Was Velcinda "Elsie" Benton the only loyal Desolate Councilor?

[Steampunkette]

So in the book Before the Storm Elsie Benton is standing on the Arathi Highlands field between Thoradin's Wall and Stromgarde Keep. Calia's hood has been thrown back and her face is revealed before Sylvanas orders the horn that signals the end of the event to be blown three times.

Parqual Fintallas, Jake Felstone, Jem Felstone, and Jack Felstone are all ambling along toward Stromgarde Keep with the intent to defect to the Alliance, and specifically Stormwind, the enemy of the Horde and the Forsaken.

But when Calia is speaking to Elsie Benton, before those three sharp notes sound the end of the event because Sylvanas thinks that some of the Desolates are defecting and wants to see who is loyal or not, Calia says to Elsie:

"Just—please. Come walk with me. Parqual, the Felstones, all the others—see them? They’re defecting. Anduin will shelter and protect you all; I know he will!”

All of them. All the others.

Did she mean to be general about all the others who were defecting, or did she mean the entire rest of the Desolate Council was defecting -except- for Elsie Benton?

If it's the former, then there is no change to the morality or pragmatism of the situation... But if it is the latter, if Elsie is the only member of the Desolate Council who was not defecting, do the moral implications of the situation change?

Defection among the Forsaken has always been punished with death. It's a fairly common punishment for defection even unto the modern world, much less the more barbaric times in our earlier history that would share more commonality of technology and trapping to the World of Warcraft. And, surely, the members of the Desolate Council knew that they were committing a crime if even Calia Menethil could see that they were defecting. A Crime punishable by death.

Thus it is an execution of traitors, one that Sylvanas has every right to do as the Sovereign Ruler of the Forsaken (Though one could certainly argue the moral implications of capital punishment). But we have held to the idea that Elsie was just one of the many Desolate Council Members who didn't defect. What if we were wrong? What if Elsie was the -only- one of the twelve Forsaken on the field who did not intend to defect?

Her death would still be a miscarriage of justice, certainly. But would it not be a far smaller one if 11 out of the 12 were defecting? Yes, some started running back to Thoradin's Wall. Some started to run back toward the Banners of the Dark Lady. But if Calia is to be believed and the other 11 -were- defecting, then Sylvanas was right to think that they were returning out of fear, rather than loyalty, and had still attempted to defect before being caught in the act and feigning loyalty to avoid the penalty of the crime they were committing...

But which is it? Was Calia speaking of the four that we know were traitors and some unspecified greater number? Or did she actually mean -everyone- but Elsie Benton?

What do ya'll think?

[Friendlyimmolation]

No idea,

Well the othe's that came back, at least 8 was it? Were all loyal.

Other than that, we didn't get any thoughts from any of them (we didn't even get a Horde prologue.) so it's all just guesses.

[Steampunkette]

No idea,

Well the othe's that came back, at least 8 was it? Were all loyal.

Other than that, we didn't get any thoughts from any of them (we didn't even get a Horde prologue.) so it's all just guesses.

We actually don't know how many turned and ran back. There were at least five who were running for Stromgarde Keep that Anduin describes. The Felstones and Parqual (Who we know to be defectors) and Tomas, who was running with his human friend Strang before the arrow struck him in the spine and pierced his heart.

Neither Calia nor Anduin describes any others dying beyond a general statement of carnage or whatever. So at -most- 7 tried to run back to the wall with Elsie being one of them. But there's no indication beyond Calia's statement how many were or were not loyal.

[Nevcairiel]

To me it feels more like Calia is referring to everyone that is already defecting, not literally everyone.

[Deleted]

Nathanos mentions to Sylvanas that not all are defecting, but they're still getting killed. So Velcinda likely isn't the only one loyal to Sylvanas.

[Aucald]

From my understanding of that portion of "Before the Storm," we're aware of the true intention of only two of the Desolate Council's members - Parqual Fintallas and Elsie/Velcinda Benton. Parqual was definitely planning on defecting and makes no bones of it when he introduces Elsie to Calia, and Elsie herself firmly declares her allegiance to Sylvanas and is horrified by the notion of defection despite her contention with some of Sylvanas' policies. We can assume that the Council members who returned early after being rejected by their living family, friends, or loved ones in Stormwind could be loyal, but it's never outright stated. The loyalty of the Felstone boys can also be called into question, but they don't outright declare their allegiances either - in the book it is stated that before dying to the Dark Rangers they only wanted to get their ailing and elderly mother of what was becoming a slaughtering ground (and so they may not have been truly defecting despite Calia's claims).

Sylvanas killed all but the ones who returned early (with hearts considered hardened against the living) because she felt she couldn't trust them - in her view if she allowed the fear (or the hope) to fester, it would only breed further weakness and division in the Forsaken people. So I would say that yes, Elsie/Velcinda is the only Desolate Council member *confirmed* to be unquestionably loyal - the others, we either don't know their full views on the matter or they were outright defectors.

[Dalheim]

ITT : Sylvanas fans are going to defend the murder of civilians in the name of bitch-queen

I was quite sad that Elsie got killed. I can understand the killing of the defectors, but the one running back towards the wall? Can't grasp that..

[Aucald]

Even if some of them were "betraying" sylvanas, they weren't combatants - they were just civilians - they wouldn't have harmed the Horde in anyway whatsoever by leaving - when you are risen you are given a choice and don't have to join the forsaken - so why could they not leave? They just wanted to be with their loved ones and Sylvanas murdered them for it - it's as simple as that. Anduin himself has said there can never be peace with Sylvanas as Warchief, and he is 100% correct

Technically the Desolate Council was the interim government of the Forsaken as Sylvanas was busy in Orgrimmar serving as Warchief - they were what replaced her due to the vacuum of power in the Undercity's internal hierarchy with her departure. This would make them a bit more than simple civilians, and if they turned "traitor" and lived to promulgate their views about the Forsaken's Banshee Queen it would prompt the rank and file of the Forsaken to perhaps ask more serious questions about their lot. This isn't meant to excuse Sylvanas' indiscriminate murder of the loyal and disloyal out of paranoia, only to show that the stakes as far as she was concerned were a bit higher than a bunch of random civilians leaving the Forsaken.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Even if some of them were "betraying" sylvanas, they weren't combatants - they were just civilians - they wouldn't have harmed the Horde in anyway whatsoever by leaving - when you are risen you are given a choice and don't have to join the forsaken - so why could they not leave? They just wanted to be with their loved ones and Sylvanas murdered them for it - it's as simple as that. Anduin himself has said there can never be peace with Sylvanas as Warchief, and he is 100% correct

Because Forsaken regardless of their roles couldn’t possibly have information that could help the Alliance, not to mention they were more than civilians, holding leadership positions in Sylvanas’s absence.
Good to see you as well failing to understand that free will doesn’t mean freedom from the consequences of betrayal or perceived betrayal.

Oh no, Sylvanas made Anduin sad? Well now she has to go!

[Powerogue]

They mentioned specifically that she shot at both the forsaken that ran for the keep and the ones that ran for her. Multiple, implying at least two were heading back towards Sylvanas.

It's those that surprised me. Like you said, the rest could have been thought of as cruel, but necessary execution of traitors. Killing Calia being that she made her choice to call for defection, marking her as a threat to the forsaken.

But the ones that ran back were murdered in cold, unflowing blood out of pure fear. Not that they were traitors, but at the paranoid possibility that they might eventually be.

While I still don't think the situation will go the way of Garrosh, she has made a critical misstep that will damage her relations with the forsaken. She is not their perfect, nigh-godlike queen. She makes mistakes. And maybe they were more right than they realized in forming their own governing body to act independently of her...

To sum it up: The Desolate Council will hear of this.

[AmbushIntheDark]

Technically the Desolate Council was the interim government of the Forsaken as Sylvanas was busy in Orgrimmar serving as Warchief - they were what replaced her due to the vacuum of power in the Undercity's internal hierarchy with her departure. This would make them a bit more than simple civilians, and if they turned "traitor" and lived to promulgate their views about the Forsaken's Banshee Queen it would prompt the rank and file of the Forsaken to perhaps ask more serious questions about their lot. This isn't meant to excuse Sylvanas' indiscriminate murder of the loyal and disloyal out of paranoia, only to show that the stakes as far as she was concerned were a bit higher than a bunch of random civilians leaving the Forsaken.

That type of critical thinking isnt taken kindly around here.

[Dalheim]

Even if some of them were "betraying" sylvanas, they weren't combatants - they were just civilians - they wouldn't have harmed the Horde in anyway whatsoever by leaving - when you are risen you are given a choice and don't have to join the forsaken - so why could they not leave? They just wanted to be with their loved ones and Sylvanas murdered them for it - it's as simple as that. Anduin himself has said there can never be peace with Sylvanas as Warchief, and he is 100% correct

I agree with you. I've never liked Sylvanas as Warchief and I want her gone.

[Dalheim]

Well, let's be honest it's not hard to predict where the story is going so I doubt she will be Warchief next expac

Hopefully. Doesn't matter if she steps down or dies to me, just begone silly elf!

[SoulSoBreezy]

What do ya'll think?

Thought about this earlier and I couldn't find this out:
We don't know how many of the council actually attended. We do know that only council members were asked to go but I didn't see anything about whether every council member had a living relative to meet up with in the first place (Elsie didn't but went anyway). So there's a chance that some of the council stayed home.

[Aucald]

But who's to say they were going to provide any information for Anduin? How could Sylvanas prove that? At the very least she could have incapacitated them and taken back to Undercity, she didn't have to kill them.

Who's to say they wouldn't? Sylvanas ultimately doesn't have to prove or disprove anything, save to herself. I agree she definitely overreacted, but the reaction as it were was hers to make.

I do see your point, obviously if they had divulged stuff to Anduin then that would have been a risk to the Horde, but Sylvanas shouldn't have just executed them.

Sylvanas' dismissal of the Desolate Council early on in "Before the Storm" indicates she doesn't respect them, and wants them gone. Even loyal, they served only as a baffle or filter between her and the Forsaken people - an abstraction that got in the way of the cult of personality style of leadership she previously enjoyed as far as they were concerned. The Gathering and the folly of Calia ultimately permitted Sylvanas to do which she wanted to do in her heart of hearts anyway: namely, purge the Forsaken of the "weakness" of human emotion and remove this obstacle in the way of her full power over them. It wasn't in Sylvanas' political best interest to keep the Desolate Council alive or in any semblance of power - even at their best they simply served as more keys to power that Sylvanas would have to deal with, and autocracies work best when the winning coalition is small in number and the selectorate is "everyone else" such as is the plight of the Forsaken.

[Super Dickmann]

We know that Sylvanas killed a staggering twelve people, the allegiance of five of which we're sure of - Elsie was loyal, Parqual and the Felstones were deserters. Given that they were deserters of high rank leaving under the aegis of a pretender to Sylvanas' throne during an ostensible peaceful meeting, her killing them is fairly understandable. They committed treason and that's punished harshly even in cases less clearly damning than this by states who have a lot more moral fortitude than a dictatorship like the Forsaken. Calia says all, but we know multiple people come back for Sylvanas to have shot as they were running. The absolute worst division is Sylvanas killing 4 traitors and 8 loyalists and at the time of the decision having every reason to believe everyone on the field was a traitor. Killing the loyalists is amoral and hasty from an out of universe view, but in story, her actions make sense and as a monarch, it would be an act of massive weakness to let them go.

P.S: The Desolate Council is defunct by the end of BtS. Twelve are dead, and the rest reintegrate into Forsaken society having been rejected by their loved ones.

[Powerogue]

P.S: The Desolate Council is defunct by the end of BtS. Twelve are dead, and the rest reintegrate into Forsaken society having been rejected by their loved ones.

And yet the power vacuum they existed to fulfill is not gone, and some did survive. They'll learn what happened there. While pessimistic towards rejoining their past families, it'd still matter to them that their friends were just executed by Sylvanas. Whether they would sympathize with Calia or blame her is yet to be seen but I wouldn't count them out just yet.

[Kithelle]

But who's to say they were going to provide any information for Anduin? How could Sylvanas prove that? At the very least she could have incapacitated them and taken back to Undercity, she didn't have to kill them.

- - - Updated - - -

I do see your point, obviously if they had divulged stuff to Anduin then that would have been a risk to the Horde, but Sylvanas shouldn't have just executed them.

- - - Updated - - -



I refer to my above comment. Stop being so salty.

- - - Updated - - -



Well, let's be honest it's not hard to predict where the story is going so I doubt she will be Warchief next expac

She could actively murder Horde children by the hundreds for no reason either other than bloodlust, and he'd still blindly defend her...best just ignoring him.

[Steampunkette]

Thought about this earlier and I couldn't find this out:
We don't know how many of the council actually attended. We do know that only council members were asked to go but I didn't see anything about whether every council member had a living relative to meet up with in the first place (Elsie didn't but went anyway). So there's a chance that some of the council stayed home.

All 22 attended. 10 went back to the wall. The other 12 have graves in Arathi. In Before the Storm it's noted that everyone had at least 1 person come to see them except for Elsie, and she took to the field anyhow.

As to the "Some ran back" argument: That's part of my original post.

Some of them did run back toward Thoradin's Wall, but was Calia right about them "All Defecting" and Sylvanas right about the ones who ran back to her being disloyal but fearful of the punishment?

And we know that Parqual Fintallas and the three Felstones started heading for the wall -before- the horn blew. Parqual never said "I'm Defecting!" to anyone, either.

We also know that Tomas, Parqual, and the three Felstones were all running toward Stromgarde when they were killed. At least 5 out of the 12 were defectors, and at least 1 out of the 12 was loyal. Were the other 6 -actually- loyal, as we'd previously surmised..? Or was Calia right that they were all defectors and the ones who ran back were just scared of being killed if they got caught (Which is the hope Sylvanas couldn't let fester)?

[Aucald]

All 22 attended. 10 went back to the wall. The other 12 have graves in Arathi. In Before the Storm it's noted that everyone had at least 1 person come to see them except for Elsie, and she took to the field anyhow.

As to the "Some ran back" argument: That's part of my original post.

Some of them did run back toward Thoradin's Wall, but was Calia right about them "All Defecting" and Sylvanas right about the ones who ran back to her being disloyal but fearful of the punishment?

And we know that Parqual Fintallas and the three Felstones started heading for the wall -before- the horn blew. Parqual never said "I'm Defecting!" to anyone, either.

We also know that Tomas, Parqual, and the three Felstones were all running toward Stromgarde when they were killed. At least 5 out of the 12 were defectors, and at least 1 out of the 12 was loyal. Were the other 6 -actually- loyal, as we'd previously surmised..? Or was Calia right that they were all defectors and the ones who ran back were just scared of being killed if they got caught (Which is the hope Sylvanas couldn't let fester)?

Parqual Fintellas and Philia (his living daughter) sought out Calia when Parqual told Philia that he doubted they would be able to meet again in her lifetime - he then beseeched Calia (for Philia's sake) to aid them in making it the Alliance said of the grounds, which is pretty much as close as any of the Desolate Council get to declaring that they plan to defect.

Tomas and the three Felstone men were also moving toward the Alliance side of the grounds, but they never specifically stated an intention to defect (indirect or direct). The Felstones were just trying to get their living mother to safety, and may have returned to the Forsaken encampment once she was safe, and Tomas was was trying to help his old friend Osric off the field as well - and while moving to the Alliance side may or may not have been defecting.