Poll Shows Germans Want US Troops to Withdraw From Germany

[Deleted]

"So to everyone who just wants us gone forever... What's your answer to russia rolling in heavy, roughly 5 minutes later?"

The answer is you would shit yourselves and do nothing as you did when Russia invaded Ukraine despite having given an explicit promise to protect them. Not that it would help much anyway...if you can't do shit about the Taleban you certainly can't stop the Russians.

- - - Updated - - -

*headpat* That it is nice. Be your best you!

Is that gay military slang? That's not really my thing, thanks.

[ShimmerSwirl]

If europe was smart they would just all gang up together and form some kind of union and use their collective assets to become a true global power, and then they wouldn't care what the US does at all. They could even create a new currency for the union, call it a "Euroo" or something like that. Everyone operating under the same economic flag and currency would definitely cause all previous strains of patriotism to die, and with them would go all culture, language and anything else that might have made its members unique countries before.

[Thekri]

"So to everyone who just wants us gone forever... What's your answer to russia rolling in heavy, roughly 5 minutes later?"

The answer is you would shit yourselves and do nothing as you did when Russia invaded Ukraine despite having given an explicit promise to protect them.

Which is an explicit promise you made up about five minutes ago. At least that is what my evil brainwashing media has caused me to believe.

Is that gay military slang? That's not really my thing, thanks.

Yep! I understand our decadent western ways are foreign to you, but how do you know you don't like it unless you try?

[GreenJesus]

If europe was smart they would just all gang up together and form some kind of union and use their collective assets to become a true global power, and then they wouldn't care what the US does at all. They could even create a new currency for the union, call it a "Euroo" or something like that. Everyone operating under the same economic flag and currency would definitely cause all previous strains of patriotism to die, and with them would go all culture, language and anything else that might have made its members unique countries before.

Europe is too cheap to do that. They can barely spend 1% GDP without people being up in an uproar. They are fine stealing from America's piggybank to protect them. I say leave them and see how they deal with Russia on their own. We built their countries up with the marshal plan. Time to let them defend themselves now. The problem is there are 2 options: either US protect them or the euro voters refuse to pay for it themselves.

We'll see them soon enough groveling back to us wishing that they appreciated us more.

[Irollmyface]

I do not understand why both sides do not agree with having NATO members pay their 2%. Currently as it stands the US pays 3.5% of its GDP, which is a good amount of money. According to CNN, it is about $623 billion. All other members of NATO pay about $312 billion on defense together. Some quick math shows that, added together, all other members of NATO states pay approximately 1.43% of their GDP, with some being above 2% like Greece at 2.32% and UK at 2.14% and others way below, like Luxembourg at 0.44% and Belgium at 0.94%. Please note I used the extremes from both sides as my examples. With an increase in average of all NATO members to 2% we are looking at an increases of approximately $100 billion. This is a great way for the US tax payers to be able to reduce their portion of military spending down. In the big picture $100 billion is nothing to the US government. However we could use that money instead on better "social" programs, like improving our K-12 school system or improving roads. Will that actually happen? Probably not. The US would still probably spend the same amount or more on defense, but in theory this is a possibility.

My personal opinion is that some of these countries have better social programs then the US because they don't have to spend as much on defense, because of the US. They understand that if they are attacked the US will come to their assistance as required by being a member of NATO. I do NOT agree with pulling out of NATO, this is an alliance that is also good for trade, economy, freedom of movement, etc. I just want other countries to pull their fair share, so my country can spend our money on other things.

[Deleted]

So to everyone who just wants us gone forever... What's your answer to russia rolling in heavy, roughly 5 minutes later?

Easy, reality.
Russia does lacks the logistic, financial, military capability of invading Europe, let alone holding territory. Even if they were to invade the buildup of such a force would take months to gather and get into position for a invasion.

Europe is too cheap to do that. They can barely spend 1% GDP without people being up in an uproar. They are fine stealing from America's piggybank to protect them. I say leave them and see how they deal with Russia on their own. We built their countries up with the marshal plan. Time to let them defend themselves now. The problem is there are 2 options: either US protect them or the euro voters refuse to pay for it themselves.

We'll see them soon enough groveling back to us wishing that they appreciated us more.

European defense spending is not low. If you look at actual spending in USD or Euros instead of %. European Countries are some of the top 10 worldwide spenders. Germany for example with its current spending is one of worlds top 10 spenders. If you combine the various European Countries who are NATO they outspend the Americans.

The Americans want Europeans to pay more so they can sell US equipment to them. Especially bloated projects like the F35.

[Naiyano]

Easy, reality.
Russia does lacks the logistic, financial, military capability of invading Europe, let alone holding territory. Even if they were to invade the buildup of such a force would take months to gather and get into position for a invasion.

I second this.

Do americans realise that they don't have to spend that much money on milltary? I mean just pay less then 600 billion Dollar. There is no magic threshold that has to be reached to keep the NATO going as far as i know. All the tax money spend is your government burning money. To enforce that same stupid behaviour on other countries is kind of funny.

[Deleted]

If europe was smart they would just all gang up together and form some kind of union and use their collective assets to become a true global power.

Yes Europe was happy in there relationship there US was the driving force, but if US continue to provoke/strain the relationship it will happen.

- - - Updated - - -

They are fine stealing from America's piggybank to protect them. Time to let them defend themselves now.

US do have a arguemnt IF the majority of US troop was stationed in eastern NATO ready to defend agenst a Russian attack. But the majority of US troop are NOT in eastern NATO, only a tripwire force....

[Slant]

I'm not sure about the source.

US troops in Germany means that an attack on Germany is an attack on the US.

But maybe now is the time to pull US troops out of Europe? We could shrink our military. Wikipedia says we have 65K troops stationed in Europe, in salaries alone that is a lot of money.

Those 65k troops in Germany? Maintaining your strategic Air commands for Europe/Africa, the logistics hub leading into the ME and the trauma center for wounded out of the ME. Anything that's not going by carrier is going via Germany. It's not like you have troops here to guard Germany. LOL

- - - Updated - - -

But what i encountered throughout the last decades, that the germans probably don't like a foreign troops contingent their territory, though it would be a pitty for the ties and relations & friendships that have been made with the US-Soldiers, probably a large part of the population won't have anything against the US-Troops pulling out.

Stop making up shit. West Germany had excellent relations to French, British and US forces. After Germany was united, the only troops we literally kicked out were Soviet forces. In fact, Germany and France merged a brigade and created a combined brigade. We are fond of our allies and very accomodating hosts.

What we don't like is the fucking arrogance that people like you think you're entitled to being here. You're not. You're our guests. Behave yourself and show some fucking humility. That's all.

I've not encountered anyone that wants the US to pull out. That sentiment simply doesn't exist. You're straight up fantasizing.

- - - Updated - - -

Hopefully they leave, having foreign troops on your soil is a rather risky thing to have. Politics are far too fickle, not to have your allies turn on you at one point.

What is this madness? US troops would not attack Germany even if Trump told them. I can tell you that much. Nobody would stand for it. No US general, no member of congress. We're one of the closest allies of the US, not quite family but not far away from it. Jesus, listen to yourselves people...

Don't let Trump fuck up your thinking like that. Hands up, who here is a Russian troll wanting to divide the West? C'mon, be honest now...

- - - Updated - - -

There is an incredible amount of very low post count voters in this thread, all with nonsense names and trying to stir up shit between the US and Europe. Glad to see MMO Champion hasn't avoided Russian government attention. I am not even kidding, some of these guys are almost certainly Russians or people paid by them.

Agreed, this thread is preposterous.

[Kiri]

Europe is too cheap to do that. They can barely spend 1% GDP without people being up in an uproar. They are fine stealing from America's piggybank to protect them. I say leave them and see how they deal with Russia on their own. We built their countries up with the marshal plan. Time to let them defend themselves now. The problem is there are 2 options: either US protect them or the euro voters refuse to pay for it themselves.

We'll see them soon enough groveling back to us wishing that they appreciated us more.

It is funny. 30 years ago, a lot of Americans were opposed to German reunification, fearing that it might surge again to a militaristically powerful country. Even a decade ago, no one batted an eye on Germany being a less militarized state. But now that Trump says that Germany is not paying its dues or whatever, it suddenly becomes a problem that they are not increasing spending fast enough.
Also, people still have to explain to me how the piggyback thing works. Does not jive how military spending is effectively utilized at all.

I do not understand why both sides do not agree with having NATO members pay their 2%. Currently as it stands the US pays 3.5% of its GDP, which is a good amount of money. According to CNN, it is about $623 billion. All other members of NATO pay about $312 billion on defense together. Some quick math shows that, added together, all other members of NATO states pay approximately 1.43% of their GDP, with some being above 2% like Greece at 2.32% and UK at 2.14% and others way below, like Luxembourg at 0.44% and Belgium at 0.94%. Please note I used the extremes from both sides as my examples. With an increase in average of all NATO members to 2% we are looking at an increases of approximately $100 billion. This is a great way for the US tax payers to be able to reduce their portion of military spending down. In the big picture $100 billion is nothing to the US government. However we could use that money instead on better "social" programs, like improving our K-12 school system or improving roads. Will that actually happen? Probably not. The US would still probably spend the same amount or more on defense, but in theory this is a possibility.

My personal opinion is that some of these countries have better social programs then the US because they don't have to spend as much on defense, because of the US. They understand that if they are attacked the US will come to their assistance as required by being a member of NATO. I do NOT agree with pulling out of NATO, this is an alliance that is also good for trade, economy, freedom of movement, etc. I just want other countries to pull their fair share, so my country can spend our money on other things.

Let me try to explain a few of these things.
First, the 2% of GDP is a stupid measure to begin with. GDP is not a fixed value. If your GDP falls, but defense spending stays the same - or potentially even is reduced - your percentage of defense spending can increase by virtue of that alone. But that does literally nothing to improve the combat efficiency of NATO. Heck, a country could decomission whole battalions, and through economic circumstance they might be closer to Trump's goal. It's a stupid measure, simple as that. But it is something that Joe Everyman understands a bit better, so Trump focuses on that. If you look at defense spending itself, preferentially accounting for inflation too, then Germany increased spending by 6.6% in inflation-corrected dollars. But that does not fit Trump's agenda of painting Germany as some kind of leech, so he and his followers will not talk about that and usually ignore it, when you bring it up.

Second, there is kind of a conflation between "military spending" and "NATO contributions". There is a common NATO budget, which you can find here ( https://www.nato.int/cps/ie/natohq/topics_67655.htm ) under direct funding. The US also pays the highest share there with 22%, while Germany pays the second highest with 14%. Again, that does not fit the Trump narrative, so that is summarily ignored in favour of defence spending in general.
However, defence spending in general is not necessarily the same as spending just for national defence. If the US shoots rockets at Syria, under any president, that causes defence spending to replace them, but it does not exactly do much to defend a NATO ally. The US presence in many countries and areas around the world furthers US geopolitical interests, but is not necessarily in the interest of defending NATO countries. Heck, even the bases in Japan and Korea are strictly speaking not involved with NATO at all. But all that accounts for US defence spending, still. As such, just using that as a measure for 'NATO contributions' is also kind of sketchy. Germany, lacking international interests that it utilizes its military to defend, mostly spends its budget on defensive measures and on equipment and troops used in UN and NATO missions. It usually does not move at all without a broader mandate. All in all, defence spending by itself is a bad measure for NATO spending. It is just used, even by NATO itself, since it is the only good indicator they have.
Now, comparing defence spending in absolute terms has a further shortcoming simply due to the disparities in nations. A land-locked country does not need a navy, while one surrounded by water on all sides needs one. A small country with a low population has much different defensive needs than a big one with a huge population. And then there are also the notions of effectiveness and efficiency that has to be considered. Two countries can spend the same amount of money on defence, but they might still end up with vastly different militaries. Some can produce their own tanks, others have to import them, etc., etc. All of that together makes it an unreliable indicator at best.

While it is true that other countries can rely to some extent on US support and protection, I personally disagree with the notion about everyone abusing the US here. Heck, I grew up in an area that the US considered a buffer zone if the UDSSR decided to attack. In either event though, the notion that the US would spend less money on the military if others spent more seems downright absurd. Even Donald Trump does not want that. Heck, the budget he passed increased that spending and he was proud of it.
No, Trump does not wish to to reduce military spending and instead spend the money on infrastructure and social programs. What he wants - aside from finding reasons to speak out against certain countries for his own ends - is for others to pay the US instead. He literally said that. If he had his way, he would turn a mutual defence pact that so far has mostly been to the benefit of the US, into a protection racket.

[Slant]

Listen, idiot, it is very simple. Pretty much everywhere in the world the US military is despised. Not just Russia. Not just Europe. The world. If you actually spoke to any one outside your country, which you obviously never have, you would understand this. You are protected from this simple truth by your media, and your own breathtaking lack of intellectual curiousity. You'd just have to look at basic census data to reveal the utter hatred most countries have of you, but you would never actually do that because no one can ever prick the bubble of unreallity you people inhabit.

And yes, this is a new id. Any one who calls out the US on these forums to even the slightest extentgets banned as happens with any us-based forum. That's the level of tolerance you have for criticism in your country, you are like some brainwashed banana republic. The only non-americans that post here are euronazis who are weirdly enamoured of Trump, and the odd Marxist who seem to be permitted because you people are too stupid to understand them.

You're wrong. The US isn't despised. Your godking Putin's puppet Trump is despised. Many people see through your agenda by now. Trump will fail, Putin will fail. And once the US starts cleaning up this mess, you'll face a Western front so united, you'll think you're back to the 60s, except now you've got no allied satelite states to buffer you from the scorn of the West. We'll isolate you so hard, NK will look like best house party on the block.

[Shalcker]

Stop making up shit. West Germany had excellent relations to French, British and US forces. After Germany was united, the only troops we literally kicked out were Soviet forces. In fact, Germany and France merged a brigade and created a combined brigade. We are fond of our allies and very accomodating hosts.

Soviet troops were never "kicked out"; they left after Soviet decision to leave (and to not interfere with German re-unification).

In a same way, Americans can leave anytime they decide it is in their interest to do so; your ability to force them out should not be overestimated.

[Slant]

Soviet troops were never "kicked out"; they left after Soviet decision to leave (and to not interfere with German re-unification).

In a same way, Americans can leave anytime they decide it is in their interest to do so; your ability to force them out should not be overestimated.

Is this communist rephrasing? I mean, we let the Soviet get all the credit, but trust me, one thing was never going to happen. A continued presence of Soviet forces in unified Germany. That was just not going to happen under any circumstance. But hey, pretend the Soviets had a choice in it if it makes you feel better. :P

[Deleted]

You're wrong. The US isn't despised. Your godking Putin's puppet Trump is despised. Many people see through your agenda by now. Trump will fail, Putin will fail. And once the US starts cleaning up this mess, you'll face a Western front so united, you'll think you're back to the 60s, except now you've got no allied satelite states to buffer you from the scorn of the West. We'll isolate you so hard, NK will look like best house party on the block.

Are you fucking retarded? Do you not understand that it is very easy to hold negative views of both the Russia and the US? Both countries are widely despised.

You'd think think you could read a few posts up in the thread and notice the fact that I was calling out the US for being weak on the Russian aggression in Ukraine.

I thought this "any one who dislikes the US is a russian bot" thing was limited to dimwitted yanks who can't understand that people don't love them, it is fucking embarassing to hear it from a european.

[candle86]

i see no reason to leave, i think the Germans lost a right to decide on if a foreign power can be stationed in their country after they started two world wars

[Shalcker]

Is this communist rephrasing? I mean, we let the Soviet get all the credit, but trust me, one thing was never going to happen. A continued presence of Soviet forces in unified Germany. That was just not going to happen under any circumstance. But hey, pretend the Soviets had a choice in it if it makes you feel better. :P

If Soviets would decide to stay, they had every right and opportunity to stop German re-unification. You had to do decades of diplomatic promises (that you later betrayed) to make them change their mind.

It is not like, as mentioned by others above, there weren't voices against unification on either side; you wanted it and you paid for it.

I'm sure if you pay Americans enough they can leave too.

[Slant]

Are you fucking retarded? Do you not understand that it is very easy to hold negative views of both the Russia and the US? Both countries are widely despised.

I thought this "any one who dislikes the US is a russian bot" thing was limited to dimwitted yanks who can't understand that people don't love them, it is fucking embarassing to hear it from a european.

Let me make this very clear: The US is not generally despised in Germany. You can be upset about that, but that's how it is. We may bicker and bitch about them, and get into heated debates... but what Putinistas will never understand is that the EU and the US arguing with each other like we are now is kinda like a bitchfight within a family. It happens, it's never pretty and tears will flow... but attack us from the outside and you'll see a united front and where priorities really lie.

Make no mistake, the US is family. So is Britain. Fuck with one of us and you'll fuck with all of us. Tell that to your Putinista overlords.

- - - Updated - - -

i see no reason to leave, i think the Germans lost a right to decide on if a foreign power can be stationed in their country after they started two world wars

Luckily you have no say in this.

- - - Updated - - -

If Soviets would decide to stay, they had every right and opportunity to stop German re-unification. You had to do decades of diplomatic promises (that you later betrayed) to make them change their mind.

It not like, as mentioned by others above, there weren't voices against unification on either side.

Soviets had to agree to the reunification, you're right. It's one thing we're grateful for and the main reason we're still talking to Putin. But anything after that is Germany acting as a sovereign nation and deciding who gets to stay and who doesn't. :P

[Dendrek]

They’ll probably go full Nazi again as soon as we leave. It’s like babysitting a fat kid around chocolate.

We're well on our way to beating them to it. Four more years? Why not 8 more? 12 more? We could just remove the right to vote. Who needs democracy when we can have Trump instead? #MAGA

[Deleted]

Make no mistake, the US is family. So is Britain. Fuck with one of us and you'll fuck with all of us. Tell that to your Putinista overlords.

Seriously? I'm a Putinista? Because I was chiding the US for a lack of response over Russian aggression in Ukraine?

And no, the US is not family. In WWII it let the Uk get bombed for two years and only entered the war when the Battle Of Britain was over. It subsequently made a lot of money bankrupting Britain when it took over control of our monetary system as we struggled to pay back war debt.
The US did not intervene directly in any British conflict, not in Suez, the Falkland Islands and many US citizens actively funded the IRA in Northern Ireland. By contrast we supported the US in numerous stupid wars.

Either way, you can carry on sucking yank dick if you like, looks like we are electing Jeremy Corbyn and then finally, we have no more to do with these disgustingly violent, greedy and stupid people.


Oh and Btw you obviously are not representative of your people. 28 per cent trust the Russians, only 25% trust America. That's how popular the US is in Germany-that's not a temporary tiff.

[Shalcker]

Soviets had to agree to the reunification, you're right. It's one thing we're grateful for and the main reason we're still talking to Putin. But anything after that is Germany acting as a sovereign nation and deciding who gets to stay and who doesn't. :P

Well, as you see plenty of people think otherwise as far as US presence is concerned.

I still remember pitiful display by German minister (i think? can't find that video fast enough) asked by press on German potential input on question on should it or should it not host US nuclear weapons when their return/replacement was announced... do you decide that?

Can you actually opt out?