I expect M+ participation to drop off hard in BfA.

[Deleted]

mythic + should be fine until certain specs will reach a benchmark where no one will pick them because they cant do aoe, single target and survive encounters but the question is, at what point will the benchmark occur?

[zaino]

Since Raid loot is getting shafted in the form of personal loot players will continue to run mythic + to supplement Raid drops (or lack therof) as well as warmode since justice and valor gear have long been thrown to the wayside.

Players will continue to run m+ as long as it provides solid gear compared to what they have.

[dacoolist]

It is NOTHING like that at all. Threat is basically back to MoP numbers. Remember how it was then? Basically still non-existent issue. Just can't blow a kiss at a mob and run away from it while the DPS nuke it down.

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Cata went from 300% threat to 500%. BFA will be 400%, but with FAR higher DPS from tanks, so it should be higher tank threat than Cata

I'll take my 5000% back my bad - I haven't tanked since Cata ( like actual content: Raid/Myth+ ) , but 400% seems like a ton to me... no idea why anyone would be mad with that threat% IMO.

Thanks for the info Beelgers

[Wvvtayy]

Thank you for volunteering to represent the whole player base. You are a true hero.

On a serious note, all of your points are terrible.

1) From people actually playing the beta, apparently the threat isn't that bad, worst case it will be something people will eventually learn to deal with.

2) They already said they'd tune m+ based on power levels (honestly, you think blizz would strip power from classes and leave the content at the same difficulty? It might take a few passes but it will get there.

3) I believe you got this lovely overstatement from this quote: "If anything the odds for Warforged and Titanforged may need to be tweaked a little bit". Assuming you don't have any other sources (which you likely don't), turning that quote into "people won't play because rewards are terrible" is quite the leap.

I'm so tired of the "WoD 2.0" attitude. If Legion wasn't example enough that they learned from WoD, there is always the fact that they are already ahead of WoD just by implementing the systems that were so successful in Legion (m+, world quests). How can you possibly say this is "WoD 2.0" when it is already nothing like it? The ONLY thing you could possibly fear is content drought, but the Legion systems and BfA systems they already announced already help to avoid that, not to mention the xpac hasn't even launched and you have no idea what their timeline is going to look like yet.

OP is just a miserable pessimist out to spread doom and gloom.

Blizzard doesn't learn from their mistakes my dude. MoP was a great expansion that many saw as "learning from their mistakes of Cataclysm" , and then we got that steamy pile of dog shit known as WoD. Legion has been great, but Blizzard never leaves well enough alone.

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You have no clue what you're talking about in regards to the whole playerbase. You're one insecure, narcissistic person that's desperately trying to paint a negative picture of the next expansion with your frail mental gymnastics. You post no data, no statistics, nothing except your opinion. No one cares about your predictions, Ms. Chleo. Don't quit your day job.

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He mistakes his feelings for the feelings of the whole playerbase. Textbook narcissism.

Thank you so much for your diagnosis, Doctor. I had no idea we had an esteemed psychiatrist here on MMOC!

[skumnasty]

Blizzard doesn't learn from their mistakes my dude. MoP was a great expansion that many saw as "learning from their mistakes of Cataclysm" , and then we got that steamy pile of dog shit known as WoD. Legion has been great, but Blizzard never leaves well enough alone.

I'm glad that is the 1 thing you chose out of my entire post that also countered every point you made.

Well played.

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Since Raid loot is getting shafted in the form of personal loot players will continue to run mythic + to supplement Raid drops (or lack therof) as well as warmode since justice and valor gear have long been thrown to the wayside.

Players will continue to run m+ as long as it provides solid gear compared to what they have.

Raid loot is not getting "shafted" for the majority of the playerbase, bad point. Agreed on everything else.

[Pigglix]

Meh, i'll have tricks for the tank so i can still go mongo.

Now, i think m+ will remain popular, if not more, with the weekly chest rewarding a piece of heroic/mythic raiding

[Wvvtayy]

Since Raid loot is getting shafted in the form of personal loot players will continue to run mythic + to supplement Raid drops (or lack therof) as well as warmode since justice and valor gear have long been thrown to the wayside.

Players will continue to run m+ as long as it provides solid gear compared to what they have.

And it won't. It doesn't take long at all to get fully heroic geared especially if you're doing both heroic and mythic, and PL drops exactly the same amount of loot as ML

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I'm glad that is the 1 thing you chose out of my entire post that also countered every point you made.

Well played.

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Raid loot is not getting "shafted" for the majority of the playerbase, bad point. Agreed on everything else.

I'll counter another point! Anyone who has played beta knows firsthand that WF/TF chances have been DRAMATICALLY nerfed.

[skumnasty]

I'll counter another point! Anyone who has played beta knows firsthand that WF/TF chances have been DRAMATICALLY nerfed.

Source(s)? Evidence? Statistics?

Or are we just going on another mislead "gut feeling" here like practically all of your points?

[beelgers]

And it won't. It doesn't take long at all to get fully heroic geared especially if you're doing both heroic and mythic, and PL drops exactly the same amount of loot as ML

Actually, PL drops more if I remember correctly. It is just worse in the long run as it gears the team much more inefficiently.

[Azyure]

Why do I think this? There's a number of contributing factors

1. As I've mentioned before, the massive nerf to tank threat gen, making it so that every week feels like skittish week.

2. Massive nerfs to the aoe capabilities of most specs also making them more tedious and difficult.

And the biggest reason of all...

3. Massive nerf to titanforging chances, making repeat runs of high level keys not at all worth it because heroic raids are easier than +15s, drop WAY more gear, and drop better gear. Since farming them will no longer be worthwhile outside of the first few lockouts of a new tier, almost everybody will simply do one per week for the chest and that's it.

Edit: Since people can't read, I'm going to clarify this here. The point I'm making about the thread isn't about how much you or I personally enjoy M+, I'm sure a lot of people on here love the changes, but keep in mind the people who post here tend to be far better at the game than 99% of people. The thread is about overall participation within the playerbase dropping off. Ghostcrawler said it himself in regards to the Cataclysm heroics being hard then subsequently nerfed. When content is too hard for people, most people don't "git gud", they simply quit the game or don't do the difficult content.

All of your arguments boil down to this: "It's not easy enough to be worth doing".
What about the people that just plain prefer M+ to raiding, or that M+ is fun to do while waiting for raid resets?
Also, your premise that the people that post here are better, is laughable.

[Clozer]

heroic is cleared in 2 hours... mhm then what? ye, you do m+ in your freetime. Since it only requires 5 people, most of the time you can just log in and 10 minutes later you start your dungeon. Easily the best feature added in ages.

[Nurasu]

Source(s)? Evidence? Statistics?

Or are we just going on another mislead "gut feeling" here like practically all of your points?

I don't have an exact source, but they have said in at least 3 interviews that Titanforging was too common in Legion and that they'd be reigning it in. I don't know if that happened on beta or not, but no one should be surprised.

[Archmage Alodi]

Why do people keep bringing up the MDI, that has nothing to do with overall participation in M+.

Obvious Troll.

[Nyel]

No legendaries anymore = less Mythic+ participation. Easy as that. They removed the biggest motivation for M+.

[Archmage Alodi]

I don't have an exact source, but they have said in at least 3 interviews that Titanforging was too common in Legion and that they'd be reigning it in. I don't know if that happened on beta or not, but no one should be surprised.

They made 4 gear slots unable to TF. That's the nerf to TFing not the chance that items have to TF.

[beelgers]

They made 4 gear slots unable to TF. That's the nerf to TFing not the chance that items have to TF.

They actually did say that the chance to TF was going to be reduced. Don't know that means "DRAMATICALLY", but it is reduced.

[Wvvtayy]

They made 4 gear slots unable to TF. That's the nerf to TFing not the chance that items have to TF.

This is what happens when people who haven't played beta try to pretend they know what's actually happening

[Deleted]

I hope you realize that the community nowadays is different than in vanilla, and likely the one who is going to be yelled at and blamed for bad DPS pulling threat is you, the tank.

The thing is this just means tanks are likely to keep participating but in groups made up of friends/guild mates. This is exactly what I do because it's tiresome watching things like people body pulling multiple groups that everyone skips in DHT to then be told you are shit tank and can't hold threat.

I'm sure someone will come along and explain the solution being making hunters or shamans tanks though, somehow... Almost as if having more responsibility, especially in a toxic environment is offputting for a lot of people.

[Helltribute]

For someone who doesn't even play Beta you sure seem to be certain of a lot of things.

1 - It wasn't a massive threat. Anyone playing beta would know this. The only time it is noticeable is if it's Skittish week, and you're a brainless dpshog and unload all your burst as soon as the pull comes.

2 - "nerfing aoe capabilities" implies the m+ of BfA were designed for a certain amount of aoe, which was then "massively nerfed". Explain to me how is this the case?

Do you have any data? any proof? stats?

Do you think Blizzard looked at people's AoE dps, developed the dungeons for M+ around that, then "massively nerfed aoe capabilities" right after?

BfA cannot be worse because you have nerfed aoe if the dungeons weren't developed for that amount of aoe in the first place. I don't even know how you came to this complaint other than for the sake of being a contrarian.

3 - Is "massive" your fetish word? All that was said was "we're planning of reducing the frequency with which items can titanforge".

And it's a good thing. If you're doing content giving you 330ilvl why are you entitled to a 360 piece of gear? Enough of those + mythic+ cache (also giving you gear of ilvl that you don't deserve) and you'll be able to get invited to content requiring an ilvl that you didn't actually do nor prove to be able to, you just got lucky and inflated your ilvl.

best reply in thread that wasn't countered btw, this guy knows what he's saying.

[ItsTiddles]

Honest question for the OP. Have you played beta? Have you ever enjoyed any other expansion of wow, or any other game in general? Either you're the most pessimistic person in the world who can't be pleased or you're reading the occasional disappointment thread and playing word vomit with their opinions.

As someone who is active for maybe 2 hours or so a week on beta doing m+, the tank threat is only noticeable for the first 2 or so seconds on a big aoe pack if the dps aren't using their brains. Oddly enough, that can happen on live, too! As for titanforge chance, it's a good change. However, it's far from massive. I've seen plenty of wf/tf loot and equipped plenty of it myself.

The participation at the beginning should skyrocket given the access to heroic raid ilvl loot the first week heroic raid loot is available. You can only clear heroic once. You have far better odds in m+ for the first few weeks. The only decline I expect to see is high key pushers given the amount of time people will be spending with all the "beginning of xpac" content to do first. However, I don't expect the decline to stay once gearing slows down and progression finishes for plenty of people.