Mega-Thread: Mueller investigation

[cubby]

Diplomatically and economically are the right answers.

Some will probably argue militarily, but that's not in anyone's best interests outside of chest thumpers looking to justify their own sense of self worth on the accomplishments of others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsPDT5qHtZ4

Agreed. No military at all. Economically seems to be the only way. I wish we could find a way to get Putin's assets.

[Milchshake]

One interesting question I've been thinking about, assuming it comes out clearly that Russia interfered AND did so to benefit Trump AND Trump knew about it:

How do we really punish Russia?

Is cutting them off from the internet an option?

It would really clean up gamer spaces for starters.

[Thekri]

Agreed. No military at all. Economically seems to be the only way. I wish we could find a way to get Putin's assets.

Well... not no military at all. We are already in a de facto cyber war, and that might ramp up quite a lot. The terrifying part about that is that cyber wars don't really have a limit in how much real world damage they can do. Right now we have been mutually probing each other's financial and physical infrastructure systems, but nobody has pulled the trigger yet on taking anything down. Russia has also done some experiments on inventing major news items like attacks and riots, and getting a real reaction going before it can be confirmed. This is also potentially devastating.

[Pazazu]

Agreed. No military at all. Economically seems to be the only way. I wish we could find a way to get Putin's assets.

Might be playing one devil against another, but getting in with China and the Belt and Road Initiative might be one way to do it. Some of the project will be expanding into areas of Russia (through Mongolia and also through Kazakhstan). If both routes ended in those two respective countries (ending at Astana and Ulaanbaatar respectively), it would likely wind up hurting the initiative's expansions with Russia proper, forcing Russia to deal in a more direct fashion with two intermediary countries. Might benefit both of them more in the long run as well if they have more control in dealings with Russian trade and negotiations.

[cubby]

Is cutting them off from the internet an option?

It would really clean up gamer spaces for starters.

Ok - yes, that should be first. Set them up like China - give them only intranet access.

[cubby]

Well... not no military at all. We are already in a de facto cyber war, and that might ramp up quite a lot. The terrifying part about that is that cyber wars don't really have a limit in how much real world damage they can do. Right now we have been mutually probing each other's financial and physical infrastructure systems, but nobody has pulled the trigger yet on taking anything down. Russia has also done some experiments on inventing major news items like attacks and riots, and getting a real reaction going before it can be confirmed. This is also potentially devastating.

The Cyber War is very frightening. I feel like we've been the victim more than the culprit. But I'm not very aware of what the U.S.'s capabilities are in this arena - I would assume it's immense.

Agreed re no direct military action/battle/war.

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Well the money used most likely did not come directly from the state but rather through the various oligarchs. Seize all their assets in the US and allied countries. That's the simple response.

I do like that option. Use the seized funds (not frozen, seized) for direct bolstering of our voting security. They might not have found a way to affect direct votes yet, but they are looking. That's already been confirmed.

[Pazazu]

Ultimately we all need to invest far more seriously in education. Someone linked the other day an article with a poll where one in three young millennials in the US were not 100% sure the earth is round ffs. We can never police and censor the media adequately without damaging innovation and useful political discourse. What we need is people to think more. Of course good luck convincing politicians to spend money to immunize the people against their bullshit.

Back when I lived in Ohio (the shithole that it was and still is), there was a push on the state level to introduce critical thinking classes in middle and high school to replace a lot of the cancelled arts and music classes that lacked funding. It failed by a small margin if I recall correctly, but didn't get brought back up again after some state Congressmen got tossed in jail.

[Pazazu]

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

Russia is the lesser evil. The Road is the greatest threat to western values.

To Western economies, yes. Values, no. I'm not pro China spreading influence, but to the other countries that would benefit from it, I cannot help but concede, considering the West is offering no opportunities to many of these countries that I've lived in over the years (hell, how many of our politicians can even name 1/3 of the -stan countries or even know where Mongolia is).

[cubby]

Ultimately we all need to invest far more seriously in education. Someone linked the other day an article with a poll where one in three young millennials in the US were not 100% sure the earth is round ffs. We can never police and censor the media adequately without damaging innovation and useful political discourse. What we need is people to think more. Of course good luck convincing politicians to spend money to immunize the people against their bullshit.

This is very well said. I could not agree more. Education is, for the most part, the silver bullet.

[Huehuecoyotl]

One interesting question I've been thinking about, assuming it comes out clearly that Russia interfered AND did so to benefit Trump AND Trump knew about it:

How do we really punish Russia?

Put Trump in charge of it?

[cubby]

That's ultimately secondary. The scary part is that a significant number of voters in the US do not care if someone meddled as long as their side won.

That is also important, but I would disagree regarding priority. If they find a way to literally change votes without our knowledge, that's the ballgame.

The most important part of my high school education was debate. Not that debate was part of the curriculum, I was just in a private school that collected trophy and I captained the debate team. I learned far more there than I did in any class. Debate should be a core subject for all students.

Lol, agreed - and as a little bit of irony, so was I re Debate. Got a college scholarship for it, even. Thought it was awesome I was being paid to argue.

And it should be a core subject. So many things we fuck up in this country re education. Civics, just a clear "for instance".

[Thekri]

The Cyber War is very frightening. I feel like we've been the victim more than the culprit. But I'm not very aware of what the U.S.'s capabilities are in this arena - I would assume it's immense.

Agreed re no direct military action/battle/war.

Possibly, I don't think there is any way to know for certain how much we do "offensively", because most of our rivals are far less transparent. Remember when Skroe was railing about China stealing our latest tech via a cyber attack? The odds of China ever admitting it if we did the same to them are basically non-existent. Without things like the Mueller investigation we wouldn't have any idea what Russia was doing, and the Mueller investigation could not exist in places like China or Russia.


Regardless of what happens in this case, the cyber threat isn't going away, and it is going to get a lot worse. I might legitimately recommend a cyber force as a department of the military, rather then the Space force. It won't look like any other branch of the military, but the war has already started there.

[cubby]

Possibly, I don't think there is any way to know for certain how much we do "offensively", because most of our rivals are far less transparent. Remember when Skroe was railing about China stealing our latest tech via a cyber attack? The odds of China ever admitting it if we did the same to them are basically non-existent. Without things like the Mueller investigation we wouldn't have any idea what Russia was doing, and the Mueller investigation could not exist in places like China or Russia.

This is a very good point. Obviously, we wouldn't say anything. And you're right that China wouldn't admit to being infiltrated. So I guess it's like the CIA, we only hear about the mistakes. I would hope/assume that the U.S. does bring a good game.

Regardless of what happens in this case, the cyber threat isn't going away, and it is going to get a lot worse. I might legitimately recommend a cyber force as a department of the military, rather then the Space force. It won't look like any other branch of the military, but the war has already started there.

I think we need the Cyber Force much more than the Space Force. Although given the originations of the NSA, we might already have one.

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The most important part is not even arguing. It's having to research arguments for both sides of the topic, time and again, even for topics were you personally strongly identify with one side.
Though I wonder if with how loaded things are on both sides nowadays, how would people react to asking something like this from kids. What would happen if a kid in a very liberal community went home and told their parents how their teacher asked them to argue against abortion. And how would the reverse go . . .

Cannot agree more. Researching and knowing both sides was key to winning in debate, and it certainly made me a more objective person when it came to issues I was passionate about.

Interesting. It would depend, I think and as always, on the parents. For me, I would see the reasoning for it. Other parents perhaps not so much, because they wouldn't see it objectively - as a learning/thought exercise.

[PACOX]

How do we really punish Russia?

Economically. Russia didn't want Clinton in office because if one thing she was good knowing how to operate at the state level, whether you agree with her decisions or not. Russia is (maybe was) hurting economy and there's no way the world would've let Russia off the hook with Clinton behind the desk.




Russia got very good at cyber warfare because its cheap, low key, effective, and old heads don't know how to deal with it. It's their only real way to fight back against sanctions but Obama and the executive departments already had a plan for it...they just needed to pass on the buck to the next leader. She would have sanctioned the R out Russia and been proactive against them on the cyber battlefield.

In essence the punishment was ready to go (due to Russia cyber espionage in general). Russia knew it needed to double down on Trump because we all knew he couldn't keep up with Russia's long game, which is to regain status in the world by undermining the US.

Can't really quote you from my phone but the US has several divisions to combat cyber threats. On the grand scheme, we have the most capable cyber assets in the world. What we don't have is a clear defined enough cyber doctrine or backing from Congress to meet our full potential. The US invented cyber warfare but the Russians perfected it.

[Pazazu]

Can't really quote you from my phone but the US has several divisions to combat cyber threats. On the grand scheme, we have the most capable cyber assets in the world. What we don't have is a clear defined enough cyber doctrine or backing from Congress to meet our full potential. The US invented cyber warfare but the Russians perfected it.

Boy, it sure would be nice to have a Cybersecurity Coordinator at the White House . . . oh wait, we did have one. Probably taken over by the Warhawk Walrus.

[Shalcker]

Well the money used most likely did not come directly from the state but rather through the various oligarchs. Seize all their assets in the US and allied countries. That's the simple response.

Just sign extradition treaty with Russia if you want to get rid of oligarchs; that also gets US Snowden.

[Deleted]

hang on are these 12 from that thing that was mentioned months ago?

[Bdatik]

hang on are these 12 from that thing that was mentioned months ago?

No they're not.

[Deleted]

No they're not.

oh yea but it was mentioned i didnt mean the social media folk ive bothered to google now

https://twitter.com/MeetThePress/sta...32526463569920

from march

timing of this is political as fuck.

[Poopymonster]

Did someone pull a supertony?

Stupidtony death threated a particular poster. This induhvidual wanted blanket murders.