As Horde, i have no motivation to hate the alliance

[bloodmoth13]

That is the problem, the alliance Needs to be the one who fights back and ACtually starts winning ANY battle, so far Despite lroewise alliance have 5-1 the numbers of horde races, atleast Equel(if not more mages) More tech(gnomes and dreanie vs goblin) They somehow always get their teeth kick in.
BFA would ahve been a place the alliance could start he war, which would give the horde a reason to Not be the bad guy for ones., But the alliance wont do that as, they are clearly the More inteligent and "good" guys of the story.

The hordes have NO reason to start the war, Sylvanas does, but orcs,turaen, trolls, blood elves, pandaren have NO reason for it.

sylvanas doesnt even have a reason, at least not in the way she does it. i said it before, but the story would make PERFECT sense if the alliance launched the attack on lordaeron without any provocation, there are a number of compelling reasons to do this! I remember not long ago the alliance players on this forum insisting that the alliance should retake lordaeron, its something the alliance actually wants, and they have a backlog of reasons to instigate a war. Horde need to be on the defensive for a change, the only thing i want changed is the burning of teldrassil to be the hordes reaction to the battle for lordaeron. that would fix literally every issue i have with this story so far.

[xcitng]

#3. Play Horde and have no motivation for me, my care for the faction wars went with the identity of each server (cross realm).

[Kokolums]

You will fight to protect Sylvanas because she is the key to defeating the Void. if Sylvanas falls, the Void will win.

[Verdugo]

You will fight to protect Sylvanas because she is the key to defeating the Void. if Sylvanas falls, the Void will win.

Sylvanas is the key to all of this, if we get Sylvanas working. Cause she's a funnier character than we ever had in the games.

[Super Dickmann]

Sylvanas is the key to all of this, if we get Sylvanas working. Cause she's a funnier character than we ever had in the games.

If Sylvanas survives and is still Warchief at the end of BFA, I will never stop laughing at the usual suspects here. It's not going to happen, but still.

[prwraith]

If they'd hire some qualified writers. (Golden is not a qualified writer)

The two factions would probably have reason to hate each other. As it is there is literally no reason for the alliance to hate the horde, nor the horde the alliance. That pathetic broken shore cinematic was not a driving force for anything.

[Mumba]

Superfast fanfic

Genn hates Sylvanas and the Forsaken. Genn convinces Calia that she is the rightful ruler of Lordaeron. Genn convinces most of the leaders and the population that Lordaeron belongs to the Alliance and that Sylvanas is a threat. Anduin, Velen, Malfurion and the other carebears are unable to calm the uprising and has no other option than to attack the Forsaken.

Sylvanas retaliates by attacking Tendrassil and now it doesn't completely stupid to burn down the tree.


Really, after cooperating in Mists, WoD and Legion I just don't see any reason to start a new war when both factions should be on their knees from the Burning Legion. The worst part is that I'm worried that everything will be blamed on "mind controlling old gods and mind altering Azerite".

[Nathasil]

Superfast fanfic

Genn hates Sylvanas and the Forsaken. Genn convinces Calia that she is the rightful ruler of Lordaeron. Genn convinces most of the leaders and the population that Lordaeron belongs to the Alliance and that Sylvanas is a threat. Anduin, Velen, Malfurion and the other carebears are unable to calm the uprising and has no other option than to attack the Forsaken.

Sylvanas retaliates by attacking Tendrassil and now it doesn't completely stupid to burn down the tree.


Really, after cooperating in Mists, WoD and Legion I just don't see any reason to start a new war when both factions should be on their knees from the Burning Legion. The worst part is that I'm worried that everything will be blamed on "mind controlling old gods and mind altering Azerite".

You do not even have to go this far, really. You are putting the objective blame on Genn. Many Alliance-Players would be cool with this as his reasons to hate Sylvanas are justified, but it is still unecessary. After BtS we know there is a major cross-faction-healer-meeting in Silithus. Azerite is a volatile substance. Just let it explode for no reason at all and OF COURSE everybody would blame Sylvanas and the Alliance would attack.

Really, there would have been so many ways to start this war in a way that does not totally put the blame on one person only...it is obvious that Blizzard went the route they went because they WANTED to put the blame on Sylvanas. There is no other way this makes any sense as the story was just naturally throwing other possible narratives at your face.

Anyway: 100% agree with your conclusion.

---

As for the Shatterspear (Trolls in Darkshore)...you realize they used Horde weapons to capture Night Elves, put them in cages and torture them to death long before they were a target of "Night Elven aggression", right? Are you a fan of that? You are a fan of putting people into cages and torturing them to death out of racial motives? That's good to know. There are a multitude of organizations around the world you may consider joining, then.
Honestly: Argueing the Shatterspear were in any way, shape or form the "victims" in this is so disgusting it does not really deserve a comment....and it probably would have been better if i had not given any.

Also, i keep seeing that argument "The Alliance attacked our peaceful miners first!" - that's just false. The Alliance sent SPIES into the camps. These spies did not hurt anybody...neither in-game by watching them, nor by anything the quest-text indicates. The Alliance PC is send to kill miners, yes, but at the same time the Horde PC is send to kill those "peaceful" spies. Silithus is a neutral zone...why does the Horde have the right to kill Alliance spies there, but Alliance does not have the right to kill miners that are actually HURTING Azeroth? Well, that depends:
- If you have your head up your arse you will say "Because...............FOR THE HORDE!"
- If you actually look objectively at the situation you will say "Well, actually none of this really makes any sense for me as a PC, no matter what color my tabard has...."

[Friendlyimmolation]

You do not even have to go this far, really. You are putting the objective blame on Genn. Many Alliance-Players would be cool with this as his reasons to hate Sylvanas are justified, but it is still unecessary. After BtS we know there is a major cross-faction-healer-meeting in Silithus. Azerite is a volatile substance. Just let it explode for no reason at all and OF COURSE everybody would blame Sylvanas and the Alliance would attack.

Really, there would have been so many ways to start this war in a way that does not totally put the blame on one person only...it is obvious that Blizzard went the route they went because they WANTED to put the blame on Sylvanas. There is no other way this makes any sense as the story was just naturally throwing other possible narratives at your face.

Anyway: 100% agree with your conclusion.

---

As for the Shatterspear (Trolls in Darkshore)...you realize they used Horde weapons to capture Night Elves, put them in cages and torture them to death long before they were a target of "Night Elven aggression", right? Are you a fan of that? You are a fan of putting people into cages and torturing them to death out of racial motives? That's good to know. There are a multitude of organizations around the world you may consider joining, then.
Honestly: Argueing the Shatterspear were in any way, shape or form the "victims" in this is so disgusting it does not really deserve a comment....and it probably would have been better if i had not given any.

Also, i keep seeing that argument "The Alliance attacked our peaceful miners first!" - that's just false. The Alliance sent SPIES into the camps. These spies did not hurt anybody...neither in-game by watching them, nor by anything the quest-text indicates. The Alliance PC is send to kill miners, yes, but at the same time the Horde PC is send to kill those "peaceful" spies. Silithus is a neutral zone...why does the Horde have the right to kill Alliance spies there, but Alliance does not have the right to kill miners that are actually HURTING Azeroth? Well, that depends:
- If you have your head up your arse you will say "Because...............FOR THE HORDE!"
- If you actually look objectively at the situation you will say "Well, actually none of this really makes any sense for me as a PC, no matter what color my tabard has...."

you realize spies are not tolerated right? Your post seems to be that Horde should tolerate them. No one lets an enemy collect information on them unless they are a grade A dumbass.

[Nathasil]

you realize spies are not tolerated right? Your post seems to be that Horde should tolerate them. No one lets an enemy collect information on them unless they are a grade A dumbass.

So what you are saying is, if i get into your backyard with a mining-pick and start digging...you will not mind and have no right to engage me in ANY way, but as soon as i start standing around doing absolutely nothing you suddenly gain the right to shoot me?

Did you even spend 1 second thinking about your sentence before hitting "send"?

What my post "indicates" is that the Horde had absolutely NO RIGHT to start mining there in contested territory and expect the Alliance to simply not care. The Alliance has every right to care. So what does "caring" mean? They could have simply send soldiers to attack the miners...or they could have watched them. They opted for the peaceful option....and yet some Horde-Players insist that the Alliance started the aggression in Silithus.

I repeat my question: What is more aggressive to do in contested, neutral territory
A) Dig up the ground, actually hurting the planet, collecting an unknown substance
B) Watching somebody else doing A)

These are the two things the factions actually do in Silithus...and both of them react EXACTLY the same as soon as the PC arrives: "Go kill them!"

So why do some people say that the Alliance is starting the aggression, when they were obviously doing the FAR less aggressive thing before the PC arrives? THAT is the question i want to "indicate".

[Friendlyimmolation]

So what you are saying is, if i get into your backyard with a mining-pick and start digging...you will not mind and have no right to engage me in ANY way, but as soon as i start standing around doing absolutely nothing you suddenly gain the right to shoot me?

Well the first fuckup is your weird attempt to turn this into some weird property rant. Spies are working to gather information for your enemy, know what happens at the best of times? You capture them and interrogate them, if there is multitudes and you can't capture them all? They die.

Did you even spend 1 second thinking about your sentence before hitting "send"?

I don't think I'm the one here that is suffering from an extreme lack of basic understanding.

What my post "indicates" is that the Horde had absolutely NO RIGHT to start mining there in contested territory and expect the Alliance to simply not care. The Alliance has every right to care. So what does "caring" mean? They could have simply send soldiers to attack the miners...or they could have watched them. They opted for the peaceful option....and yet some Horde-Players insist that the Alliance started the aggression in Silithus.

The Alliance still is sending enemy forces into a Horde camp. Who says the Horde has no right to dig there? The Alliance? What gives them the right to say that? More importantly why the fuck would the Horde care what the Alliance says they can and can't do?

If they wanted it to be peaceful, they wouldn't have sent in spies, you not understanding that spies and saboteurs is an escalation aside. They were trying to be efficient and gather information, boo hoo the Goblins didn't just let Alliance waltz through their dig.

I repeat my question: What is more aggressive to do in contested, neutral territory
A) Dig up the ground, actually hurting the planet, collecting an unknown substance
B) Watching somebody else doing A)

I'll repeat myself in a vain hope you somehow understand. Spies are still enemies, it doesn't matter if they are "Peaceful" (Crying out for Horde blood as they attack you is hilariously peaceful) They're still trespassing on an enemy faction's digsite.

So why do some people say that the Alliance is starting the aggression, when they were obviously doing the FAR less aggressive thing before the PC arrives? THAT is the question i want to "indicate".

Because they tried to sneak into an enemy camp, I cannot think of a possibly easier way to explain it for you to understand.

[Nathasil]

-

I will try one last time...and if we still disagree, then that is just the outcome i have to live with, i guess.

Imagine the European Union started to mine an unknown substance at the bottom of the Northsea. International Waters.
Russia sends in U-Boats to spy on the operation.

Does this give the EU the right to shoot the Russian U-Boats down? Because i think no, it does not.

And IF both sides later decided to go aggressive, the EU shoots down the U-Boats while the Russians shoot down the miners - which of both parties is guilty of the escalation?

I would say the EU is, because they started a very dubious mining operation in international waters and it was CLEAR that Russia had to react somehow....doing that by simply spying and not outright attacking was actually a very calm response. And i am SOMEWHAT certain the majority of the rest of the world would agree with me on this point.

Edit:
I am an EU citizen, by the way...i just chose EU+Russia as examples because USA are ALWAYS used and i just wanted o give some variety.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I will try one last time...and if we still disagree, then that is just the outcome i have to live with, i guess.

Imagine the European Union started to mine an unknown substance at the bottom of the Northsea. International Waters.
Russia sends in U-Boats to spy on the operation.

Does this give the EU the right to shoot the Russian U-Boats down? Because i think no, it does not.

And IF both sides later decided to go aggressive, the EU shoots down the U-Boats while the Russians shoot down the miners - which of both parties is guilty of the escalation?

I would say the EU is, because they started a very dubious mining operation in international waters and was CLEAR that Russia had to react somehow....doing that by simply spying and not outright attacking was actually a very calm response. And i am SOMEWHAT certain the majority of the rest of the world would agree with me on this point.

Edit:
I am an EU citizen, by the way...i just chose EU+Russia as examples because USA are ALWAYS used and i just wanted o give some variety.

Which is why at best I said that the Goblins would capture the spies/ saboteurs. In an arms race no way in hell do you simply let spies wander free. Best case scenario they spend a very long time in a cell.

[Nathasil]

Which is why at best I said that the Goblins would capture the spies/ saboteurs. In an arms race no way in hell do you simply let spies wander free. Best case scenario they spend a very long time in a cell.

So you keep your position that the Horde has the right to act against those spies on neutral/contested ground but the Alliance has no right to act against the miners. Because this is where our little dispute started. I still do not understand why you would say it is totally fine and right if the Horde started arresting/killing Alliance spies on neutral ground, but the Alliance arresting/killing Horde miners on neutral ground is "starting the agression".

But as i said before: This is obviously the point where i will simply have to accept we disagree and let it go, there isn't anything else for me to add.

[Steampunkette]

@Nathasil

Chapter 1 of Before the Storm ends with Anduin telling Shaw to get his Best People to Silithus. Which is the PC.

Chapter 3 of Before the Storm ends with Sylvanas talking to Gallywix and it's assumed that at some point -after- that she tells Nathanos to send the Horde PC down to Silithus.

The Alliance PC gets to Silithus and starts murdering goblin miners to steal Azerite from their corpses before the Horde Player even talks to Nathanos.

As to the "Spies versus Miners" argument: Spies are COMBATANTS according to the literal rules of warfare that exist. Miners would be civilian laborers. Attacking one of those two is a War Crime, while the other is part of fighting battles. I'll let you guess which one.

[Polarthief]

Sounds like a boring ass game you want to play.

It's world of warcraft not world of peacecraft.

The "war" is with the opposing forces from the outside who wish to do harm with my world. Both the Horde (my new and current faction) and the Alliance (my old faction that I played for the last 13 years) are just trying to do their thing. They're not trying to destroy or conquer the entire land or anything really, but then you throw in Old Gods, corrupted Titans, massive demonic invasions, more demons, Garrosh and his "Iron Horde", 2+ entire dragonflights gone rogue, and a plethora of other issues, and you've got more than enough problems that the stupid conflict between Horde and Alliance seems like your everyday small issues. It feels VERY forced to now, after all this time, force the Horde and Alliance to fight more, almost like we've learned fuckall from the last... how many years has it been?

[Volitar]

Yeah everything seems so forced and cringey as fuck.

[Nathasil]

@Nathasil

Chapter 1 of Before the Storm ends with Anduin telling Shaw to get his Best People to Silithus. Which is the PC.

Chapter 3 of Before the Storm ends with Sylvanas talking to Gallywix and it's assumed that at some point -after- that she tells Nathanos to send the Horde PC down to Silithus.

The Alliance PC gets to Silithus and starts murdering goblin miners to steal Azerite from their corpses before the Horde Player even talks to Nathanos.

As to the "Spies versus Miners" argument: Spies are COMBATANTS according to the literal rules of warfare that exist. Miners would be civilian laborers. Attacking one of those two is a War Crime, while the other is part of fighting battles. I'll let you guess which one.

1) The stories in Silithus of BOTH factions happen simultaneously. Shaw's "best people" ARE the spies in the mining-camp.
2) Spies vs. Miners
I just had my little exachange with Immolation about that. So you, too, say that starting a mining operation in neutral/contested territory would NEVER justify a military response, while sending spies does. I just point back to my Northsea example above. If you actually believe that sending spies into this operation would actually be considered warranting starting to shoot them down, then this - again - is the point where we simply disagree.

To reiterate: I am NOT arguing the Alliance had every right to kill those miners and there is no blame on them whatsoever. All i am saying is that the violence did NOT start with the spies. The violence comes in with the PCs attacking simultaneously on both sides, while NPCs of neither faction attack anything. No, i do not believe you can start secret operations in contested territory wherever you like and then claim the moral highground killing spies of other factions/nations when they show up around you. I believe that starting such operations in the first place is an act of aggression in itself...and spying on it is the least violent defense possible.

[Irian]

Man, OP kinda raised a good point and it kinda hit me why this faction war feels so contrived this time around.

He's pretty much right. Yes the Alliance hasn't always been nice to the horde and at worst stopped some goblins from mining at a disaster site but past that the Alliance hasn't actually done a whole lot to warrant the kind of hostility the Horde is showing ingame. It feels more like pointless escalation for the sake of "they did this bad thing this one time a long time ago!" and less of an actual natural ramp-up.

Worse yet, Sylvanas doesn't even try to hide her true intent; she wants Kalimdor to belong totally to the Horde. She wants to conquer and destroy and raise the slain as her own. It really doesn't get more tyrannical than that, and yet somehow her actions are noble as opposed to Garrosh, who was...somehow ignoble? What, because he destroyed a peaceful town? Sylvanas does that in Stormsong Valley. Because he was willing to use the non-orc races as tools? Sylvanas is no different. It's hard to see where and why the Horde isn't drawing the line here and did before.

It almost adds to the "wtf?" when you see things like Thalyssra and Lasan Skyhorn in the Alliance infiltration intro willingly going along with a raid on Stormwind without a second thought despite being allies literally weeks ago. What exactly did the Alliance do to warrant these kinds of attacks? It's a one-sided fight with the Horde always being the aggressor and Alliance always being the victim, and it leads to one faction just feeling like the "bad guys" even if that isn't the truth.

I'm not saying the Alliance don't have blood on their hands, or that the Alliance is good and Horde are bad, but if you actually take a step back from faction bias and look at this situation there's a clear purpose for war for one faction and not for the other. The Alliance has plenty of reason to retaliate against the Horde but the Horde hasn't really given proper reason to be as hostile as they've acted. Yes, the Alliance has wronged Sylvanas, but the Alliance really hasn't done a lot to wrong the members of the Horde that aren't under either Gallywix and Sylvanas. And considering how lowly Gallywix thinks of his own people, I'd say Sylvanas only. The Horde player, if anything but an undead or goblin, has no reason other than duty and orders to hate or want to battle against the Alliance. Illicit mining of what is almost definitely an extremely dangerous resource is not exactly something the average Horde member would give two shits about.

[Steampunkette]

1) The stories in Silithus of BOTH factions happen simultaneously. Shaw's "best people" ARE the spies in the mining-camp.
2) Spies vs. Miners
I just had my little exachange with Immolation about that. So you, too, say that starting a mining operation in neutral/contested territory would NEVER justify a military response, while sending spies does. I just point back to my Northsea example above. If you actually believe that sending spies into this operation would actually be considered warranting starting to shoot them down, then this - again - is the point where we simply disagree.

To reiterate: I am NOT arguing the Alliance had every right to kill those miners and there is no blame on them whatsoever. All i am saying is that the violence did NOT start with the spies. The violence comes in with the PCs attacking simultaneously on both sides, while NPCs of neither faction attack anything. No, i do not believe you can start secret operations in contested territory wherever you like and then claim the moral highground killing spies of other factions/nations when they show up around you. I believe that starting such operations in the first place is an act of aggression in itself...and spying on it is the least violent defense possible.

I've given you a piece of chronological evidence that the Alliance and Horde PCs do -not- arrive at the same time, the chapter placement of the events in Before the Storm. In it, there's two full chapters between Anduin telling Shaw, whose spies are -already- in Silithus because they gave him the Azerite that he gives to Anduin, to send his best people and Sylvanas even LEARNING about the Azerite's existence. At no point in Chapter 3 does she tell Nathanos to tell the PC to go get the Azerite/Fight the Alliance, so it's some time after that.

You've given me "Nuh huh, they happen at the same time" with no supporting evidence. I would ask you to provide evidence of your claim. And no, "They happen at the same time in the game!" isn't evidence. The devs couldn't release the Alliance Content a day earlier than the Horde Content due to the immense backlash they'd have gotten.

As to the "But they're mining in contested territory!" And..? If I open up a lemonade stand and you send over a soldier to inspect it, you're the one causing the problem. Neither you nor your soldier has any authority to check over my lemonade stand and sending a soldier is, inherently, an -aggressive- action. I'm selling lemonade, he's got a gun.

Oh, and the whole "Hurting Azeroth" thing is BS. Neither Anduin nor Sylvanas know that 'til chapter 8 and 12, respectively.