I expect M+ participation to drop off hard in BfA.

[Wvvtayy]

Why do I think this? There's a number of contributing factors

1. As I've mentioned before, the massive nerf to tank threat gen, making it so that every week feels like skittish week.

2. Massive nerfs to the aoe capabilities of most specs also making them more tedious and difficult.

And the biggest reason of all...

3. Massive nerf to titanforging chances, making repeat runs of high level keys not at all worth it because heroic raids are easier than +15s, drop WAY more gear, and drop better gear. Since farming them will no longer be worthwhile outside of the first few lockouts of a new tier, almost everybody will simply do one per week for the chest and that's it.

Edit: Since people can't read, I'm going to clarify this here. The point I'm making about the thread isn't about how much you or I personally enjoy M+, I'm sure a lot of people on here love the changes, but keep in mind the people who post here tend to be far better at the game than 99% of people. The thread is about overall participation within the playerbase dropping off. Ghostcrawler said it himself in regards to the Cataclysm heroics being hard then subsequently nerfed. When content is too hard for people, most people don't "git gud", they simply quit the game or don't do the difficult content.

[Vanhyali]

Why do I think this? There's a number of contributing factors

1. As I've mentioned before, the massive nerf to tank threat gen, making it so that every week feels like skittish week.

2. Massive nerfs to the aoe capabilities of most specs also making them more tedious and difficult.

Factor 1 and 2 counters each other though. And the massive tank threat nerf was buffed slightly again after the huge backlash. In all i don't think the participation will drop much if any at all.

[Nutri]

How about M+ will as a way of means to get gear for people that don't (want to or can't) raid?

[Wvvtayy]

Factor 1 and 2 counters each other though. And the massive tank threat nerf was buffed slightly again after the huge backlash. In all i don't think the participation will drop much if any at all.

I didn't know they rebuffed tank threat, but even if that's the case, reason 3 is a far bigger problem than the first two

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How about M+ will as a way of means to get gear for people that don't (want to or can't) raid?

Heroic is puggable, so there's no reason you CANT raid, but for the tiny minority that doesn't want to for whatever reason I guess it's not as much of an issue, but the nerf to Titanforge chances I imagine will make people get bored pretty quickly once they're fully geared.

[secondratetech]

I think there will be a drop in participation but not for the reasons you listed.

Mostly because the rewards aren't going to be as good (similar to your line item 3). The weekly treasure chest rewards are significantly higher and are grouped into brackets. Meaning people will end up doing 1 run a week within their bracket to get their 1-3 lottery weekly items, which include Azure pieces.

Also because the affixes aren't fun. They are punishing opposed to rewarding/fun. I'd rather see an affix where all players and NPCs have perma bloodlust for the week or all monsters are in execute range; mobs health and damage can still be scaled up to make it challenging. It would certainly get players to do those runs & open up more encounters for other classes to shine.

[Nikkaszal]

If you'd actually tried tanking in the beta right now, you'd see that threat gen is still barely noticeable.

If you're JUST tanking a single mob actively and relying entirely on your AoE to hold everything, and someone else is burning a different target hard... yeah, you'll see threat issues. If you tab target and spread threat around - or even better, mark kill targets - you won't even notice the threat nerf.

It's nothing like Skittish.

[VinceVega]

1. I think that is good. You have to think about what you are doing now. And as it is now on Beta you just can't pop all you CDs the instant you pull. After nobody will notice it really.

2. Also think that is good. Running through a dungeon and making everthing explode like crazy is more in the Diablo resort.

3. Two things everybody cried about in legion 1. Legendarys 2. RNG with Titanforging. I am SO glad that stuff is gone. I once got lucky wtih a twink and surpassed my main in ILvl TWO weeks after reching max Level.

I don't thin participation will go down as many of us don'Ät do Mythic+ just for gear but because of the challenge (look at Mage Tower, you don't get anything game relevant)

[Wvvtayy]

If you'd actually tried tanking in the beta right now, you'd see that threat gen is still barely noticeable.

If you're JUST tanking a single mob actively and relying entirely on your AoE to hold everything, and someone else is burning a different target hard... yeah, you'll see threat issues. If you tab target and spread threat around - or even better, mark kill targets - you won't even notice the threat nerf.

It's nothing like Skittish.

Again, that's true if you're running them with your guild or a group of skilled friends, but the vast majority of m+ runs are done in pugs. Pugging +15s are hit and miss right now, and that's fine, they're not supposed to be easy, but with these changes pugging will go from hit and miss to not even worth attempting

[Unholyground]

If you'd actually tried tanking in the beta right now, you'd see that threat gen is still barely noticeable.

If you're JUST tanking a single mob actively and relying entirely on your AoE to hold everything, and someone else is burning a different target hard... yeah, you'll see threat issues. If you tab target and spread threat around - or even better, mark kill targets - you won't even notice the threat nerf.

It's nothing like Skittish.

If someone pulls because of their dps they are going to die like a bitch, just like in the olden days of WoW I will let them die and get that spicy repair bill up.

[Ifeanychukwu]

All the points you listed are reasons why I think M+ will do better. Having to actually think about threat generation is so much more fun than how it is currently, skittish weeks are some of my favorite even for this reason. Spamming AoE is pretty boring imo as well, every dungeon feels the same when you go about clearing them all the same way. Couldn't be happier for titanforging to be reigned in as well. I've always had shit RNG and falling behind in gearing is never fun simply because you just never get any TF procs.

I think M+ will be in the best state it's been since being released. The way you talk about it makes me think M+ just isn't for you, at least not the more difficult keys. Sounds like you want to be able to just steamroll through the content which I'm sure will happen eventually regardless thanks to gear but having things be a little more difficult at least for a while will be good for the game I think.

[Wvvtayy]

All the points you listed are reasons why I think M+ will do better. Having to actually think about threat generation is so much more fun than how it is currently, skittish weeks are some of my favorite even for this reason. Spamming AoE is pretty boring imo as well, every dungeon feels the same when you go about clearing them all the same way. Couldn't be happier for titanforging to be reigned in as well. I've always had shit RNG and falling behind in gearing is never fun simply because you just never get any TF procs.

I think M+ will be in the best state it's been since being released. The way you talk about it makes me think M+ just isn't for you, at least not the more difficult keys. Sounds like you want to be able to just steamroll through the content which I'm sure will happen eventually regardless thanks to gear but having things be a little more difficult at least for a while will be good for the game I think.

You misunderstand. The topic isn't about your, or my personal enjoyment of m+. The thread is about participation levels.

[salate]

Meh, people will adapt anyway. That was like... since launch.
Stuff was hard, people went "git gud mode" and after 200 wipes became "gud" and continued their journey with adding something new to their game rotation.
Personally I'd like supa cool items added to each instance and more coolish world drop items.
the world is so boring if there is no world drops

[fengosa]

I disagree. The rewards are going to keep people running it, specifically at the start of new raid tiers when the rewards are a strong boon.

[Izenhart]

For someone who doesn't even play Beta you sure seem to be certain of a lot of things.

1 - It wasn't a massive threat. Anyone playing beta would know this. The only time it is noticeable is if it's Skittish week, and you're a brainless dpshog and unload all your burst as soon as the pull comes.

2 - "nerfing aoe capabilities" implies the m+ of BfA were designed for a certain amount of aoe, which was then "massively nerfed". Explain to me how is this the case?

Do you have any data? any proof? stats?

Do you think Blizzard looked at people's AoE dps, developed the dungeons for M+ around that, then "massively nerfed aoe capabilities" right after?

BfA cannot be worse because you have nerfed aoe if the dungeons weren't developed for that amount of aoe in the first place. I don't even know how you came to this complaint other than for the sake of being a contrarian.

3 - Is "massive" your fetish word? All that was said was "we're planning of reducing the frequency with which items can titanforge".

And it's a good thing. If you're doing content giving you 330ilvl why are you entitled to a 360 piece of gear? Enough of those + mythic+ cache (also giving you gear of ilvl that you don't deserve) and you'll be able to get invited to content requiring an ilvl that you didn't actually do nor prove to be able to, you just got lucky and inflated your ilvl.

[Deleted]

Doubtful. People who pushed beyond 15 before will continue to do so in BfA, those who merely ran for weekly will continue to do so as well. If anything I expect the participation to increase due to more optimized dungeons (actually designed with M+ in mind this time around) and MDI increasing its popularity.

I find it far more enjoyable than raiding, and given the number of people who complain about not having the time to raid, m+ should be perfect for them as you can make a run within an hour at almost any time of the day.

[Wvvtayy]

Meh, people will adapt anyway. That was like... since launch.
Stuff was hard, people went "git gud mode" and after 200 wipes became "gud" and continued their journey with adding something new to their game rotation.
Personally I'd like supa cool items added to each instance and more coolish world drop items.
the world is so boring if there is no world drops

That's the thing. Ghostcrawler said it himself in regards to the Cataclysm heroics being hard then subsequently nerfed. When content is too hard for people, most people don't "git gud", they simply quit the game or don't do the difficult content.

[Talvindius]

I don't think many people will agree with OP. Silly thread tbh, OP is mistakenly thinking people will shy from a challenge.

Doubt it.

[Wvvtayy]

Doubtful. People who pushed beyond 15 before will continue to do so in BfA, those who merely ran for weekly will continue to do so as well. If anything I expect the participation to increase due to more optimized dungeons (actually designed with M+ in mind this time around) and MDI increasing its popularity.

I find it far more enjoyable than raiding, and given the number of people who complain about not having the time to raid, m+ should be perfect for them as you can make a run within an hour at almost any time of the day.

Again, being unable to raid simply isn't a thing anymore with the group finder. I can get on at 4am on a Sunday and find a group for heroic antorus within 5 minutes. There's just the extremely small fringe group of people who hate raiding and love m+.

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I don't think many people will agree with OP. Silly thread tbh, OP is mistakenly thinking people will shy from a challenge.

Doubt it.

Then why did Ghostcrawler himself say that they do? When players find content that appears too hard for them, most will try it once and never do it again.

[Deleted]

That's the thing. Ghostcrawler said it himself in regards to the Cataclysm heroics being hard then subsequently nerfed. When content is too hard for people, most people don't "git gud", they simply quit the game or don't do the difficult content.

Then let them not do the content? There has never been more options in terms of challenge ever before, especially in dungeons as you can play literally any difficulty you like. The problem in cataclysm wasn't that the dungeons were difficult, it's that there wasn't an easier option for those who didn't like the challenge.

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Again, being unable to raid simply isn't a thing anymore with the group finder. I can get on at 4am on a Sunday and find a group for heroic antorus within 5 minutes. There's just the extremely small fringe group of people who hate raiding and love m+.

And plenty of people who enjoy both. So I really don't see the problem you're trying to bring up?

[Ifeanychukwu]

You misunderstand. The topic isn't about your, or my personal enjoyment of m+. The thread is about participation levels.

Well so far all the feedback I've seen on threat changes have been positive and titanforging has been almost universally hated since the launch of Legion. The AoE bit is definitely personal opinion but I feel that trimming down will be beneficial in the long run. But I wouldn't expect much, they've said they were going to cut down on mindlessly AoE'ing through dungeons for years and years now but it always ends up the same by the end of the first raid tier.