Remember "it'll be released when it's finished" and the term "blizzard ppolish"?

[Nurasu]

Right - and that's probably fair, but like you say - they could change it easily. Has nothing to do with hurried or polished. They're choosing it to be that way for now for better or worse.

I would definitely argue against "never ever" seeing a worse spec though

Agreed - everything else I've seen on beta seems fine to me; it's Legion 2.0, but I was happy with Legion for the most part. There are just some questionable class design decisions still at the 11th hour that have me scratching my head. I don't think it has to do with their timeframe.

[MrHappy]

Check profile -> add to ignore list. It is really helpful, perma bans are definitely too rare thing here and without 10-20 most annoying trolls and whiners this forum is pretty good. Although sometimes you'll see "blank" pages in some threads ;D.

Thanks! In all my years of MMO-C i never knew that existed......this will become a much nicer place for me!

[Leodok]

Wanna know a secret? 2 months before Legion, they would probably have said the same "any further changes will have to be left for 7.1."
2 months before WoD, same thing, just with "6.1" instead.
Same for MoP with "5.1."
Cata with "4.1."
And the rest.

[beelgers]

Wanna know a secret? 2 months before Legion, they would probably have said the same "any further changes will have to be left for 7.1."
2 months before WoD, same thing, just with "6.1" instead.
Same for MoP with "5.1."
Cata with "4.1."
And the rest.

Exactly. It is basically the same as always for major changes. You have to stop somewhere. Blizzard just made the mistake of saying it out loud when they should have known there would be a crazy response.

[Wvvtayy]

Wanna know a secret? 2 months before Legion, they would probably have said the same "any further changes will have to be left for 7.1."
2 months before WoD, same thing, just with "6.1" instead.
Same for MoP with "5.1."
Cata with "4.1."
And the rest.

Oh, okay, I had no idea you worked for Blizzard and know what they would have said about the first patch prior to a new expansion released. Thank you so much for your insight in to the inner workings of their dev team.

[beelgers]

Oh, okay, I had no idea you worked for Blizzard and know what they would have said about the first patch prior to a new expansion released. Thank you so much for your insight in to the inner workings of their dev team.

His point was that they generally do stop *major* class changes toward the end of a beta (or any patch really), and then wait for the next major patch to overhaul anything needed. His statement was factual. Plus he said "probably". Didn't say "this is the exact words they would have used in 2008" or something heh. I don't see the issue or really understand the dramatic response of yours.

[KainneAbsolute]

I cant talk about warcraft 1 or 2. For the other games, my opinion is "when is finished" never happened. Diablo II had several problems and the backlash was big (for those times), item duping, etc.. With patches it improved a lot until it become the game we all loved it. In Starcraft, it happened the same. Anyone remember how you can convert hatcheries into mutas? and other bugs? WoW Vainilla was indeed not finished when it launched.

Blizzard, however did a better job than other companies.

I think players and communities become more demanding with time. Not just quality but also faster updates.

[Wvvtayy]

His point was that they generally do stop *major* class changes toward the end of a beta (or any patch really), and then wait for the next major patch to overhaul anything needed. His statement was factual. Plus he said "probably". Didn't say "this is the exact words they would have used in 2008" or something heh. I don't see the issue or really understand the dramatic response of yours.

Well, the difference between this time and every other expansion is, no other expansion was rushed out with a big time crunch like this one.

[WowIsDead64]

My God how things have changed. Blizzard built a reputation on not releasing things until they're actually finished and to never rush anything. Hell, remember when they spent years working on Titan, then ended up scrapping the whole project just because it wasn't up to their standards? That wasn't that long ago. But now look, the devs are straight up admitting they didn't have enough time and the company forced them to rush the release, causing them to release an unfinished expansion that we'll have to deal with for months or longer, depending on if they actually get their shit together by 8.1 and fix the countless broken specs.

And before some smart-ass says "how do u kno dat da game is gonna b bad it isnt out yet!!!" , because somebody always does, remember that beta is a thing and most of us can see for ourselves how rushed and unfinished it is.

And no, I'm not saying I wanted another 14 month raid tier like SoO and HFC. But antorus has only been out 8 months. If they pushed the release back to early October or late September things would have probably been fine.

That's, what is called "margin of strength". I.e. in a past Blizzard had enough resources to delay release of xpack. Now they don't. They have to release, what they have, cuz they simply have no money for further development of xpack.

What I want to add - is that it's direct consequence of "Make game for few, but "good" players" policy. Some players were telling us, that game will survive and keep exactly the same quality of content, even if it will have just 1M of subs. I.e. that Blizzard shouldn't cater to casual players just to boost sub numbers. Blizzard have listened to this guys and game is made for very narrow audience of "true fans" now. But what do we see now? Yeah, unavoidable drop of quality.

[Wvvtayy]

That's, what is called "margin of strength". I.e. in a past Blizzard had enough resources to delay release of xpack. Now they don't. They have to release, what they have, cuz they simply have no money for further development of xpack.

What I want to add - is that it's direct consequence of "Make game for few, but "good" players" policy. Some players were telling us, that game will survive and keep exactly the same quality of content, even if it will have just 1M of subs. I.e. that Blizzard shouldn't cater to casual players just to boost sub numbers. Blizzard have listened to this guys and game is made for very narrow audience of "true fans" now. But what do we see now? Yeah, unavoidable drop of quality.

You're joking, right? Thanks to Overwatch and Hearthstone, Blizzard is making FAR more money now than they ever have before. That fact makes it even more sad that they're half assing an expansion like this. They have exponentially more resources than ever before.

[Drewbacca]

Yes, I remember those things, and I’m thankful that Blizzard has never strayed from them. Best gaming company in the business.

[Deleted]

Wanna know a secret? 2 months before Legion, they would probably have said the same "any further changes will have to be left for 7.1."
2 months before WoD, same thing, just with "6.1" instead.
Same for MoP with "5.1."
Cata with "4.1."
And the rest.

Exactly. It is basically the same as always for major changes. You have to stop somewhere. Blizzard just made the mistake of saying it out loud when they should have known there would be a crazy response.

Can you give me an example of an expansion where blizzard released a class where the best way to play the spec was to completely ignore the base concept your class is designed around?

Because that is the state of shadow.

[beelgers]

Can you give me an example of an expansion where blizzard released a class where the best way to play the spec was to completely ignore the base concept your class is designed around?

Because that is the state of shadow.

I get you're unhappy with Shadow. It probably is a bad design. Maybe Blizz will change their mind on it. What I don't understand is how that relates to what you quoted.

[Sencha]

Activision investors need money. A lot of players have already bought the game anyway.

[Wvvtayy]

I get you're unhappy with Shadow. It probably is a bad design. Maybe Blizz will change their mind on it. What I don't understand is how that relates to what you quoted.

Shadow isn't just badly designed, it's flat out broken, they've admitted as much. Same with shamans.

[beelgers]

Shadow isn't just badly designed, it's flat out broken, they've admitted as much. Same with shamans.

(still offtopic from what was being talked about but I'll bite anyway)
Shamans don't seem in a great place, but they seem totally playable. Where did Blizzard say they were flat out broken? Source?

[Deleted]

I get you're unhappy with Shadow. It probably is a bad design. Maybe Blizz will change their mind on it. What I don't understand is how that relates to what you quoted.

How can you not understand how it relates?

You and the other poster are saying that every expansion is the same where classes release with problems, the only difference this time is that blizzard went public with it, i ask you for a single example of where it has happened on this level before, it's not rocket science really.

[beelgers]

How can you not understand how it relates?

You and the other poster are saying that every expansion is the same where classes release with problems, i ask you for a single example of where it has happened on this level before, it's not rocket science really.

I said they stop making major changes. I get you're fired up, but I wasn't being rude to you. You're saying I'm arguing something else. Go back and reread. Since you're so emotionally invested in this I think I'll drop it here though.

[zito]

I get you're unhappy with Shadow. It probably is a bad design. Maybe Blizz will change their mind on it. What I don't understand is how that relates to what you quoted.

shadow has received 2 changes since the start of alpha half a year ago outside number tuning. The addition of dark ascension and a talent placement swap between SWD and ToF.

Outside of that shadow hasn't received any major changes, months of feedback on how shadow feels terrible and suggestions to make it better ignored and we are told to wait til 8.1 because the window is closing. The 2 month period is irrelevant because they had half a year to change things and they didn't.

But only now is shaman and shadow under their radar but it's too late expansions almost here, you gonna have to wait, except for monks lets throw a couple of last minute additions for them.

[Sail]

And no, I'm not saying I wanted another 14 month raid tier like SoO and HFC. But antorus has only been out 8 months. If they pushed the release back to early October or late September things would have probably been fine.

I survived the 16 months of SoO, I survived the 14 months of HFC, I can survive another 2 months of Antorus.

What I do not want to have to survive is a shit game that makes me quit after 40 days played in game (like WoD did).