raid then he can take loot away from the progress since not all loot can be traded. Thus he won't be taken into the raid at all.

Currently you can take non-main raiders or trials on farm bosses, funnel all the useful loot to main raiders that need them and give the extra to the rest (and they have a chance to coin as well).

So basically you're admitting that some guilds will abuse players as much as the system will allow them to. Worse yet you seem to think that they're entitled and justified in doing so. You just scored an own goal.

Literally some of the people who whined about not getting loot with ML will now whine that they won't even get into raids because of the chance that they'll get valuable loot over others.

Which will push them to leave the guild instead of hanging on in the vain hope that some day they'll be in the main raid team and get to benefit. Shitty guilds will no longer be able to string these suckers along for sole purpose of abusing their loot lockout. Oh noes /0\

The problem is that you'll end up wasting a lot of loot potential. You can get a 5 ilvl upgrade and not be able to trade it for a player who'd get 30 ilvl's. You might get 5 ilvl upgrade on a trinket thats actually a downgrade yet you can't trade it for players who find the trinket BiS.

Effectively this just translates into a lower % chance of upgrade for an individual when they're relying on sponging off other character's loot lockout for the week. Face it, the game is designed so that each character is supposed to have 1 loot lockout per boss per week. Split runs, loot funnelling these are simply loopholes that are being exploited by players to try and beat the system. In the end it's not healthy for the game, it's not healthy for players, it's not healthy for anything.

It also brings down questionable loot specs for bosses. In order to maximize possible weapon and trinket drops you'd always have to use a spec that gets the most of them (for trading purposes later on). As in a Balance druid would have loot spec as feral for a boss that drops only melee trinkets/weapons in order to have those items in their iventory for future drops to trade away.

And this is worse than ML where loot can drop that isn't applicable for anyone in the raid, and there is bugger all you can even do about it how?

Compared to 1 guy taking care of the loot vs going around the raid trading things, yes its alot mroe complicated and more time consuming. Not to even mention having to check whether a person can trade the loot or not (obviously not a problem for people that care about killing the bosses, aka the ones who don't support ML removal)

We've been using PL since WoD. The loot master calls out items, we all roll for it if we need it, the loot master declares who wins it. The person who has the loot is sufficiently competent to walk up to the winner and hand it over. It's not hard.

For vast majority of players the change doesn't even apply to. The change really focuses on organized guilds who want to clear instances asap, those are guilds that use split runs to further speed things up.

The objective of those guilds is not about saving time, it's about beating other guilds to the finish line. A casual guild that raids twice a week for 3 months to clear the instance is probably spending significantly less time than the world first guilds who play like 100 hours in a week and devote thousands of hour to preparation etc.

Whether it actually takes longer to clear instances with the change (due to lower average ilvl) is down to how Blizzard balances the instances.

And here we have the truth, spoken by your own word: PL/ML has no real effect on how long it takes guilds to clear instances.

And all of that is based on your assumptions. There have been no data regarding any of your arguments.

There is data. I have a first hand witness account. What's more is that it totally makes sense.

You'd have to be equally stubborn to not be able to recognise how this is going to have a significant negative impact.

You've decided you don't like the change, so you're trying to come up with heavily biased scenarios that feed your narrative. Sorry, but none of it is really convincing or sounds to me like you've tried to take a balanced view of things.

I personally have no horse in this proverbial race. I don't raid mythic, and our heroic guild already uses PL. I couldn't care less if you guys got to keep ML or not. So I really am an impartial observer who is sitting here, reading your arguments and thinking W.T.F?!?

It's like you've convinced yourself that this change is going to be terrible, and you'll be damned if you're going to allow it any possibility of proving otherwise. On principle. Because...reasons...

People who feel like they should get loot while they (in most cases) don't deserve them will be happy (if they find themselves in raids)

Lol. When you say things like "they don't deserve loot" it tells me all I need to know. Maybe try to stop being so entitled and stop obsessing about what other people deserve. Play the bloody game and if an "undeserving" raider isn't pulling his weight, then replace him. This idea that you get to dictate how many rewards everyone else should guess based on your own less than impartial judgement is not healthy. We're all Blizzard customers and everyone deserves to get a decent experience out the game. And while many guilds can be trusted to act in a fair and reasonable manner, it sounds to me like you're trying to defend those who can't.

I know its coming and I've accepted it just fine. Just because it's coming doens't mean its good or any of the negative aspects of it suddenly vanish.

With your logic whenver a change is coming we should just keep our mouths shut and "deal with it". In reality the reason for as stupid comment as that is the fact that you realized you can't actually counter the arguments made here but are unwilling to face the facts.

No, my comment is saying that if you've made a conscious decision to hate the change before you've even given it try, odds are that you're going to sabotage your own experience just to prove yourself right. In the end though you're only screwing yourself. Your arguments have done absolutely nothing to bring me round to seeing things your way (in fact they've done the exact opposite). But then again I suspect you're not trying convince me so much as you're trying to convince yourself.

I am not advocating that you don't question such a change. What I am advocating is that you keep an open mind (something of which I have seen zero evidence thus far).

[Checkt]

So no survey, not even a bogus one. If you actually had one you'd gladly provide the source.

are you actually dumb, or do you just pretend online?

[lappee]

And yet Blizzard, who are the ones changing the system, have the actual data. You just have your opinion.

Except we don't actually know whether they do have the data and if there is we don't know what that data shows.

No it wouldn't. I already walked you through step by step why. But I guess ignorant hand waving away trump reason and logic

And I walked you through, guess your only answer to is to "insult"

This is just plain not true. While a SS may help you with a ticket, there is zero necessity for one and GMs will refer to actual logs even if you do present a SS (because, you know, a SS can be edited). A GM is not going to know whether the evidence exists or not until he/she has taken the time to examine those logs.

SS is just a cause for investigation, don't provide it (or exact time and date of the convo) and they won't go through all the logs.

After having spent 20 minutes looking through the logs, compiling a report etc.

Nope, no need to do such thing since the loot rules are as clear as they are with PL.

So basically you're admitting that some guilds will abuse players as much as the system will allow them to. Worse yet you seem to think that they're entitled and justified in doing so. You just scored an own goal.

If you call that abuse then yes. For others its called climbing up the ladder and getting better while helping out the guild.

After all if you're there just to get loot, with your logic, you're abusing the guild. I guess you just forfeited the game there.

Which will push them to leave the guild instead of hanging on in the vain hope that some day they'll be in the main raid team and get to benefit. Shitty guilds will no longer be able to string these suckers along for sole purpose of abusing their loot lockout. Oh noes /0\

People won't be leaving the guild any more than they currently are with guilds "pushing them to leave the guild instead of raiding without loot".
Yeah, literally can't use that as an argument when it bites you in the ass.

Effectively this just translates into a lower % chance of upgrade for an individual when they're relying on sponging off other character's loot lockout for the week. Face it, the game is designed so that each character is supposed to have 1 loot lockout per boss per week. Split runs, loot funnelling these are simply loopholes that are being exploited by players to try and beat the system. In the end it's not healthy for the game, it's not healthy for players, it's not healthy for anything.

Effectively it actually just translates into lower effectiveness of loot for the guilds. With ML they wouldn't be relying on sponging off other characters loot, the guilds would use the loot effectively. RNG isn't effective in majority of the cases.

Split runs aren't loop holes or exploits of any kind. They're players using the system to their advantage as much as they can. People will advantageous systems with PL in place in order to get maximum effectiveness out of it.

Whether or not its "healthy" is irrelevant. If you actually want to make it healthy then you're just gonna loot lockout everything at whatever the highest possible level is (Account, IP, ID, you can go forever since people will find a way to overcome it)

And this is worse than ML where loot can drop that isn't applicable for anyone in the raid, and there is bugger all you can even do about it how?

Bring in people/characters that can use it, its very simple concept and something that can't be done with PL.

We've been using PL since WoD. The loot master calls out items, we all roll for it if we need it, the loot master declares who wins it. The person who has the loot is sufficiently competent to walk up to the winner and hand it over. It's not hard.

I never said it would be hard, I said its more complicated and time consuming than ML and thats a fact. You have the extra trade that is both more complicated and more time consuming than getting loot directly to inventory.
It really is beyond me how that could be unclear.

The objective of those guilds is not about saving time, it's about beating other guilds to the finish line. A casual guild that raids twice a week for 3 months to clear the instance is probably spending significantly less time than the world first guilds who play like 100 hours in a week and devote thousands of hour to preparation etc.

I never claimed they want to "save time", I said they want to clear the instance asap (As Soon As Possible, in case that wasn't clear). First clears usually take more raid hours than the ones that just raid once or twice a week but they do clear it faster.

Even majority of those casual guilds did one or two split runs and funneled the gear to their mains.

And here we have the truth, spoken by your own word: PL/ML has no real effect on how long it takes guilds to clear instances.

Is reading comprehension that hard for you? PL/ML has no real effect on how long it takes guilds to clear instances IF Blizzard balances it with the iLvl in mind.
We have no data on how its going to be since we haven't cleared any raid instances yet.

There is data. I have a first hand witness account. What's more is that it totally makes sense.

"And I have data of the opposite and everything that makes you wrong. I just won't share any of it with you"

Good work pal, using your logic you just lost the game pants down.

You've decided you don't like the change, so you're trying to come up with heavily biased scenarios that feed your narrative. Sorry, but none of it is really convincing or sounds to me like you've tried to take a balanced view of things.

I personally have no horse in this proverbial race. I don't raid mythic, and our heroic guild already uses PL. I couldn't care less if you guys got to keep ML or not. So I really am an impartial observer who is sitting here, reading your arguments and thinking W.T.F?!?

It's like you've convinced yourself that this change is going to be terrible, and you'll be damned if you're going to allow it any possibility of proving otherwise. On principle. Because...reasons...

I reviewed the change with no opinion of it, only to find it to have very few positive effects vs a shit ton of negative aspects to it. The facts speak for themselves and I listen to them, just because you don't personally like that doesn't mean I'm the one that has "decided" on things.

Lol. When you say things like "they don't deserve loot" it tells me all I need to know. Maybe try to stop being so entitled and stop obsessing about what other people deserve. Play the bloody game and if an "undeserving" raider isn't pulling his weight, then replace him. This idea that you get to dictate how many rewards everyone else should guess based on your own less than impartial judgement is not healthy. We're all Blizzard customers and everyone deserves to get a decent experience out the game. And while many guilds can be trusted to act in a fair and reasonable manner, it sounds to me like you're trying to defend those who can't.

Its a simple reward - effort structure. If you don't put in the required effort then you won't get the same reward either. It has nothing to do with entlitlement. It doesn't even take to count the fact that not all loot is equal to everyone which creates inconsistency in the base structure.

I've never been in a loot council or a GM dictating what people get. Guilds will start, as I said earlier, using only players that are good for the progression on farm bosses leaving the rest out (just as you "suggested" after I already told it to you).

All players are Blizzard customers, however that doesn't entitle you (look who talks about entitlement now) to getting all the rewards. Its really easy concept, do the work and you get the reward or are you next saying that everyone in every competition should get the same reward just because they attended? yeah, makes literally no sense.

No, my comment is saying that if you've made a conscious decision to hate the change before you've even given it try, odds are that you're going to sabotage your own experience just to prove yourself right. In the end though you're only screwing yourself. Your arguments have done absolutely nothing to bring me round to seeing things your way (in fact they've done the exact opposite). But then again I suspect you're not trying convince me so much as you're trying to convince yourself.

I am not advocating that you don't question such a change. What I am advocating is that you keep an open mind (something of which I have seen zero evidence thus far).

I've made a conscious decision based on the facts, yes. We know how PL works as it has been in the game for a long time, I've used it on many occasions and it works for PUG runs but it is just inferior system for guilds.

Obviously the facts haven't brought you around since you're the one who made up his mind a long time ago without the facts presented. Maybe you should actually list the positives and negatives to realize it yourself rather than just "oh its positive and I'm right" attitude.

I had open mind about it, thought it out in every angle possible and this is the end result, its simply bad overall.

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are you actually dumb, or do you just pretend online?

Nope, I asked you to provide proof for your claim on many occasions yet you didn't deliver.

Better think again who the "dumb" one is.

[Checkt]

Nope, I asked you to provide proof for your claim on many occasions yet you didn't deliver.

Better think again who the "dumb" one is.

Seeing as my 'claim' is actually a tag line from a popular TV show that you're continually trying to paint as a real reference to some actual data I'm going to stick with you as the dumb one, final answer. (and in case you're REALLY SLOW, 'final answer' doesn't actually mean that this is the last answer I'll ever give, it's actually a reference to another TV show.)

As for your request for real data, tho, there's only like 1500ish guilds with mythic argus kills....about 10k or so with any mythic progress at all, which represents a fraction of the population, which means LITERALLY the majority of people won't care\even notice.

Add this to the fact that these mythic guilds that apparently live and die by ML being available (hint: they don't) can LITERALLY still trade the gear someone gets from PL to another player and you have what amounts to a child (you) throwing a tantrum for no other reason that wanting to.


reality suuuuux sometimes bud.

[lappee]

Seeing as my 'claim' is actually a tag line from a popular TV show that you're continually trying to paint as a real reference to some actual data I'm going to stick with you as the dumb one, final answer. (and in case you're REALLY SLOW, 'final answer' doesn't actually mean that this is the last answer I'll ever give, it's actually a reference to another TV show.)

As for your request for real data, tho, there's only like 1500ish guilds with mythic argus kills....about 10k or so with any mythic progress at all, which represents a fraction of the population, which means LITERALLY the majority of people won't care\even notice.

Add this to the fact that these mythic guilds that apparently live and die by ML being available (hint: they don't) can LITERALLY still trade the gear someone gets from PL to another player and you have what amounts to a child (you) throwing a tantrum for no other reason that wanting to.


reality suuuuux sometimes bud.

So, as I said, no survey of any kind. You can reference random TV shows all you want, doesn't make your claim any less wrong.

Mythic raiders are a fraction of the population, nobody questioned it. He said that they make a considerable portion of streamers, people that are being followed among other stuff, all that is factual. You saying he is wrong just means that you're wrong.

Just like you are wrong about PL loot being tradeable as it's not if it's ilvl upgrade or azerite piece.

Yeah, reality sucks when you're wrong. I guess you're used to it though.

[Checkt]

So, as I said, no survey of any kind. You can reference random TV shows all you want, doesn't make your claim any less wrong.

Mythic raiders are a fraction of the population, nobody questioned it. He said that they make a considerable portion of streamers, people that are being followed among other stuff, all that is factual. You saying he is wrong just means that you're wrong.

Just like you are wrong about PL loot being tradeable as it's not if it's ilvl upgrade or azerite piece.

Yeah, reality sucks when you're wrong. I guess you're used to it though.

it's amazing that people as dumb as you exist. If anything you're a testament to the idea that us beating darwinism was a bad thing.

Streamers won't be going anywhere, because that's how they make money.

The 4 guilds that people actually pay attention to and/or are in the world first race will manage just fine.

Personal loot is absolutely tradeable, sans azerite gear, and the small percentage of time that azerite gear drops I'm certain that those players will manage.

It's a non-issue for a non-intellectual.....which explains why you're so upset by it.

[Mirishka]

I've never been an officer in a guild, so stop assuming. I've never had a problem with gear, and every guild I've been in so far ( I guild hopped a lot ), has been fair with loot besides that one time I won a mount roll but I didn't get it because I died early. I left that guild because the guild in general was toxic af and soon broke apart due to M Mammaroth.

A fantastic example of why personal loot > master loot.

[Deleted]

A fantastic example of why personal loot > master loot.

Yeah, surely the loot distribution model was toxic, not the people you should avoid ... "the guild in general was toxic af". Legit. Blame ML.

[Mirishka]

Yeah, surely the loot distribution model was toxic, not the people you should avoid ... "the guild in general was toxic af". Legit. Blame ML.

Its like you purposely tried to miss the point. When the game is full of shitty, toxic people who have proven that they will absolutely screw people out of gear/mounts/etc for years and years and years and years, maybe its time to take away their ability to do that.

Seriously, how was that not clear?

[Deleted]

Its like you purposely tried to miss the point. When the game is full of shitty, toxic people who have proven that they will absolutely screw people out of gear/mounts/etc for years and years and years and years, maybe its time to take away their ability to do that.

Seriously, how was that not clear?

Those situations are so uncommon that it doesn't really matter. I've done hundreds of PUG runs and only once or twice has the master looter been an issue.

[Deleted]

Its like you purposely tried to miss the point. When the game is full of shitty, toxic people who have proven that they will absolutely screw people out of gear/mounts/etc for years and years and years and years, maybe its time to take away their ability to do that.

Seriously, how was that not clear?

My own personal experience strongly opposes your own personal claim. That's 1 vs 1.
You have no numbers to back your claim - Blizz does, but doesn't share. So all you are left with is your personal own salt. Nothing worthy discussing with.

I've never had a problem with gear, and every guild I've been in so far ( I guild hopped a lot ), has been fair with loot besides that one time I won a mount roll but I didn't get it because I died early. I left that guild because the guild in general was toxic af and soon broke apart due to M Mammaroth.

Me missing the point. The irony is strong with you.

the game is full of shitty, toxic people who have proven that they will absolutely screw people out of gear/mounts/etc for years and years and years and years

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anecdotal

"In my singular experience playing this game that MILLIONS OF OTHER PEOPLE play, that rarely happens. Must not be a problem."

King of irony indeed.

[Mirishka]

Those situations are so uncommon that it doesn't really matter. I've done hundreds of PUG runs and only once or twice has the master looter been an issue.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anecdotal

"In my singular experience playing this game that MILLIONS OF OTHER PEOPLE play, that rarely happens. Must not be a problem."

[Deleted]

"In my singular experience playing this game that MILLIONS OF OTHER PEOPLE play, that rarely happens. Must not be a problem."

You just used anecdotal evidence yourself. My point is as valid as yours.

[Mirishka]

You just used anecdotal evidence yourself. My point is as valid as yours.

I'm half-black in RL, live in the U.S. and have never been shot by a police officer. I guess police brutality against minorities must not be a real problem after all.

/s
Infracted

[Ponky]

It's okay guys, let's look at it from the bright side. Sure it's going to suck for all the decent guilds for a while, but good players adapt rather quickly. Meanwhile all the loudmouths screaming "good, no more toxic loot masters, finally I can raid" will get slapped hard with their own rainbow walls of bullshit because they will never get invited to decent guilds anyway and all the wannabe heroic guilds with abusive leadership will choke on their own greediness because all the players that join them will just take loot and leave so in the end, good guilds will endure just like they always did and all the other crowd will just become worse from their own greediness.

[Deleted]

It's okay guys, let's look at it from the bright side. Sure it's going to suck for all the decent guilds for a while, but good players adapt rather quickly. Meanwhile all the loudmouths screaming "good, no more toxic loot masters, finally I can raid" will get slapped hard with their own rainbow walls of bullshit because they will never get invited to decent guilds anyway and all the wannabe heroic guilds with abusive leadership will choke on their own greediness because all the players that join them will just take loot and leave so in the end, good guilds will endure just like they always did and all the other crowd will just become worse from their own greediness.

Congratulations, you have reached the 7th, final, Stage of Grief, "Acceptance" !

[Jastall]

Bye. Take the grey, green, and blue heroes with you.

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That was more a reference to the 'fringe spec'. You've got a great chance of ranking higher when the pool of players is 10% the size and the players playing that spec are likely knowingly lowering your raid dps through stupidity.

That's a ridiculous way to look at it. Even in top guilds some people don't parse too well on first kills, due to sample size if nothing else, or the simple fact that progression kills tend to be messy and you value survival and mechanics over padding. That doesn't make them bad, and anyone with solid 99 or 100 parse for every boss can be nothing but good. The world isn't only made up of ''Method-tier'' and ''shit''.

And of course gear helps. Gear allows you to easily skip the 8th cone on Argus. Gear allows you to survive more mistakes on bosses like Aggramar or Kin'garoth. Gear allows you to compensate for the lower damage output of your lesser skilled raiders compared to top guilds. It is important to the progression of most Mythic guilds. We'll see how the PL change impacts this, but the intention is definitely to slow down gearing for individual players. And it's going to feel bad when a BiS trinket, weapon or Azerite armor for your spec is looted by someone else that can't trade it and won't use it.

[Mixxy]

And yes they are trying to fix bad guilds behavior who do boosts with an army of rerolls...

You know rerolled loot can't be traded, right? Like, at all?

Are you sure you raid?

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The primary reason Blizzard are moving entirely to personal loot system is that it reduces loot drama. Loot drama has historically been one of the biggest sources of GM tickets (how do I know this? My brother was a GM with them for 7 years).

The simple fact is that every time there is a ticket, not only does it require intervention by a GM which is a cost for Blizzard, but it is also indicative of a negative player experience. Even with GM intervention, loot complaints are seldom resolved to anyone's satisfaction. Blizzard have a policy of not enforcing any loot trade based on tickets because that would encourage people to chance their luck by ticketing GMs. What they will do, however, is take ill-gained loot away from the ninja.

So they're doing it in order to get away with doing less work... and they're telling us it's entirely for our benefit and we should be grateful.

I dunno man, you're not really selling it.

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[IMG]https://images2.imgbox.com/61/e7/pJa8kps3_o.gif[IMG]

I'm half-black in RL, live in the U.S. and have never been shot by a police officer. I guess police brutality against minorities must not be a real problem after all.

/s

Someone stole my loot once. Therefore, all people who use Master Looter are ninjas and thieves and the game will be better off without giving players the choice to use that system!

"Opponent of stupid", indeed.

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You know... I'm seeing people time and time again that this change is being made for the majority of the playerbase. The casuals who don't do hardcore progression, who don't do split raids or funnel gear.

That argument doesn't really hold water either, because Personal Loot is still the default gearing method. You have to manually change to Master Loot. These casual guilds are ACTIVELY deciding to use ML over PL. So even the casual players seem to want and prefer ML.

If the vast majority of players really preferred Personal Loot, wouldn't it be super easy to find a guild that uses it? On the other hand, if it's really that hard to find a guild that prefers Personal... doesn't that sort of imply that the majority of players actually DON'T prefer it?

[Mirishka]

You know rerolled loot can't be traded, right? Like, at all?

Are you sure you raid?

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So they're doing it in order to get away with doing less work... and they're telling us it's entirely for our benefit and we should be grateful.

I dunno man, you're not really selling it.

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Someone stole my loot once. Therefore, all people who use Master Looter are ninjas and thieves and the game will be better off without giving players the choice to use that system!

"Opponent of stupid", indeed.

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You know... I'm seeing people time and time again that this change is being made for the majority of the playerbase. The casuals who don't do hardcore progression, who don't do split raids or funnel gear.

That argument doesn't really hold water either, because Personal Loot is still the default gearing method. You have to manually change to Master Loot. These casual guilds are ACTIVELY deciding to use ML over PL. So even the casual players seem to want and prefer ML.

If the vast majority of players really preferred Personal Loot, wouldn't it be super easy to find a guild that uses it? If it's really that hard to find a guild that prefers Personal... doesn't that sort of imply that the majority of players actually DON'T prefer it?

That's cute and everything, but I never implied nor suggested that all people who use ML are thieves/etc. I've had plenty of positive raiding experiences where ML was done fairly and without incident. But too many people on this forum assume that their experience = everyone's experience. "I haven't seen a lot of stuff ninja'd, so it must not be a problem."

When in fact, part of the reason we've been given so many tools/options for things like loot was - per Blizzard's own admission - to allow for players to better "police themselves".

Loot drama has always been a part of this game - there were 'name and shame' topics on the official forums as far back as vanilla. It is what it is. Personal Loot isn't perfect far from it), but then, what loot system is? Group loot is still at the mercy of RNG where you might get 3 tokens no one needs, or a hunter that needs the tank trinket ('my pet needs STA too' lol), while ML slows the raid down (allocating the drops) and requires someone trustworthy/unbiased.

Also, I think Vashe9 mean rerolled toons, but I could be wrong.