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  1. #81
    Deleted
    Can't wait for the Wall of Text of NO regarding Vanilla Fanbois asking for QoL

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post
    I'm sure someone else in software development probably already said it but, that's the problem.
    I never intended to say bug fixes were mandatory, but by 1.12 the game was pretty stable. However if they fix a few bugs that don't affect the game play I won't be concerned about it not being vanilla.

    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post
    That was something that, to your typical gamer, isn't correlated.
    Everything was related in WoW, the class imbalance for example was part of the game.
    THe rarity of gold, the difficulty levelling, the look and feel of the world ... walking to dungeons. All of it created the experience of Vanilla.

    Challenge Mode : Play WoW like my disability has me play:
    You will need two people, Brian MUST use the mouse for movement/looking and John MUST use the keyboard for casting, attacking, healing etc.
    Briand and John share the same goal, same intentions - but they can't talk to each other, however they can react to each other's in game activities.
    Now see how far Brian and John get in WoW.


  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    actually you guys look silly. Everyone (and I mean everyone) knows that nostalgia isn't an applicable condition with most older video games, but only old versions of wow. The desire to play old versions of other games is actually an accepted preference based at least in part on qualitative factors. Ditto preferring the first star wars movies to the jar-jar technological terrors and/or the disney movies, or preferring old coca-cola (pre-new-coke) to the corn-syrup classic. Those are choices based on product differences, and everyone understand that.

    Also, preferring diablo 1 or 2 to 3 is clearly understood to take into account the different nature of those titles. They are very different games and no one would say that enjoying one more than the other is anything other than personal preference for different games with a common setting.

    Preferring pre-4.0 wow is a very different situation, of course. Qualitative factors clearly cannot apply, so the only possible reason is irrational nostalgia. If you haven't figured this out for yourselves, you need to keep reading the mmo-c classic forum, and perhaps review the megathread where the nostalgics were schooled on why they seemed to believe they wanted to play classic.

    the most fascinating part of that was no matter how much well-intentioned, caring, and concerned posters gently tried to guide the nostalgics into a more rational state of mind, most persisted in believing they actually preferred classic wow based on rational and objective factors.
    Playing remakes or retro games... or hell even dusting off your PS1 and firing up your copy of THPS2 invokes feelings of nostalgia. Video Game companies understand this and play off it as a result. Of course the desire for Classic isn't JUST nostalgia-fueled, but the point still stands that there are plenty of companies out there who release games on the whole Nostalgia angle to drive sales and are pretty successful at doing so. Blizzard is not alone on this.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    I never intended to say bug fixes were mandatory, but by 1.12 the game was pretty stable. However if they fix a few bugs that don't affect the game play I won't be concerned about it not being vanilla.


    Everything was related in WoW, the class imbalance for example was part of the game.
    THe rarity of gold, the difficulty levelling, the look and feel of the world ... walking to dungeons. All of it created the experience of Vanilla.
    You're completely mis-quoting me, and your replies have literally zero to do with what I said.

    What I was saying is that, take bugfixes. You can't simply take bugfix X that was fixed, honestly, even 1 revision ahead, if there were other parts that changed to facilitate bugfix X, as those "other parts" would also have to be brought.

    You can't implement feature Y, if it relies on other parts that didn't exist until 32 revisions ahead, without bring all those "other parts" along too.

    Simply put, and you can see how integrated a ton of (the to your typical gamer part) different components are when they alter something that, perceptually, doesn't even seem to affect Hogger, or Deadmines, yet somehow it affected it.

    Now, as much as what I'm saying is factually accurate (software developer, ~15+ years now), at the same time, it *can* be taken with a pinch of salt purely because we still don't truly know what they plan on giving us. Yea, they announced it. Yea, they said 1.12, but there is still a TON of prerequisite questions in the air, at least publicly, before you can even begin to answer how much of "1.12" would be altered by fixing X or implementing Y.

    Do they plan on giving us the current client, with a bunch of things (see: everything that came after 1.12) disabled? Do they plan on updating the 1.12 client to support modern hardware? Hell, even the color blind stuff (unsure when that was added?), I don't know what it "does", but if it affects anything outside of the literal interface of the client, and it wasn't introduced until *after* 1.12, that's already changes they need to make.

    The more and more I list out all these different changes, the more and more I'm actually beginning to realize that it will be *nothing* like what the "true" classic players actually want.

  5. #85
    Legendary! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Projectmars View Post
    Playing remakes or retro games... or hell even dusting off your PS1 and firing up your copy of THPS2 invokes feelings of nostalgia. Video Game companies understand this and play off it as a result. Of course the desire for Classic isn't JUST nostalgia-fueled, but the point still stands that there are plenty of companies out there who release games on the whole Nostalgia angle to drive sales and are pretty successful at doing so. Blizzard is not alone on this.
    right, nostalgia is one of the reasons, though to read the mega-thread you would hae thought the fact a game or game version was newer was in and of itself definitive proof the newer version WAS objectively a better game. No matter how absurd it sounds, yes, many on the megathread denied any claim of reason for preference besides that one.

    My take on it was that the need to insist that wanting to play old wow gamestates had to be 'nostalgia' rather than accept the ability of others to honestly prefer old game versions/states when it applied to wow (but not other stuff, of course) said more about the people requiring it to be nostalgia only than anything else - some folks felt threatened at some level with the negative comparisons being made with retail.
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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by rosso View Post
    Can't wait for the Wall of Text of NO regarding Vanilla Fanbois asking for QoL
    Us Vanilla fanbois may have our flaws, but we sure aren't as dense as the retail fanbois blindly clinging to the "wall of no". How does it feel to be left in the cold by the very company you were shilling for?

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    You get to skip all the mind numbing boring leveling process and jump straight to the endgame fun.
    This mindset is the whole problem of modern WoW.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Us Vanilla fanbois may have our flaws, but we sure aren't as dense as the retail fanbois blindly clinging to the "wall of no". How does it feel to be left in the cold by the very company you were shilling for?
    It is pretty comfy, since I don't feel ' left in the cold ' like vanilla bois not even knowing when classic will be released or that they will never start from 1.0 like a true progressive experience xD

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Im guessing you will get shredded for this comment, because most people in here have already come to the conclusion that Classic will be a success. For the individual players it might be a win, but i believe people are underestimating the potential cost for undertaking this project, and in turn, the potential losses if demand is shown to be lower than expected, or more short term than expected.
    Most people with a brain have come to the conclusion that Classic will be a success simply because, if you have a brain, you reallize just HOW FEW sub are needed to break even.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Embriel View Post
    Actually the way the games work are very different on a fundamental design level. Sure they look alike but the design philosophies are so different between vanilla and Legion that they might aswell be completely different games.
    I think the guy you're answering was being ironical about it.
    A bit too subtle, though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Projectmars View Post
    Playing remakes or retro games... or hell even dusting off your PS1 and firing up your copy of THPS2 invokes feelings of nostalgia.
    Only if you actually already played them, duh. Retro games today are often played by people who weren't even born at the time the original was released. From where does the "nostalgia" comes from then ?

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Most people with a brain have come to the conclusion that Classic will be a success simply because, if you have a brain, you reallize just HOW FEW sub are needed to break even.
    This means little because having 100 or 1000 account on Classic Server vs "at least" 2 milions Live account isn't the same.

    ESPECIALLY after all this "DURR YOU THINK YOU DO BUT YOU DONT DEERP" from "played last 3 months vanilla" fanbois that are assuming that there is a huge pop, like live one, that want to play Classic at all costs.


    The real thing to look for a "classic success" it will be over the first 6 months, after the initial spike + drop, and it will be a "stable" # of account active.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by rosso View Post
    This means little because having 100 or 1000 account on Classic Server vs "at least" 2 milions Live account isn't the same.

    ESPECIALLY after all this "DURR YOU THINK YOU DO BUT YOU DONT DEERP" from "played last 3 months vanilla" fanbois that are assuming that there is a huge pop, like live one, that want to play Classic at all costs.


    The real thing to look for a "classic success" it will be over the first 6 months, after the initial spike + drop, and it will be a "stable" # of account active.
    That's what you say. Blizzard says that it will be a "museum" and that they don't really care how many they have once it's online. And what ppl that want to play say is that they just want healthy populated servers to play on. So you can drop your CEO jacket and leave the spike+drop and stable projections because they are just plain useless at this point.

  12. #92
    Legendary! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    This mindset is the whole problem of modern WoW.
    To be fair, this is the problem A/B trained their customers to embrace. This is the outcome of choices they made over and over and over. People say they made leveling slower recently - I wonder if this was intentionally to

    1) encourage buying more instant-whatever toons (paid service )
    2) try to soften the disparity since it seems there will be a classic leveling to compare to
    3) ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by voidillusion View Post
    That's what you say. Blizzard says that it will be a "museum" and that they don't really care how many they have once it's online. And what ppl that want to play say is that they just want healthy populated servers to play on. So you can drop your CEO jacket and leave the spike+drop and stable projections because they are just plain useless at this point.
    This is an example of why blizzard can say these crazy things and not be laughed out of the room. There are a subset of customers that believe them and may not have the reference experience to realize they are highly improbable.

    Go to a financial message board's ATVI board and say they can forget about classic in the future financials because it is being made as a museum. If you are polite and read the responses, you will learn something. Almost no one on such a board will play any atvi games, and they will look at this in only one term - revenue. The thing to take into account is the executive team doesn't play the game either. They are there to make money.
    Last edited by Deficineiron; 2018-07-13 at 03:32 PM.
    Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Gene Wolfe, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, WM Hodgson, Fredrick Brown, Robert SheckleyJohn Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Stephen R Donaldon, and Jack L Chalker.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    To be fair, this is the problem A/B trained their customers to embrace. This is the outcome of choices they made over and over and over. People say they made leveling slower recently - I wonder if this was intentionally to

    1) encourage buying more instant-whatever toons (paid service )
    2) try to soften the disparity since it seems there will be a classic leveling to compare to
    3) ?

    - - - Updated - - -



    This is an example of why blizzard can say these crazy things and not be laughed out of the room. There are a subset of customers that believe them and may not have the reference experience to realize they are highly improbable.

    Go to a financial message board's ATVI board and say they can forget about classic in the future financials because it is being made as a museum. If you are polite and read the responses, you will learn something. Almost no one on such a board will play any atvi games, and they will look at this in only one term - revenue. The thing to take into account is the executive team doesn't play the game either. They are there to make money.
    The thing is that when they do open the servers there is no turning back, if it happens like J.A.Brack said and they end up only having a handfull of players what are they going to do? Close the servers? The (small) investment is made at that point, so i do actually believe his words because by then it's done and the most they could do in case they really wanted to monetize would be to push it.

    "This is an important game in videogame history and there’s not a way to go back and experience that today. This is also about preserving something that we think is really important."

    This was what he said last and what i've been thinking for years now, forget the revenue expectations, or the delusions that it might have more ppl than retail and all that crap. It was a phenomenon at it's time, it is a important game in videogame history, there are tons of pservers subjecting a fanbase to play in subpar conditions and having to deal with their "drama". It suits a company like Blizzard realizing this and opening Classic servers just because that statement is indeed true and the most important reason of all imo.

  14. #94
    Legendary! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidillusion View Post
    The thing is that when they do open the servers there is no turning back, if it happens like J.A.Brack said and they end up only having a handfull of players what are they going to do? Close the servers? The (small) investment is made at that point, so i do actually believe his words because by then it's done and the most they could do in case they really wanted to monetize would be to push it.

    "This is an important game in videogame history and there’s not a way to go back and experience that today. This is also about preserving something that we think is really important."

    This was what he said last and what i've been thinking for years now, forget the revenue expectations, or the delusions that it might have more ppl than retail and all that crap. It was a phenomenon at it's time, it is a important game in videogame history, there are tons of pservers subjecting a fanbase to play in subpar conditions and having to deal with their "drama". It suits a company like Blizzard realizing this and opening Classic servers just because that statement is indeed true and the most important reason of all imo.
    My take on this

    Privately or closely held corporations can make sentimental decisions due to their ownership structure. Publicly traded one are, in social/moral terms, nearly sociopathic in how little flexibility they have to do things for reasons other than money or ego (ego is an inadvertent reason, at the time it is not called that-there are all kinds of cases of ceo ego pushing a path that is disastrous if you follow a lot of financial news, but I do not think Kotick is in this category generally. his team's direction on things is rarely an outright failure). I don't think the dominating minds at ATVI gives two figs about classic wow as anything but potential revenue, and I think there is a good chance they feel that properly adjusting the game to appeal more broadly to modern gamers, or at least to folks who are more accustomed to, say, 3.0.2 as a starting point, is an obvious idea.

    Notice brack was talking to customers, not investors - this is just placing a 'we don't care about the money' narrative out there, because some customers take it at face value.

    the first question an analyst would ask is 'what do you intend to do to maximize revenue on classic? Do you expect to be able to introduce paid services to the degree retail has them, and/or introduce new ones?' (because he knows atvi won't give projections, which would have been the first question) and he has every right to ask it and shareholders have every right to expect the company to do it.
    Last edited by Deficineiron; 2018-07-13 at 03:59 PM.
    Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Gene Wolfe, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, WM Hodgson, Fredrick Brown, Robert SheckleyJohn Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Stephen R Donaldon, and Jack L Chalker.

  15. #95
    I do, and I have one of the best parts of it in my sig so all of the butthurt babies get to see it every-single-day. c:

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    My take on this

    Privately or closely held corporations can make sentimental decisions due to their ownership structure. Publicly traded one are, in social/moral terms, nearly sociopathic in how little flexibility they have to do things for reasons other than money or ego (there are all kinds of cases of ceo ego pushing a path that is disastrous if you follow a lot of financial news, but I do not think Kotick is in this category generally). I don't think the dominating minds at ATVI gives two figs about classic wow, and I think there is a good chance they feel that properly adjusting the game to appeal more broadly to modern gamers, or at least to folks who are more accustomed to, say, 3.0.2 as a starting point, is an obvious idea.

    Notice brack was talking to customers, not investors - this is just placing a 'we don't care about the money' narrative out there, because some customers take it at face value.

    the first question an analyst would ask is 'what do you intend to do to maximize revenue on classic? Do you expect to be able to introduce paid services to the degree retail has them, and/or introduce new ones?' (because he knows atvi won't give projections, which would have been the first question) and he has every right to ask it and shareholders have every right to expect the company to do it.
    If you insist in only looking at it through those lens, you can see it as a PR move above everything, with some small IP protection consequences as well.

    Since i'm not a shareholder, not trying to trash you or anything, but i have small interest in those points you highlighted wich may well be very valid, but as a player, as a fan, i just want a true representation of that game where i can play, as minimalist as it may sound.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    Yeah I remember, and I thought it was really dumb at the time because literally every other time that Blizzard said "No, never." to something they eventually caved. From server changes to faction changes to a cash shop to Vanilla servers.
    I thought classic servers were the only thing Blizzard had ever said a firm No too. Most others were always some ambiguous statement that could mean maybe or not at all. That is why the wall of No became a thing. Blizzard never toyed with the idea. They never gave any ground on it. Over the years, anytime it was asked, they would always say No, with no discussion other then their reason this time. They never once gave any quarter to the thought. Then suddenly decided to go for it.

    I remember that wall well. It was touted as the prime example of one thing Blizzard was not going to budge from. Then they did. As you said, goes to show that eventually, they will change their mind on anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by scorpious1109 View Post
    Why the hell would you wait till after you did this to confirm the mortality rate of such action?

  18. #98
    Legendary! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidillusion View Post
    If you insist in only looking at it through those lens, you can see it as a PR move above everything, with some small IP protection consequences as well.

    Since i'm not a shareholder, not trying to trash you or anything, but i have small interest in those points you highlighted wich may well be very valid, but as a player, as a fan, i just want a true representation of that game where i can play, as minimalist as it may sound.
    To be clear, I want to play on an official 1.12 server with no game-play changes.

    I am not a shareholder either. I have daytraded ATVI at some points in my life. I don't think I have ever even held it overnight.

    I have been over 2 decades in the financial sector, and that part of me knows the most likely outcomes is they modify classic to more broadly appeal to a larger group of potential players. There is potentially a great deal of money at stake here. Given the cultish nature of blizzard's fan base (not referring to you, but to the people who follow what blue says in aggregate), they know that expectation management is a very important thing. Everything blue says to customers in this context I view through this prism.

    The atvi mgmt team would be criticized for not exploiting the potential of a classic reboot. If wow had been the atvi team's brainchild, then maybe, maybe, there might be some inherent bias toward releasing a more authentic, but perhaps less financially exploitable product. however, wow is just something they acquired, like candy crush.

    Also, consider how ruthlessly they continue to develop/exploit the potential of their own COD franchise - ask if this is the company that is gonna make a museum version not geared toward maximum revenue.

    I have listened to and read a lot of interviews with bobby kotick, and listened to or read transcripts of a lot of conference calls. those guys are not in any way sentimental about anything to do with current products, much less about wow.

    If I had to develop a financially based counter-argument, I would argue that there is some possibility the performance of wow in late bc (still very demanding game in time and even some skill with all kinds of content never seen by most players) indicates there is a different potential market for that kind of game, and that this could be used as a basis for proposing a more authentic classic wow. At this level it probably comes down to the 10-year-old relationship between morhaime and the atvi exec team, which we know almost nothing about, and it assumes morhaime even wants to look at this issue in that context.

    For what it is worth, I believe my counter-argument is correct, though churn trend info is lacking. However, it didn't matter in late 2008 and I don't think it will matter now. A/B is the accessible game company.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    I thought classic servers were the only thing Blizzard had ever said a firm No too. Most others were always some ambiguous statement that could mean maybe or not at all. That is why the wall of No became a thing. Blizzard never toyed with the idea. They never gave any ground on it. Over the years, anytime it was asked, they would always say No, with no discussion other then their reason this time. They never once gave any quarter to the thought. Then suddenly decided to go for it.

    I remember that wall well. It was touted as the prime example of one thing Blizzard was not going to budge from. Then they did. As you said, goes to show that eventually, they will change their mind on anything.
    actually pve - to pvp xfers was a 'never' iirc
    Last edited by Deficineiron; 2018-07-13 at 04:18 PM.
    Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Gene Wolfe, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, WM Hodgson, Fredrick Brown, Robert SheckleyJohn Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Stephen R Donaldon, and Jack L Chalker.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by 8bithamster View Post
    In this topic,

    salty classic players who can't handle opposing opinions and have to enforce their opinions.

    Always done by severly insecure people outside the internet.. hmm

    Seriously.. OP is "lawl people were wrong, I was right! I am perfect they are noobs"

    This is why I avoid the classic crowd.
    Irony xD

    10char

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavll View Post
    Irony xD

    10char
    so hurt that you quote a week old post? Goal reached! thanks

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