Does Blizzard still think personal loot should be forced in BFA for EVERYBODY?

[Deleted]

That's cute and everything, but I never implied nor suggested that all people who use ML are thieves/etc. I've had plenty of positive raiding experiences where ML was done fairly and without incident. But too many people on this forum assume that their experience = everyone's experience. "I haven't seen a lot of stuff ninja'd, so it must not be a problem."

When in fact, part of the reason we've been given so many tools/options for things like loot was - per Blizzard's own admission - to allow for players to better "police themselves".

Loot drama has always been a part of this game - there were 'name and shame' topics on the official forums as far back as vanilla. It is what it is. Personal Loot isn't perfect far from it), but then, what loot system is? Group loot is still at the mercy of RNG where you might get 3 tokens no one needs, or a hunter that needs the tank trinket ('my pet needs STA too' lol), while ML slows the raid down (allocating the drops) and requires someone trustworthy/unbiased.

Also, I think Vashe9 mean rerolled toons, but I could be wrong.

You are so wrong and self-assuring in your perception (I struggle to call it "thinking") it doesn't even make sense to discuss any of your statements. It's your bubble and you are keeping it intact by all means necessary. Good luck in life.

[Blorgo]

Loot drama has always been a part of this game - there were 'name and shame' topics on the official forums as far back as vanilla. It is what it is. Personal Loot isn't perfect far from it), but then, what loot system is? Group loot is still at the mercy of RNG where you might get 3 tokens no one needs, or a hunter that needs the tank trinket ('my pet needs STA too' lol), while ML slows the raid down (allocating the drops) and requires someone trustworthy/unbiased.

But what exactly is the problem with the current situation of being able, as a guild, to choose between PersoLoot and masterloot?
Why force everyone to use PersoLoot on guilds? People who have an issue with their Lootmaster or the way your guild handels loot can just join another guild?


Me getting the Item getting a small upgrade < A raidmember getting the item who benefits more
This way we get to progress faster and make our raidteam stronger.
This is the reason why the new system is bad. But this is not the POV of casuals who just care what items t

[Raelbo]

So they're doing it in order to get away with doing less work... and they're telling us it's entirely for our benefit and we should be grateful.

I dunno man, you're not really selling it.

What part of "everybody wins" did you fail to comprehend? Clearly you're more interested in trying to distort stuff other people to suit your narrative than bother to understand what we're trying to tell you.

You know... I'm seeing people time and time again that this change is being made for the majority of the playerbase. The casuals who don't do hardcore progression, who don't do split raids or funnel gear.

That argument doesn't really hold water either, because Personal Loot is still the default gearing method. You have to manually change to Master Loot. These casual guilds are ACTIVELY deciding to use ML over PL. So even the casual players seem to want and prefer ML.

If the vast majority of players really preferred Personal Loot, wouldn't it be super easy to find a guild that uses it? On the other hand, if it's really that hard to find a guild that prefers Personal... doesn't that sort of imply that the majority of players actually DON'T prefer it?

The reason competitive guilds use ML has bugger all to do with what anyone prefers and entirely to do with being able to optimise gear distribution for maximum performance. Competitive people will always choose advantage over what they prefer, which ends up detracting from the gaming experience.

Let's just be honest about this: No one prefers seeing all the best loot consistently going to other people over getting their fair share for themselves. But we do it willingly because it's how you game the system. That's just a sign of a bad system.

[Deleted]

Let's just be honest about this: No one prefers seeing all the best loot consistently going to other people over getting their fair share for themselves. But we do it willingly because it's how you game the system. That's just a sign of a bad system.

I have tanked this entire expansion, which put me really low on the loot prio list. Did it suck sometimes? Sure. Was it the right thing to gear the dps first? Yes. Would I prefer to continue doing it that way? Yes. Because it isn't about my gear, it's about killing bosses. Also no offense but what is the best gear depends strongly on your class. On-use trinket with a 2 min CD? Great if you dps cd is 2 min as well. Way less good if not. ML gave us flexibility in priority and assignment. It allowed to quickly gear another DK when you were approaching aggramar and giving the Crit/Vers ring to the feral instead of the Fury warrior. If they don't get secondaries somewhat in line (and even though they try, we all know they probably won't) a lot of jewelry is going to be vendor trash instead of easy upgrades.

[Deleted]

The downside is that Azerite gear is untradeable.

And ilvl doesnt mean its better. Escpialyl not for trinkets or rings and ndecks which got no main stast, 900 item with 2best satst >905 item with 2worst stast.
But if was hueg upgrade for someone else now you cant give ti them anymore. Like hiw hard is it for people to egt that?

[Raelbo]

I have tanked this entire expansion, which put me really low on the loot prio list. Did it suck sometimes? Sure. Was it the right thing to gear the dps first? Yes. Would I prefer to continue doing it that way? Yes. Because it isn't about my gear, it's about killing bosses. Also no offense but what is the best gear depends strongly on your class. On-use trinket with a 2 min CD? Great if you dps cd is 2 min as well. Way less good if not. ML gave us flexibility in priority and assignment.

I totally get that. I really do. What the anti-PL crowd need to figure out though is that this is only an issue in a paradigm in which you have a choice to move gear around. If you take away that choice then you no longer have to worry about all that. You no longer have to choose between a better, more equitable gaming experience and a more successful gaming experience. If you get a gear upgrade, you get to feel good because you are able to contribute more.

Essentially what this change means is that Mythic guilds are going to end up having more evenly geared players with less of a gear disparity between your superstars and everyone else, which can only be a good thing.

It allowed to quickly gear another DK when you were approaching aggramar and giving the Crit/Vers ring to the feral instead of the Fury warrior. If they don't get secondaries somewhat in line (and even though they try, we all know they probably won't) a lot of jewelry is going to be vendor trash instead of easy upgrades.

With PL you'll still be able to trade stuff and gear new characters quickly. The limitation on rapid gearing would generally only be early in the raid tier. So, for example, my hunter might get one high ilevel Haste/Vers ring which is useless to him, but from there on out I will be able to trade any other rings as long as I hang on to the high ilevel one.

Lastly, while it is 100% true that ML is better than PL at optimising gear distribution for maximum gearing up speed, it actually doesn't control that speed at all. That is because the speed of gearing up is dependent on a number of other factors (quantity of gear that drops, ilevel of gear, ease of killing bosses etc). And because ML allows you to funnel gear, in effect all that it actually accomplishes is creating a gear disparity between people in a group.

[Deleted]

Just a small thing: You don't need to hang on to useless items of high ilvl. Blizz has stated that you can trade non Azerite pieces, if you ever had an equal or higher item level item of that slot soulbound. Vendoring them changes nothing.
Concerning your assertion that it only matters because I compare it to ML: Sure, if PL is the only option, than it is the best option as well, but it introduces another level of RNG on top of the not exactly few we already have. Think back to nighthold. Let's say you have a fury warrior and a Retadin in your group. Elisande drops a convergence of fates and Gul'dan his melee on use trinket. The difference in what your raid gets out of these two items between the ret getting them and the warrior getting them is obscene.

Powerful trinkets tend to be extremely good on certain classes, while being meh on others, so that PL can really hurt your raid by throwing the wrong items at people. Bonus rolls are a good way to control gear disparity within a guild, and honestly I have never seen it as that much of a problem.

[kamuimac]

Those situations are so uncommon that it doesn't really matter. I've done hundreds of PUG runs and only once or twice has the master looter been an issue.

They are uncommon just because few people who openly admit to abuse others claim so ? Ye sure we gonna belive some random forum abusers over Blizzard.

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And ilvl doesnt mean its better. Escpialyl not for trinkets or rings and ndecks which got no main stast, 900 item with 2best satst >905 item with 2worst stast.
But if was hueg upgrade for someone else now you cant give ti them anymore. Like hiw hard is it for people to egt that?

Clearly you dont have beta Access. Else you woudlnt spread lies. Due to how Blizzard changed secomdaries atm if something is 5 itlv higher regardless of secondaries IT Has its like 95percent of time upgrade for you . 10 itlv higher is likely 99,9 percent IT will be upgrade. Secondaries are almost redundant at this point. But this was the only way they could fight with legion gearing up fiasco.

[burek]

Think back to nighthold. Let's say you have a fury warrior and a Retadin in your group. Elisande drops a convergence of fates and Gul'dan his melee on use trinket. The difference in what your raid gets out of these two items between the ret getting them and the warrior getting them is obscene.

Let's say you keep getting tank trinkets every week from guldan, even multiple ones, and the only way to get the caster ones was through bonus rolls. That happened to our raid. Even though there were like 6 casters and only 2 tanks. Good loot with a slightly less than optimal distribution is better than no good loot at all. And that is even a bigger problem when there is stuff like weapons only one class can use (ie bows, daggers).

[kamuimac]

You are so wrong and self-assuring in your perception (I struggle to call it "thinking") it doesn't even make sense to discuss any of your statements. It's your bubble and you are keeping it intact by all means necessary. Good luck in life.

Is he though ? There were well known memebers of wow streaming / YouTube community who were literaly making guides on how to ninjaloot. Why do you think Blizzard changed loot policy in pugs if it really was that uncommon as you claim

[Kookster]

Last time i saw a ninja Looter with ML was in wotlk, nearly 10 years ago. I don't know where this is coming from. The only chance to ninja nowadays is by just don't trade your worthless loot and it looks like it will be still a thing in BFA,

[Zeek Daniels]

Has blizzard said anything about items that are ilvl upgrades but dps/hps losses and if these items will be tradable? Because currently if something is higher ilvl than what you have in your bags you cannot trade it which absolutely sucks when a guild member needs that item.

[Blorgo]

At least we admit there are some and now they are no more. Effective and positive change. Successful move Blizzard. Good job. Great change.

What a great world we live in.
Why not just scrap loot all together? solves the problem as well. I mean we don't care it might cause new problems right?
Why not just shut down the servers? solves so many problems at once. genius.

If you had this "problem" in the first place, you had the chance of just joining a raidguild that uses PersoLoot. But that makes way too much sense.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

What a great world we live in.
Why not just scrap loot all together? solves the problem as well. I mean we don't care it might cause new problems right?
Why not just shut down the servers? solves so many problems at once. genius.

If you had this "problem" in the first place, you had the chance of just joining a raidguild that uses PersoLoot. But that makes way too much sense.

The good thing is I don't have to worry about it anymore. I actually didn't have this problem. Many others did and I look beyond the end of my nose at what is important. This is for the good of the game. It inreases the games health by taking away a tool for people to be toxic with. Very, very good change.

[Deleted]

@burek
Certain items never dropping will happen and will keep happening. We might speculate on a change in likelihood, but for that we would need to know how Blizzard allocates drop percentages and as far as I know they aren't publishing that.

Sure if your raidcomp has like no mail wearers, you have good chances of getting trash, but with a balanced raid comp ML helps minimizing waste overall. (Also daggers can be used by ferals, enhancement and DH (not sure on that one), but I understand that wasn't the point.)

[Mixxy]

The reason competitive guilds use ML has bugger all to do with what anyone prefers and entirely to do with being able to optimise gear distribution for maximum performance. Competitive people will always choose advantage over what they prefer, which ends up detracting from the gaming experience.

Let's just be honest about this: No one prefers seeing all the best loot consistently going to other people over getting their fair share for themselves. But we do it willingly because it's how you game the system. That's just a sign of a bad system.

I never said anything about competitive guilds. People have been saying this is a change made for the casual guilds. If the casual guilds aren't ALREADY using PL, that means the majority prefer ML.

And I'll go ahead and prove you a liar right now: I prefer seeing other people in my runs get gear first. I already know what I can do, I already know I can handle myself and perform well enough. Seeing other people get gear is preferable to me because it means I know they'll do better. They can survive being slower to get out of the fire, they can put out more damage while they slowly move from A to B... AND if I'm the worst-geared person in my run, I don't feel as bad if I die to a mechanic; because I'm not as big a percentage of the DPS as I could be.

So no. There are people who DO prefer seeing the best loot consistently go to others. It's only selfish people who are convinced that EVERYONE wants all their loot and wants it now.

[kamuimac]

Last time i saw a ninja Looter with ML was in wotlk, nearly 10 years ago. I don't know where this is coming from. The only chance to ninja nowadays is by just don't trade your worthless loot and it looks like it will be still a thing in BFA,

Why ? Its pretty obvious. Literaly 2 words answer. Loot councils. People were to efficient and to abusive. Its not coincidence that IT didnt happen when epgp / suicide kings were ruling in hardmodes. Loot councils didnt spread untill wod. And on legion almost all guilds were copying this model.

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It's okay guys, let's look at it from the bright side. Sure it's going to suck for all the decent guilds for a while, but good players adapt rather quickly. Meanwhile all the loudmouths screaming "good, no more toxic loot masters, finally I can raid" will get slapped hard with their own rainbow walls of bullshit because they will never get invited to decent guilds anyway and all the wannabe heroic guilds with abusive leadership will choke on their own greediness because all the players that join them will just take loot and leave so in the end, good guilds will endure just like they always did and all the other crowd will just become worse from their own greediness.

Define good guild. Because looking at playerbase as whole guild with even 1 mythic bos kill is mega hardcore one. Seeing how only top 5 percent do mythic raidning. The problem you are discussing is concerning maaaaye 30-40k people . Negligible seeing how mamy more raid with guilds .and most of people who it concerns are happy with it. Longest thread on topic had what ? 250 pages in 2 months ? Flying debackle had 1000 pages in 3 days. Most people are happy with this change only like 100-200 people here on forums complain

[shyguybman]

The only reason I don't like this is because there are people in my guild that win everything. They some how have RNG of the gods.

[davesurfer]

Why ? Its pretty obvious. Literaly 2 words answer. Loot councils. People were to efficient and to abusive. Its not coincidence that IT didnt happen when epgp / suicide kings were ruling in hardmodes. Loot councils didnt spread untill wod. And on legion almost all guilds were copying this model.

This is really not true at all. In fact my experience is opposite. We had loot councils in Vanilla, TBC and up until TOC. We then switched to Suicide Kings since we had a roster of about 40 who would want to go to 25 man. 10 man was loot council, but a tight group like that didn't need a formal council we knew what was best for raid.

[lappee]

it's amazing that people as dumb as you exist. If anything you're a testament to the idea that us beating darwinism was a bad thing.

Streamers won't be going anywhere, because that's how they make money.

The 4 guilds that people actually pay attention to and/or are in the world first race will manage just fine.

Personal loot is absolutely tradeable, sans azerite gear, and the small percentage of time that azerite gear drops I'm certain that those players will manage.

It's a non-issue for a non-intellectual.....which explains why you're so upset by it.

By dumb people you mean people who are factual then you better get your adjectives in order.

He never said streamers would be going anywhere, he stated that mythic raiders matter just as much if not more than other players due to the exposure wow gets from streamers (majority being mythic raiders).

The 4 guilds that are in WF race will manage, so will the rest of the hundreds of guilds that are against the change. Just because someone can deal with it doesn't mean they want to.

Personal loot isn't tradeable if its ilvl upgrade. I'll simplify it to you, if you have 40 ilvl weapon (or anything less) and you get 41 ilvl weapon then you can't trade it.

It is a change that people dislike and for a good number of reasons. Its simply a bad change overall.

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I totally get that. I really do. What the anti-PL crowd need to figure out though is that this is only an issue in a paradigm in which you have a choice to move gear around. If you take away that choice then you no longer have to worry about all that. You no longer have to choose between a better, more equitable gaming experience and a more successful gaming experience. If you get a gear upgrade, you get to feel good because you are able to contribute more.

Essentially what this change means is that Mythic guilds are going to end up having more evenly geared players with less of a gear disparity between your superstars and everyone else, which can only be a good thing.

Not having to choose just means not having the choice to do what would be good for the guild. People will feel BAD about getting ilvl upgrade that isn't actually upgrade instead of being able to trade it to someone who would use it.

Mythic guild raid teams are already evenly geared, change does nothing to it. What actually changes is that all the alts and basic heroic people will have the same gear. Not that anyone actually minds it, it isn't a problem at all since everyone does the same content. The problem is that people have no choice with the loot.

With PL you'll still be able to trade stuff and gear new characters quickly. The limitation on rapid gearing would generally only be early in the raid tier. So, for example, my hunter might get one high ilevel Haste/Vers ring which is useless to him, but from there on out I will be able to trade any other rings as long as I hang on to the high ilevel one.

Lastly, while it is 100% true that ML is better than PL at optimising gear distribution for maximum gearing up speed, it actually doesn't control that speed at all. That is because the speed of gearing up is dependent on a number of other factors (quantity of gear that drops, ilevel of gear, ease of killing bosses etc). And because ML allows you to funnel gear, in effect all that it actually accomplishes is creating a gear disparity between people in a group.

Gearing new characters with PL greatly depends on your group. Need X class or another of X class then you better hope your raid team isn't lacking on the same armor/weapon type, otherwise you need serious luck on gearing them fast. Not to even mention the ability for items to WF/TF resulting in even less items being tradeable. PL greatly diminishes the speed at which you can gear new characters that are needed for progress (since generally, if you need those specific classes, you don't have them in the raid team already)

Getting gear faster with ML directly influences on amount of bosses being killed, which in turn gives even more gear. The other factors can be removed all together since we can't control them in any way.
There isn't actually anything wrong with gear disparity between people in the same group if thats what they signed up for, its a choice people can make in order to kill bosses more efficiently (in turn getting more gear for everyone faster). For people who think ahead more than just that one loot lockout, its a good thing.

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Let's say you keep getting tank trinkets every week from guldan, even multiple ones, and the only way to get the caster ones was through bonus rolls. That happened to our raid. Even though there were like 6 casters and only 2 tanks. Good loot with a slightly less than optimal distribution is better than no good loot at all. And that is even a bigger problem when there is stuff like weapons only one class can use (ie bows, daggers).

Having PL doesn't remove RNG's ability to screw you over. With PL you can still get 0 trinkets, however if you get base trinket and next week the same guy gets WF trinket then you'd directly be at a loss of 1 trinket over ML.

PL simply is inferior to ML as a loot system, nothing can change that.