Is the attack on teldrassil really that unjustified?

[Aucald]

Except Velcinda and Parqual would fall under the category of "some of the Council". Not the entirety of the Council as the start of your post indicates. Nathanos clearly stated it's not a universal belief among them. And, again, so what that they were against that plan? Sylvanas holds more sway among the Forsaken. If it came down to popular vote after Sylvanas told her story of how Alliance fucked her over and ruined her grand gift to the Forsaken, more would side with her than with Elsie or Parqual.

The Council, the ones whose personalities we see aside from Velcinda and Parqual, seem to be in rough agreement - in fact, the entire Council itself was created largely by Velcinda and her tending to the day-to-day maintenance of the Forsaken populace as an apothecary. Nathanos is trying to mollify his queen, and while he's technically correct in that they're all not in lock-step with one another (obviously), he's still understating the current that represents soft opposition to Sylvanas' goals for the Forsaken. I've no doubt Sylvanas was still secure in her position, and could've overrode the Council with clever politicking, but she wasn't really in a position to do that due to the needs of the greater Horde as well as her own plans being set into motion.

And since I kinda doubt Genn and Rogers would include a "we completely ruined the long-term survival of your very race, whoopsie" in their apology, the Forsaken learning that from Sylvanas after the apology would only make it look like disingenuous horseshit. Which such a reply from Genn and Rogers would obviously have been in the first place, given their attitude towards the Horde.

No, it would've been more "we acted without direct sanction from the High King, and our actions neither represent the position of the Alliance nor should be construed as Alliance policy toward the Forsaken or Sylvanas." Which, both literally and figuratively, is actually true of the Alliance position at the time, as you yourself have been at pains to establish elsewhere.

How many of those Kor'kron did he have? Eight? Besides, what does Garrosh's thoughts matter here, exactly? Garrosh was a walking disaster when it comes to his leadership. His thoughts on the Horde and what best represented it aren't exactly some grand authority here.

Unknown, but I would imagine it would be more than eight considering the numbers of Quillboar he knew he was going up against. I would assume a hefty battalion of them, at the least. Garrosh's thoughts don't matter - I just wanted to draw up a parallel between an Alliance near-defeat in the fact of an otherwise underestimated enemy (the Gnolls) and the same scenario for the Horde. If a similar thing can happen to the mighty and often-victorious Horde army, then it should be understandable for the Alliance as well.

And no, I don't see the parallel between a tiny group of Orcs taking on a much larger group of Quillboars, including previously unseen (and as such ones that did not factor into their decision to charge in in the first place) super Quillboars and a supposed global superpower getting almost obliterated by the Azerothian equivalent of Kosovo less than a century ago.

See above.

You focused on Gnolls not existing and the gist of the problem passed you by. Replace Gnolls, Trolls and Orcs with Lesotho, East Timor and North Korea if you will. The point is, US grew and expanded without a direct threat against their territory, let alone a war that almost obliterated them. Especially war against globally insignificant nations (at least in military terms). Stormwind got nearly flattened. Three times. When you have to recuperate from three cases of near-destruction, you don't have much resources or manpower grow and expand into a superpower. Just like with Garrosh and the Quillboars you're comparing apples to grasshoppers.

Sorry, that was meant as a humorous aside, not the substance of the riposte. America in the early 20th century didn't do much in the way of growing (similar to Stormwind prior to the Gnoll Wars) - we were still establishing ties, and mostly staying out of global conflicts due to our rough starts with the War of 1812, the Civil War, Spanish–American War, and the various smaller conflicts interspersed throughout the 19th century. World War I and II were what really kickstarted our industry, especially in the fields of defense and military technology. Similar to Stormwind (and probably the history on which Stormwind is loosely based), the Gnoll War lit the fire of expansionism in the previously small kingdom, bringing it new territory and new size, and of course into new conflicts. I mean, America nearly tore itself apart in its early days, without the aid of an external force beating down its doors. Obviously it (like Stormwind) recuperated and went on to thrive just fine.

I'm pretty sure it's a direct quote from Chronicle, but whatever. Just like it talked about the city being "on the verge of collapse". The Trolls also already scaled the walls and killed the king in his "desperate charge". But that also doesn't matter. Obviously desperate charges are common occurrence when you're not getting your ass handed to you. Because nothing screams "we're totally in control of this fight" like desperation.

Point out the word "defeat" in what you quoted. Also, what Stormwind victory over the Gurrubashi? Is Medivh Stormwind now? How did he become a nation? And when? Anyway, since you're arguing against your fantasies now, I'm not going to answer to the rest.

Except for this. I have no clue where you're getting the idea Stormwind gained large swathes of land after the Gurrubashi land. Just the opposite. Chronicle says they expanded before the war, got too close to the borders of the Trolls in the process and that is what made the Trolls target them.

The Gnoll Wars were a close thing for Stormwind, no doubt about that - but regardless, they faced down the threat and were victorious. They won the battle, and in so doing they went on to claim new territories and grow as a nation.

Specifically:

"The final provocation came when Prince Llane Wrynn personally led a small party to strike at the Gurubashi leadership in central Stranglethorn, which succeeded in uniting the trolls against Stormwind. Though costly and close-run, the human kingdom eventually emerged victorious, largely due to the intervention of the Guardian Medivh.

With the entire troll army completely destroyed or routed at the gates of Stormwind City, the jungle trolls of the south would never succeed in threatening the kingdom again. The war's conclusion also marked the beginning of nearly two decades of relative peace for Stormwind, to be eventually interrupted by the onset of the First War against the Orcish Horde."

Stormwind spent those days of peace before the First War strengthening their nation and growing outward, which is what they had been previously doing.

[Kwento]

Oh, right. I'm sure there's literally ZERO base behind it, right? They're all just collectively telling the same lie, right?

What..? No, some offered plenty of constructive criticism, while others overdid it so much that their aftertaste still lingers in every post about how horrible it is to play the only faction in a main storyline and not its amazing sidekick.

[Zulkhan]

I'm not sure if anyone can call it "justified" but compared to Garrosh's plans, that were more or less lost causes from the very start, Sylvanas' plan could have actually worked if whatever mess that turned Teldrassil into a barbecue didn't occur.

Garrosh's plan with the Night Elves was simply "ravage their lands, kick them out of Kalimdor and take the whole continent while the Alliance handles the exodus coming on the Eastern Kingdoms" and that was pretty bad, since it just utterly ignored the blatant possibility of the Alliance retaliating and hunting the Horde down in search of retribution. In other words, typical of Garrosh, he didn't give a shit about consequences.

On the other hand, Sylvanas' plan was something like "invade their lands, remove their leadership and claim their capital". While it doesn't entirely rule out the possibility of retaliation, holding Teldrassil as "hostage" would have forced the Alliance to be very careful with whatever course of action they intended to follow. Needless to say though, whatever ill-fated inconvenience occuring during the attack completely ruins such plan and triggers the exact kind of angry retaliation meant to be avoided.

[Feanoro]

Oh, right. I'm sure there's literally ZERO base behind it, right? They're all just collectively telling the same lie, right?

Yes, this is what some of the more enthusiastic Horde zealots actually write on this forum and this very thread. They ignore their content being developed first, their stories being canon in any conflict, developers openly declaring their enthusiasm/preference for the Horde, their fans screaming and physically attacking Alliance players at Blizzcon, and paid entertainers at Blizzcon screaming obscenities at Alliance players, and Blizzard having to be shamed into grudgingly admitting there's no place for that crap. No, anyone who says Horde bias is a filthy liar, just ask them.

[Jastall]

I'm sorry, did I stutter? I said the 7th Legion forces were obliterated, not the Worgen. Or were the 7th Legion forces there Worgen now? Even though Worgen joined the Alliance moments earlier? And Worgen may have remained Forsaken's enemies forever more, but they were them outside of their home. Because they had to abandon it. Which was my point. And Worgen only reclaim it after Sylvanas withdraws from Lordaeron after she turned it into a trap for Alliance to die in it. Glorious race, those Worgen.

They had to abandon it because it was blighted and overrun, not because of Liam's death demoralizing them which is the entire point of Sylvanas wanting Malf dead. The NEs lands also aren't Gilneas, they have countless fallback points after Teldrassil falls and they keep fighting in earnest as the war table ops show.

Besides, while taking Teldrassil's population hostage would have been an effective strategy, I fail to see how the Horde could possibly capture it in a timely fashion even without accounting for the burning. Their campaign already faced some setbacks, and they're not facing some lightly defended town or tribe of Fulborgs this time, but a capital city above a giant tree, defended by Ancients and such. Merely gaining access would be difficult as the NEs can presumably close the portal, forcing some kind of aerial operation that seems incredibly risky to me. Perhaps Oculeth's telemancy could bypass this difficulty but he's nowhere to be found so it seems doubtful that was the plan.

[Doffen]

I was trying to show you how your position was contradictory, but apparently that flew over your head. I'll go step by step this time.

Your claim is that Blizzard have confirmed that the canonical story order is Azsuna happening before Stormheim in the release version and that the Alliance of Azsuna version is canon. This must be your claim as it's that of the guy you're defending.

The video you link to prove this says that their original intent was to have a leveling order from Azsuna into Stormheim, but that they gave up on this late into development. They later say that any order works well now for leveling. They say exactly nothing about story or the Alliance. We're talking about something that didn't make it into live and doesn't relate to story at all. We can now adopt one of two positions.

1. Story and leveling order is the same. In this case, when they changed the leveling order into making any combination applicable, they also allowed any story to be applicable. This means you're wrong, since the release version doesn't have a canonical order that Blizzard have announced.

2. Story and leveling order are different. They never mention story order in the video. Therefore the video is useless as proof of your claim, since it only discusses leveling and says nothing about story. Everything from that point on is you inferring something out of the devs saying nothing.

Whichever position we take, neither gets us to the point where the Alliance version is canonical, therefore even if we ignore the issues with the above, your source is still useless as proof of the initial claim.

No no, I am sorry if I were bombastic about it earlier. But both your examples can't both make me wrong. I thought you were contradicting yourself, because you said two different things, and tried to sell both as true, when those examples are different.

That video showed that they had an intended LEVELING purpose for the zone, wich started with Azsuna. And then you said that they said nothing about the story, wich I also agreed on, because that wasn't what the video was about. It was about they made Aszuna the starter zone then around the Broken Isle wich ended with Stormheim. The only change scaling did was that you could start with whatever zone you wanted, but that was implemented late into the development.

So they either changed the story to go with the scaling, or they did not, so the story stayed the same. My stance is that they did not, seeing how other quests etc agrees with my opinion if that's easier to swallow. Whether I am wrong about the actual lore is everyones guess. You saying I am wrong does not make it true. It's like 50/50 here.

You are wrong about my initial claim though. You were the one that said the other user took it out of her/his ass. This video claimed otherwise. Like I said very early on, what's canon or not is not a discussion I want to take again(already had that with nostradamus months back) because we never agree on that. And if you see these forums, no one really agrees what's correct about this.

[Super Dickmann]

That video showed that they had an intended LEVELING purpose for the zone, wich started with Azsuna. And then you said that they said nothing about the story, wich I also agreed on, because that wasn't what the video was about. It was about they made Aszuna the starter zone then around the Broken Isle wich ended with Stormheim. The only change scaling did was that you could start with whatever zone you wanted, but that was implemented late into the development.

So they either changed the story to go with the scaling, or they did not, so the story stayed the same. My stance is that they did not, seeing how other quests etc agrees with my opinion if that's easier to swallow. Whether I am wrong about the actual lore is everyones guess. You saying I am wrong does not make it true. It's like 50/50 here.

You are wrong about my initial claim though. You were the one that said the other user took it out of her/his ass. This video claimed otherwise. Like I said very early on, what's canon or not is not a discussion I want to take again(already had that with nostradamus months back) because we never agree on that. And if you see these forums, no one really agrees what's correct about this.

The bolded part is the key here. We agree that the video doesn't talk about the story. But you believe you can infer something about the story from it because of the original intent of leveling, whereas I do not. Neither of us have backing on the basis of the video, which is why I said it's bad evidence, since it doesn't support your point even in the best case scenario. We can discuss from there what the logical order is, but this video won't be the answer, given some of the inconsistencies we've already gone over.

I said he took it out of his ass because like I've said before, @Tabrotar's claim is in fact composed of two parts. The first is that the canonical story order is Azsuna to Stormheim, which the video may support assuming your interpretation, but which even you admit is a 50/50 thing. The second is that the Alliance version is canon, because if it isn't, Genn is ignorant and he is attacking because he wants to, not because of foreknowledge. The video doesn't address canon at all, therefore it's irrelevant to his claim, which remains wrong and unfounded.

[Zulkhan]

Oh, right. I'm sure there's literally ZERO base behind it, right? They're all just collectively telling the same lie, right?

Possibly? I mean, I've seen even more of this eternally victimized behavior coming from countless supporters of the same football team hating on another. Do not make it sound like something impossible or absurd because it is not. On the contrary, let a community repeat the same lie altogether and they'll surely start to believe it is the truth.

[Minikin]

........Wait what??

What????????

The Horde's ENTIRE MODUS OPERANDI has been "we are outcasts and victims" from day. fucking. one. What kinda good ass shit weed are you smoking?

Lol I did actually forget the most emo quote ever.

"This world don't give us nothing, <name>. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

Twas a warchief that said that XD

[Doffen]

The bolded part is the key here. We agree that the video doesn't talk about the story. But you believe you can infer something about the story from it because of the original intent of leveling, whereas I do not. Neither of us have backing on the basis of the video, which is why I said it's bad evidence, since it doesn't support your point even in the best case scenario. We can discuss from there what the logical order is, but this video won't be the answer, given some of the inconsistencies we've already gone over.

I said he took it out of his ass because like I've said before, @Tabrotar's claim is in fact two claims. The first is that the canonical story order is Azsuna to Stormheim, which the video may support assuming your interpretation, which even you admit is a 50/50 thing. The second is that the Alliance version is canon, because if it isn't, Genn is ignorant and he is attacking because he wants to, not because of foreknowledge. The video doesn't address canon at all, therefore it's irrelevant to his claim, which remains wrong and unfounded.

No, I believe the canonical story is Azsuna first. Which they actually said in the video, which they then implemented scaling. That's what I take from it. Sorry if that came out unclear. Meant more the actual quest with Genn and the intel. Since it got two different endings, we don't know for sure what's correct. That the intent was for us to go to Azsuna first in Legion is for me pretty clear(but hey I might be a lunatic)

But yeah, I get you, I see what you mean. Sure the video doesn't show that much, but it's something about it, where we got little info from other sources. It's not enough perhaps, but my initial response was that if the other user got the info somewhere, the video was probably it.

If I were an ass about it earlier, I am sorry. I read what you wrote as two different thing, which I took as contradictory, but I see what you mean now.

[Wyrt]

Blizzard is hell bent on making sure that Alliance aggression in Stormheim and Silithus don't count because Sylvanas was a naughty girl in Stormheim and deserved Genn spanking her and no one gives a shit about goblins.

[frogger237]

Which is kinda the opposite of what you said.


How does that address what I said? You argued that Sylvanas would only resurrect specific heroes rather than all of them, making things easier for the Void Lords. But who exactly is resurrecting every hero as it is? How would Sylvanas resurrecting at least some of them be a decrease compared to pretty much nothing sans Odyn resurrecting Vrykul (which he'd be able to continue to do even without Eyir)?

No its not the opposite of what I said, she believes all life is a threat to her which means that in order for her to get what she wants all life needs to die.

Lorewise our adventurers keep getting rezed by the spirit healers which are Valkyr. Also since all undead aren't mind controlled eventually factions of undead would rise up against Sylvanas meaning even less beings to defend Azeroth when the inevitable wars break out.

[Super Dickmann]

No, I believe the canonical story is Azsuna first. Which they actually said in the video, which they then implemented scaling. That's what I take from it. Sorry if that came out unclear. Meant more the actual quest with Genn and the intel. Since it got two different endings, we don't know for sure what's correct. That the intent was for us to go to Azsuna first in Legion is for me pretty clear(but hey I might be a lunatic)

But yeah, I get you, I see what you mean. Sure the video doesn't show that much, but it's something about it, where we got little info from other sources. It's not enough perhaps, but my initial response was that if the other user got the info somewhere, the video was probably it.

If I were an ass about it earlier, I am sorry. I read what you wrote as two different thing, which I took as contradictory, but I see what you mean now.

If I had to give my guess, I'd say that the quest is a relic of an earlier version back when the zones were sequential, but it's one of the things that simply don't fit because the chronology is not fixed now. Not just because you can do them in any order now, so you can do Stormheim before Azsuna, but because no matter which version you go with, things don't quite work out.

The crashing ship was part of the fleet, but it was attacked at sea, which is never mentioned by the Horde. You just set sail from Orgrimmar. Whereas for the Alliance version, if it's meant to be a lead up, it's a terrible one, since it's never brought up throughout the entirety of the Stormheim questing. This makes me think there were story changes involved, which is why I disagree with you that the version we see is what the original view was. Even minor dialogue changes would have made a big difference.

And no worries, these are internet forums, a bit of dickery is par for the course.

[Feanoro]

Sylvanas was a naughty girl in Stormheim and deserved Genn spanking her

The Sylvie fans will be right back, they need to go... er, consult some sources! Yeah, that's it!

[Doffen]

If I had to give my guess, I'd say that the quest is a relic of an earlier version back when the zones were sequential, but it's one of the things that simply don't fit because the chronology is not fixed now. Not just because you can do them in any order now, so you can do Stormheim before Azsuna, but because no matter which version you go with, things don't quite work out.

The crashing ship was part of the fleet, but it was attacked at sea, which is never mentioned by the Horde. You just set sail from Orgrimmar. Whereas for the Alliance version, if it's meant to be a lead up, it's a terrible one, since it's never brought up throughout the entirety of the Stormheim questing. This makes me think there were story changes involved, which is why I disagree with you that the version we see is what the original view was. Even minor dialogue changes would have made a big difference.

And no worries, these are internet forums, a bit of dickery is par for the course.

Yeah, it's a nice explanation that if it is the case. And that is why I even agree with Mehrunes on the parts that happens in Stormheim. It seems a bit weird that they got no clue whatsoever, but when you start the Alliance scenario they have a pretty clear indication on Sylvanas is up to no good. It changes like that. So yeah, make sense that. Maybe I am wrong

[Jastall]

If I had to give my guess, I'd say that the quest is a relic of an earlier version back when the zones were sequential, but it's one of the things that simply don't fit because the chronology is not fixed now. Not just because you can do them in any order now, so you can do Stormheim before Azsuna, but because no matter which version you go with, things don't quite work out.

The crashing ship was part of the fleet, but it was attacked at sea, which is never mentioned by the Horde. You just set sail from Orgrimmar. Whereas for the Alliance version, if it's meant to be a lead up, it's a terrible one, since it's never brought up throughout the entirety of the Stormheim questing. This makes me think there were story changes involved, which is why I disagree with you that the version we see is what the original view was. Even minor dialogue changes would have made a big difference.

And no worries, these are internet forums, a bit of dickery is par for the course.

Personally I find it makes the most sense if the Alliance finds the book in Azsuna first, since that would be their piece of intel and what motivates them to launch the expedition in the first place. In the middle of a the biggest Legion invasion ever, sending an airship and its crew, a faction leader included, against Sylvanas only starts to make sense if you at least have some evidence that there's trouble afoot rather than merely a gut feeling.

Also the fact that almost all profession quests send you there first to me indicates, or at least implies rather strongly, that Azsuna was indeed the first zone in the expansion before they introduced scaling. Wouldn't be surprised had the order been clockwise from there.

[Super Dickmann]

Personally I find it makes the most sense if the Alliance finds the book in Azsuna first, since that would be their piece of intel and what motivates them to launch the expedition in the first place. In the middle of a the biggest Legion invasion ever, sending an airship and its crew, a faction leader included, against Sylvanas only starts to make sense if you at least have some evidence that there's trouble afoot rather than merely a gut feeling.

Also the fact that almost all profession quests send you there first to me indicates, or at least implies rather strongly, that Azsuna was indeed the first zone in the expansion before they introduced scaling. Wouldn't be surprised had the order been clockwise from there.

The original order was Azsuna to Stormheim and clockwise from there yeah, the video does say this. But I'm dubious as to how many changes were made from that original concept to the first testable version, then live, as I explained in that post you quoted.

As for the Alliance version being canon, I strongly disagree and I've already given my reasoning for that. There's the fact that neither Genn, nor Rogers nor Anduin ever brings the intel up as the fleet is sent and clearly state that their personal animus and Sylvanas being 'his prey' are his reasons for the attack. There's also that he doesn't even know the tiny information that's in the book by the time he goes to Skold-Ashil and directly says, as Mehrunes already linked, that he has no idea what Sylvanas is doing there up until he familiarizes himself at the very end. If any version is canon, the Horde one where the information is shredded and the Alliance is ignorant better gels with their later conduct. You have to remember that during that time, the Alliance intel agency was run by a dreadlord.

[rogueMatthias]

Blizzard are trying so hard to make Alliance the good guys and Sylvanas the bad guy that It's unfathomable to see how anyone can think this is all justified or both sides are "shades of grey", unless they're roleplaying on here.

Sylvanas is the villain - transparently so. There's no need go get defensive on this, it really annoys me on Alliance too how black and white this is all becoming. Anduin is such a peaceloving hippy that any aggression from the Horde is unjustified. (People keep bringing it back to the Goblin miners again, but they were literally only there to dig up materials to build WOMDs to use on the Alliance. That makes them a military target.)

Here's what they could have done to solve this whole thing -

An assassination attempt on Anduin.

Imagine it. Nobody knows who did it. Baine hears about it from his communication with Anduin and accuses Sylvanas. She denies it was her and is sure it was Genn - and knows that with a Greymane led Alliance he'll be out for the Hordes blood. Pursuing peace with Anduin would leave her and the Horde completely vulnerable if something were to happen to him. Instead she needs to get ready and prepare for the worst.

You could eventually reveal the assassin to be another twilight cultist or something dumb, but it would allow for Sylvanas actions to be somewhat more reasonable.

[ombramo]

that shit is way too close to org, get it the fuck out

[Jastall]

The original order was Azsuna to Stormheim and clockwise from there yeah, the video does say this. But I'm dubious as to how many changes were made from that original concept to the first testable version, then live, as I explained in that post you quoted.

As for the Alliance version being canon, I strongly disagree and I've already given my reasoning for that. There's the fact that neither Genn, nor Rogers nor Anduin ever brings the intel up as the fleet is sent and clearly state that their personal animus and Sylvanas being 'his prey' are his reasons for the attack. There's also that he doesn't even know the tiny information that's in the book by the time he goes to Skold-Ashil and directly says, as Mehrunes already linked, that he has no idea what Sylvanas is doing there up until he familiarizes himself at the very end. If any version is canon, the Horde one where the information is shredded and the Alliance is ignorant better gels with their later conduct. You have to remember that during that time, the Alliance intel agency was run by a dreadlord.

The fleet is sent with Anduin's consent and blessing, however. It seems weird to me that he would authorize such a mission based solely on Genn's feelings. To me it makes more sense that they used the intel to convince him something was up, and they didn't mention it because why bother, they're talking between themselves. It is however true that SI:7 was run by a Dreadlord. Him encouraging the expedition (maybe with false/exaggerated reports) in order to divide and conquer does make perfect sense.

That said, ultimately I think the discussion is a bit moot, since no amount of evidence available to the Alliance at the time makes the attack on the Forsaken fleet justifiable in my eyes. Not during a Legion invasion. Then again I also hold a grief against Sylvanas for going on such a sidequest during said invasion. So while Genn was the stupider of the two, she's not off the hook.