Dragonmaw Orc and Wildhammer Dwarf allied race concept

[Thimagryn]

Why would they? They enslaved dragons for so long they're likely on a K.o.S. list for any dragon. I doubt they'd "bless" the Dragonmaw. And if you're asking about "taking the power by force"... why are you complaining that the man'ari are evil again?

If I were to tell you Kul Tiran humans would be able to be Druids and turn into Wicker forms of animals, you would ask the same question. Why would they indeed.

There could be any reason written in for Dragonmaw, making them both a force of good and giving them ties to the Dragons once more but in a good light. Just look at how Orcs lost the favour of the Elements, Gul'dan and company literally abused them to the point of destroying all of Draenor. Then a new character like Thrall comes around and suddenly you can't tear away Shamanism from Orc identity.

The Aspects lost their power, the Dragons are slowly diminishing. All you need is one simple plotline to explain how the connection is reborn and not under slavery. Warlords of Draenor is one way that connection can work into play.

Well, to separate them from regular Humans as a race obviously. Same reason why Dark Irons look so vastly different now with their glowing beards and new racials.

If there were to be a Dragonmaw playable allied race, then there has to be reason

[Syegfryed]

And void elves are purple blood elves going to the Alliance. Nightborne are slightly thinner night elves going to the Horde. Your argument of "diluting the factions" is moot by this point.

just because they did one time, there is nothing saying they will keep doing, when Ion himself said the faction identity matters

Void elves, nightborne.

the point was never exchange models, it was no their goal

Why would they? They enslaved dragons for so long they're likely on a K.o.S. list for any dragon. I doubt they'd "bless" the Dragonmaw. And if you're asking about "taking the power by force"... why are you complaining that the man'ari are evil again?

why would they not? the outland dragonmaw can, the azeroth can too, you don't need the "bless" and don't need taken by force, the draonmaw still control dragons.

Even so, would be less evil than the manari, thats for sure

Female Zandalari has the same animations as a normal female troll. Also, as for the new animations for the male Zandalari, was because Blizzard decided to make them stand upright (a far, far cry from giving them a "dragon form"). And as for the Kul'Tirans? They're a completely new race for the expansion.

yes and why they would not do for the dragonmaw again? because you think not? lol, drakonid can share animations with worgen/saurok just fine, or create a new one like the kultirans

And you know why? Because the brunt of the Scourge attack was on the Eastern Kingdoms. Only by the end of the WC3's last campaign that it sent to Kalimdor.

exactly, the horde don't have problem with undeads, and they didn't NEARLY as much death and destruction than the demons

... Or do you actually believe the Scourge would leave the Horde alone if it started on Kalimdor? You'd honestly think that the Horde, if they knew of the undead plague spreading on the other continent, would just go, "Meh, let the humans die. Those undead won't harm us."

you are talking about the future who didn't happen to explain how much "death and destruction" the undead did, wtf

Hmm... no, not really. If you're going to say that, then fighting demons like the man'ari is the same thing as "fighting any other race."

hmm.. no, not rly, again, the horde didn't just "fight" with demons, you again is ignoring everything trying to put the situation as the same

you forget the demons "didn't just fight" with the horde

Consider that, undead wouldn't stop fighting once you chop off an arm. They'd barely feel any pain, if any. And not even decapitation would stop an undead. So, no, fighting an undead is not like "fighting any other race" by the way.

nice, the classic nitpicking, you rly are a thing

It's not "shit logic" just because it sinks your arguments.

its shit logic because you are talking shit, trying to put the demons and undead as same thing when hey clearly are not

It's true. Blizzard wrote in a faction of non-evil undead, something that, in 99% (hyperbole here) of the movies, games and stories around is a force of evil and rampant destruction. Why do you think Blizzard can't write in a faction of demons in a similar way? Don't have to be "good", just "sufficiently not evil".

im not saying they cannot, you are making shit up, im saying it will be bullshit, will be a huge retcon, im saying will be more retarded to put then in the horde, and im saying dragonmaw made more sense, are more easy and lore friendly than this

... There were no "written story" about the Draenei we know today, for one. And you know this marvelous thing about written stories? They can be expanded with more stories added to them, either brand new, or continuations of existing tales. It's not a fallacy. Stories can be expanded, changed, added upon.

again making things up, strange you didn't use this when tried to dismiss the dragonmaw shapeshift hilarious, but i don't care about this argument, by this you can say anduin and sylvanas will have a child, its bullshit

you say they can't? too bad but Stories can be expanded, changed, added upon so the child can born

see how goofy look? there are no good manari, they already stated the demons are evil, and the manari especially who are corrupted and twisted, they will need to not just create new lore but retcon old lore

everything to make red draenei on the horde

with all the implications, they are less likely to happen than the Dragonmaw dragons ROFL

Yes, it is minor. Because it's just adding something without having to go "way back" in the pre-established story, nor having to change any already existing elements.

first, the void elves were not a retcon, second a retcon saying there are good demons is a BIG retcon, cause its what made demons demons, is a major point in their lore

and without pointing the fact that distorting horde lore for then accept the demons after everything rofl sure minor thing

This is the problem with your argument: you think it's a dichotomy. "if they're not 1:1 exactly the same in every single aspect, then they are totally, completely, 100% different in every single aspect."

the problem with your argument its because you ignore everything else and just focus on one single thing

>the undeads were enemies of the horde
> the demons were enemie of the horde
>undeds join the horde
>OBVIOUSLY DEMONS CAN JOIN TOO, LOOK AT THE UNDEAD, IS CLEARLY AS WATER HERP DERP

you forget , no, you dishonesty ignore, a fucking ton of information, variables, lore and interactions and focus in one thing "they were all evil and enemies, if one can be good and join the horde, the other can too!!1!, simple math!1!"

no, its not that simple, thats why your argument is meaningless and useless

You mean "vast majority", if not nearly 100% of the waves were undead.

the nitipickng once again

[Ielenia]

If I were to tell you Kul Tiran humans would be able to be Druids and turn into Wicker forms of animals, you would ask the same question. Why would they indeed.

No, not really. I'd have said, "Ok cool. And?"

The question "why would they" mean to ask why the dragon would 'bless' the very beings who attacked and enslaved their kin for so long.

There could be any reason written in for Dragonmaw, making them both a force of good and giving them ties to the Dragons once more but in a good light. Just look at how Orcs lost the favour of the Elements, Gul'dan and company literally abused them to the point of destroying all of Draenor. Then a new character like Thrall comes around and suddenly you can't tear away Shamanism from Orc identity.

Have they lost the favor of the elements? The elements in Draenor are different from the ones in Azeroth. On top of that, the reason you can't "tear away shamanism from the Orc identity" is because shamanism was presented as an integral part of the Orc culture since vanilla WoW.

If there were to be a Dragonmaw playable allied race, then there has to be reason

But does this reason need to be so elaborate as "they can now turn into dragons"?

[Thimagryn]

No, not really. I'd have said, "Ok cool. And?"

The question "why would they" mean to ask why the dragon would 'bless' the very beings who attacked and enslaved their kin for so long.

If they redeemed themselves or were alternate dimension Draenor versions that didn't enslave the Dragons, then why not?

Have they lost the favor of the elements? The elements in Draenor are different from the ones in Azeroth. On top of that, the reason you can't "tear away shamanism from the Orc identity" is because shamanism was presented as an integral part of the Orc culture since vanilla WoW.

Warcraft 2 and all its lore tells us the Elements abandoned them. It's why the entire story of pre-Warcraft 3 Lord of the Clans was all about that journey in gaining the trust of the elements once again, and abandoning the demonic taint in their blood. It's a redemption story and we've seen it hundreds of times; from Orcs to Death Knights to Valkyr to light-based Nathrezim. Yet somehow you can't see Dragonmaw being redeemed and gaining the blessing of Dragons?

But does this reason need to be so elaborate as "they can now turn into dragons"?

Just a simple google search produced this:

The Dragonmaw in Outland have seemingly learned how to transform some clan members into drakonid. The Dragonmaw Ascendants that roam Netherwing Ledge started out as mere peons,[79] while Zuluhed himself can transform into a drakonid using his "Nether Infusion" ability.

If that's one person's idea then that's what it is. No, it doesn't need to be so elaborate, and you can disagree with that opinion. What you're doing is trying to justify your reasoning with lore-based logic that doesn't exist; that being the Dragonmaw can not turn into Dragons.


To be fair, I don't think it's a good idea at all. I wouldn't attribute Dragonmaw with transformation abilities. Personally, I'd keep it simpler and more ruthless, simply having them slay dragons and drink their blood and somehow over time gained a portion of their power ala Demon Blood buffs. They might gain the ability to wield Arcane magic or Life magic where regular Orcs and Mag'har could not. That's just my idea.

[Ielenia]

just because they did one time, there is nothing saying they will keep doing, when Ion himself said the faction identity matters

Twice. First with pandaren, and now with nightborne/void elves.

the point was never exchange models, it was no their goal

And yet it happened.

Even so, would be less evil than the manari, thats for sure

Unless a new group of man'ari shows up, that are not as evil as their "brothers and sisters"... you know... like the Forsaken who aren't as evil as the Scourge...

yes and why they would not do for the dragonmaw again?

Because they're an already existing and established race?

exactly, the horde don't have problem with undeads, and they didn't NEARLY as much death and destruction than the demons

Yes, they did have problems with the Scourge, and, again I am not doing a "1:1 comparison" and stating they're "the exact same thing in every single aspect".

you are talking about the future who didn't happen to explain how much "death and destruction" the undead did, wtf

The undead did cause a lot of death and destruction. That's a fact. I'm just trying to show you how nonsensical is your idea of "the undead didn't attack the horde in wc3, so of course they're 'ok' guys." At least this is how you're presenting it.

hmm.. no, not rly, again, the horde didn't just "fight" with demons, you again is ignoring everything trying to put the situation as the same

you forget the demons "didn't just fight" with the horde

Funny how you just went into a completely different direction than your original argument "fighting undead is like fighting any other race." You don't even know what you're talking about anymore, do you?

(Also, it's "you are", not "you is")

nice, the classic nitpicking, you rly are a thing

... Why do you call "nitpicking" every time someone counters your argument? Just saying "nitpicking" every time doesn't work as counter-argument, you know?

its shit logic because you are talking shit, trying to put the demons and undead as same thing when hey clearly are not

You must be a delight to be around, considering you say the 'shit' every three or four words. Such a scholar-like vocabulary. Anyways, I'm not putting the demons and undead as "1:1 exactly the same thing in every single aspect". In this specific situation (read: a small faction of "good" people that used to belong to a wholly evil group) is the same.

im saying dragonmaw made more sense, are more easy and lore friendly than this

It's just as lore-friendly, really.

again making things up, strange you didn't use this when tried to dismiss the dragonmaw shapeshift hilarious, but i don't care about this argument, by this you can say anduin and sylvanas will have a child, its bullshit

It's not a "bullshit argument", and I'm not making things up. Stories change and evolve. It's a fact.

you say they can't? too bad but Stories can be expanded, changed, added upon so the child can born

Yeah. They can. And they do. Don't like it? Tough. Deal with it.

see how goofy look? there are no good manari, they already stated the demons are evil, and the manari especially who are corrupted and twisted, they will need to not just create new lore but retcon old lore

There is no need to "retcon old lore". Blizzard could easily add a small faction of man'ari that, despite being altered, both physically and mentally by Sargeras' magic, they were disillusioned by Sargeras' desire to snuff out all life, and left into hiding as they might be hunted. Another idea is that the man'ari, now without not only Sargeras, but without Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden as well, perhaps all the mental corruption caused by Sargeras starts to lessen. Some decide to continue Sargeras' initial plan, a small portion of others regain enough of their former mindset to break from the Legion and forge their own path. They're not the good people that they used to be, but they're now no longer evil.

It's not hard.

everything to make red draenei on the horde

with all the implications, they are less likely to happen than the Dragonmaw dragons ROFL

first, the void elves were not a retcon, second a retcon saying there are good demons is a BIG retcon, cause its what made demons demons, is a major point in their lore

and without pointing the fact that distorting horde lore for then accept the demons after everything rofl sure minor thing

Yes, they were a retcon, because Magister Umbric and his team of researchers did not exist until 7.3.5. And all the history about him researching the void was retcon'ed into the game's lore.

And, again, the playable faction of man'ari don't have to be "good" like the holy Draenei, they could be shady like the Forsaken. And the same thing you're saying about the demons now is the same thing that could be said about a playable faction of undead back then before all the races of WoW vanilla were announced.

the problem with your argument its because you ignore everything else and just focus on one single thing

>the undeads were enemies of the horde
> the demons were enemie of the horde
>undeds join the horde
>OBVIOUSLY DEMONS CAN JOIN TOO, LOOK AT THE UNDEAD, IS CLEARLY AS WATER HERP DERP

you forget , no, you dishonesty ignore, a fucking ton of information, variables, lore and interactions and focus in one thing "they were all evil and enemies, if one can be good and join the horde, the other can too!!1!, simple math!1!"

no, its not that simple, thats why your argument is meaningless and useless

Except all this "fucking ton of information, variables, lore and interactions" are meaningless. I mean, take yourself back to Warcraft 3, when WoW was barely announced, and imagine only two races from each faction were revealed. Let's say Orc and Troll for Horde, Human and Dwarf for Alliance, and there would be two more races for each faction to be announced later. Any idea for the undead being one of said unannounced races would fall exactly within the same reasons you're saying 'no' to the man'ari.

the nitipickng once again

It's not "nitpicking" if I'm pointing out blatant errors of yours. "Some" and "the vast majority" are not an issue of semantics. You just present yourself as someone who never played WC3 or even set foot inside the Mt. Hyjal raid instance.

[Directionalk9]

Personally allowing the Dragonmaw to turn into dragons feels...wrong. It doesn't really fit their heritage what so ever. They're suppose to be dragon tamers, not one with them. Not to mention it doesn't offer that near perfect parallel with the Wildhammers, unless of course they can turn into gryphonids.

I think a lot of this "but they could..." it out of a need to further distinguish them from what 2 maybe 3 Mag'har skin options. I don't think that's needed. Take what we've seen from them already and run wild with it like Blizzard did with the Dark Irons. Dark Irons are really only a few skin options, but its the Tattoos, Hair/Bear styles and Accessories that really popped with them. I know it's just my personal opinion, but that is all that really need to be done.

Sometimes for these types of requested Allied Races its not about adding a new thing to them, but rather extrapolating to the nines with what's been established.

[Ielenia]

If they redeemed themselves or were alternate dimension Draenor versions that didn't enslave the Dragons, then why not?

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I find it hard to imagine a decent redemption idea for a race that has gone the "evil" way at almost every opportunity they had. As for Draenor... I don't think there are dragons in Draenor? I mean, I could be wrong, but I don't remember seeing any dragons there. The closest thing was the twin-headed rylaks. I don't think the dead Time-Lost Proto-Drake we find in the time-displaced area of Nagrand counts, though.

Warcraft 2 and all its lore tells us the Elements abandoned them. It's why the entire story of pre-Warcraft 3 Lord of the Clans was all about that journey in gaining the trust of the elements once again, and abandoning the demonic taint in their blood. It's a redemption story and we've seen it hundreds of times; from Orcs to Death Knights to Valkyr to light-based Nathrezim. Yet somehow you can't see Dragonmaw being redeemed and gaining the blessing of Dragons?

Again, I'm not saying it's impossible. I just find it hard to imagine a decent idea. And the idea of "redeeming" is two-fold: it's one thing to 'clean up your act', and it's another thing entirely to gain the trust of the race that your clan has a long history of enslaving and torturing.

Just a simple google search produced this:

If that's one person's idea then that's what it is. No, it doesn't need to be so elaborate, and you can disagree with that opinion. What you're doing is trying to justify your reasoning with lore-based logic that doesn't exist; that being the Dragonmaw can not turn into Dragons.

That's not the point. The point of my question was "do they really have to turn into a drakonid to be an allied race"? Asking for them being drakonid is kind of admitting that the Dragonmaw aren't unique enough by themselves, and kind of defeats the idea of adding them, in my opinion.

[Thimagryn]

That's not the point. The point of my question was "do they really have to turn into a drakonid to be an allied race"? Asking for them being drakonid is kind of admitting that the Dragonmaw aren't unique enough by themselves, and kind of defeats the idea of adding them, in my opinion.

Fair enough. I will agree with you that the Dragonmaw are not unique enough by themselves. However, I disagree on your point that it defeats the purpose of adding them, on the basis of what is already set by other Allied Races.

An argument can be made that Allied Races are not being chosen for their uniqueness. Consider that Highmountain Tauren and Lightforged Draenei were chosen over something more unique like Hozen or Ogres; races that actually have legitimacy within the Factions yet were passed over.

I see Allied Races as subraces that are given new, unique traits. If you think of it this way, it explains why Dark Irons are suddenly getting glowy beards, why Kul Tirans are as big as Tauren, why High Elves are suddenly turning to the Void, why Zandalari can turn into Dinosaurs. These are all just regular races that we've seen since Vanilla, but as an Allied Race are being given new traits that make them stand apart. Some of these traits break everything we knew about them in lore.

If you think about it this way, it opens up potential for any clan or human nation to be an Allied Race, and as a result gain some sort of unique attribute for their recognition. Lordaeron nation can be reborn through Light-based Forsaken like Calia. Blackrock Orcs could join with their black skin and lava-glowing 'blood' like Blackhand. Dragonmaw wouldn't be any different here, and it's all a matter of opinion on where the line is drawn.

[Ielenia]

Fair enough.

Though I don't think you're giving the concept credit considering every Allied Race we are getting is, technically, not unique enough by themselves and ARE being given special attributes that otherwise were not a part of their identity.

I don't care if the Dragonmaw are added as an allied race. TBH, in my opinion, the "ship has sailed" for the dragonmaw because they should've been added together with the other orc races as part of the "mag'har". Having a third, separate orc "race" feels... very, very, very unlikely and unoriginal. Again, in my opinion.

We've seen Zandalari since Vanilla, and fully fleshed out in Throne of Thunder. None of them showed ability to turn into Dinosaurs, yet here we are. Kul Tirans were present as well, and with Jaina and Theramore, we haven't seen any of them as large as Tauren. Dark Iron have flaming beards where they were originally just Dwarves with dark skin and hair. Don't even get me started with the Elves.

The thing with the Zandalari is because the druid class can turn into dinos, not the Zandalari themselves, like the worgen can. Theramore... I think it's debatable whether it's a Kul'Tiran settlement, or just an Alliance settlement that Jaina happens to lead. But in the case of the former, perhaps all the Kul'Tiran personnel were pulled back after they parted from the Alliance, and the Alliance sent Alliance soldiers to repopulate the fort? And as for the DI beards, well, those are just a minor cosmetic addition. It's not like they can turn into flame avatars or anything.

[Syegfryed]

Twice. First with pandaren, and now with nightborne/void elves.

pandaren was introduced neutral rom the star, they didn't change the races, and also were not part inherent of the actions before

And yet it happened.

thanks for saying the obvious while you do not counter the argument

Unless a new group of man'ari shows up, that are not as evil as their "brothers and sisters"... you know... like the Forsaken who aren't as evil as the Scourge...

yeah a retcon and bullshit

Because they're an already existing and established race?

you mean like manari whoa re already established evil demons?

your own arguments are biting you in the ass

The undead did cause a lot of death and destruction. That's a fact.

thanks for saying the obvious again, i enver aid they didn't cause, is aid they didn't cause nearly as much the demons, we can even ay the alliance/humans did more death and tdestruction tot he horde than the udneads did pior the wtLK

I'm just trying to show you how nonsensical is your idea of "the undead didn't attack the horde in wc3, so of course they're 'ok' guys." At least this is how you're presenting it.

no, you re trying to "win the rce " here, i never said they didn't attack the horde in war3, you are so blind in butthurt that i think you are not even reading properly anymore, i asid thy were not a Horde big problem until the WtLK, they only faced the undeads in hyjal and nearby

the undeads never let scar so big and deep in the horde like the burning legion did

Funny how you just went into a completely different direction than your original argument "fighting undead is like fighting any other race." You don't even know what you're talking about anymore, do you?

again you are nitpicking, i said they fight like any other race because they meet in battle, they fight and win or lose, it was what happenmed in hyjal, is what happened again the elves, and the humans

Demons wherever, didn't just "fight" against orcs

(Also, it's "you are", not "you is")

nice man,you finally win, you correct me, uuh, im not a native english speaker and confused something, you rly destroyed me now!

... Why do you call "nitpicking" every time someone counters your argument? Just saying "nitpicking" every time doesn't work as counter-argument, you know?

exept you counter nothing, LOL, you just start grasping at something else, with nonsense trying to validate something, you bring somethign totally irrelevant as a tentative to refute" me, rly is not funny anymore

You must be a delight to be around, considering you say the 'shit' every three or four words. Such a scholar-like vocabulary. Anyways, I'm not putting the demons and undead as "1:1 exactly the same thing in every single aspect". In this specific situation (read: a small faction of "good" people that used to belong to a wholly evil group) is the same.

now come to the personal attack, since ou can "refute" me, to "win" this right?

again, your specific situation don't work it have no ground, you are manipulating the variables to it your point, give up

It's just as lore-friendly, really.

yeah, orcs joining the horde is the same a blizzard retconing old lore, taking a group of good demon goats and making the horde accept then, so lore friendly, why are not writing or blizzard? its astonishing

It's not a "bullshit argument", and I'm not making things up. Stories change and evolve. It's a fact.

the classic "if blizzard want they can do" when you have nothing else to grap

like i said, the story of the child of anduin and sylvanas is not making things up, stories change and evolve, its a fact, its "lore friendly"

(i hope you notice the sarcasm here, so you don't take this to nitpick)

There is no need to "retcon old lore". Blizzard could easily add a small faction of man'ari that, despite being altered, both physically and mentally by Sargeras' magic, they were disillusioned by Sargeras' desire to snuff out all life, and left into hiding as they might be hunted.

how they can do that when all manari are in legion and are evil?

thats right you retcon saying not all manari are evil and notpart of the legion and retcon saying there are good demons

Yes, they were a retcon, because Magister Umbric and his team of researchers did not exist until 7.3.5. And all the history about him researching the void was retcon'ed into the game's lore.

youa re condracting yourself once again

for you is not retcon "create good demons" but tis retcon take some elves from their asses

just make up your mind

Except all this "fucking ton of information, variables, lore and interactions" are meaningless.

you thinking is meaningless =/= being meaningless

It's not "nitpicking" if I'm pointing out blatant errors of yours.

it is nitipicking, again, you are trying by all means "refute" me, so you are grapping and focusing in the words i say like fucking matters because your argument is deep as a glass of water

"the undeads were not problem cause the horde jut face some of then in hyjal"

SOME? HAha YOU IGNORANT, YOU ARE WRONG, YOU LOSE, I WILL I REFUTE YOU!!1!

dude relax, you don't need to do that, my point is the were not a big problem, and didn't make they sworn enemies like the legion and the demons, you focusing in the quantity ignoring the main point jut for the sake of "win", show you are a nitpicker who don't know how to discuss properly

- - - Updated - - -

Personally allowing the Dragonmaw to turn into dragons feels...wrong. It doesn't really fit their heritage what so ever. They're suppose to be dragon tamers, not one with them. Not to mention it doesn't offer that near perfect parallel with the Wildhammers, unless of course they can turn into gryphonids.

the counterpart is not rly that important

btw, i think turning ino draknoid i awesome, personally, after years living with dragons you become one, its poetic

you will be a dragon tamer still, but with their powers, just like worgens still hold their human heritage

also, humans and orcs shapeshfiting into monsters, again, poetic

[Thimagryn]

The thing with the Zandalari is because the druid class can turn into dinos, not the Zandalari themselves, like the worgen can. Theramore... I think it's debatable whether it's a Kul'Tiran settlement, or just an Alliance settlement that Jaina happens to lead. But in the case of the former, perhaps all the Kul'Tiran personnel were pulled back after they parted from the Alliance, and the Alliance sent Alliance soldiers to repopulate the fort? And as for the DI beards, well, those are just a minor cosmetic addition. It's not like they can turn into flame avatars or anything.

What is your opinion on each of the current allied races?

So far you are being a lore apologist by making excuses in order for things happening. If dragonmaw get added and have dragon transformation, you will look at the netherwing stuff I posted earlier and say yeah it makes sense it was always in the lore. You just havent realized it yet.

I mean does Blood Elves on the horde make more sense than dragonmaw gaining powers somegow?

[Ielenia]

yeah a retcon

Nothing of the original story would change.

and bullshit

Matter of opinion.

you mean like manari whoa re already established evil demons?

your own arguments are biting you in the ass

Nonsense like this makes me wonder if you're really following the arguments or just responding to quotes in a vacuum. I'm not saying the man'ari's form need to be changed. They're already distinctive enough.

thanks for saying the obvious again, i enver aid they didn't cause, is aid they didn't cause nearly as much the demons, we can even ay the alliance/humans did more death and tdestruction tot he horde than the udneads did pior the wtLK

Except that's irrelevant. Because the argument was never "the undead did damage to the Horde". The argument was "the undead did damage to the world". For such a shamanistic culture with the orcs and tauren, the dead rising from the grave is unnatural and wrong. You're acting as if the orcs and tauren would give ghouls and abominations the 'benefit of the doubt' just because, in WC3, they didn't spend an entire campaign fighting against them.

i never said they didn't attack the horde in war3, you are so blind in butthurt that i think you are not even reading properly anymore, i asid thy were not a Horde big problem until the WtLK, they only faced the undeads in hyjal and nearby

the undeads never let scar so big and deep in the horde like the burning legion did

It's funny how you admit the undead weren't a problem until Wrath, despite the fact you admit that the undead indeed WERE a problem for the Horde in that last mission of the original WC3 game. Seriously, the Horde saw all the death and destruction the undead can cause.

again you are nitpicking, i said they fight like any other race because they meet in battle, they fight and win or lose, it was what happenmed in hyjal, is what happened again the elves, and the humans

Demons wherever, didn't just "fight" against orcs

You're not making any sense at all in there. What do you mean by "they fight like any other race"?

again, your specific situation don't work it have no ground, you are manipulating the variables to it your point, give up

I'm not manipulating or ignoring anything. The only real difference between the undead and the demons is scale. Nothing else. Their situation could basically be the same situation the undead found themselves in Warcraft 3. A faction breaks away from the main group and go do their own thing.

yeah, orcs joining the horde is the same a blizzard retconing old lore

... There's no retcon of old lore necessary. At all. And I explained why.

the classic "if blizzard want they can do" when you have nothing else to grap

like i said, the story of the child of anduin and sylvanas is not making things up, stories change and evolve, its a fact, its "lore friendly"

(i hope you notice the sarcasm here, so you don't take this to nitpick)

Except your "sarcasm" basically turns around and bites you, because... yeah. If Blizzard wanted, they could have Anduin and Sylvanas get freaky under the sheets and produce an offspring. Your nigh-hyperbolic example does nothing to refute the idea. It's not hard to come up with a faction of man'ari that no longer follow the designs of Sargeras, especially now that he's out of commission.

how they can do that when all manari are in legion and are evil?

"All"? I'd wager you'd have a hard, hard time finding a citation for that. Can you find any? Besides, as per your own token, before the end of WC3, "all undead were in the Scourge and were evil". But today we have the Forsaken.

youa re condracting yourself once again

for you is not retcon "create good demons" but tis retcon take some elves from their asses

just make up your mind

Do you know what "retcon" stands for? It stands for "retroactive continuity", and there are two types: one type of "retcon" is when the story added does not alter the original story, which is the case of Umbric, and would be the case for the man'ari; and the type of "retcon" that changes the original story, which is the case of Onyxia, where originally it was the heroes who ousted her, but now it was Varian who revealed and defeated her.

When you say "retcon the old lore", you're talking about the second type, and that is not what necessarily needs to happen with the man'ari

you thinking is meaningless =/= being meaningless

Except it is, because adding them would change nothing in the results.

it is nitipicking

It's amazing how you call 'nitpicking' every single time someone disagrees with you or point out blatant errors in your arguments.

- - - Updated - - -

What is your opinion on each of the current allied races?

So far you are being a lore apologist by making excuses in order for things happening. If dragonmaw get added and have dragon transformation, you will look at the netherwing stuff I posted earlier and say yeah it makes sense it was always in the lore. You just havent realized it yet.

I mean does Blood Elves on the horde make more sense than dragonmaw gaining powers somegow?

Not really, because I don't agree with the void elves. I think the reason for their existence is nonsensical. The Argus broken or the ghost elves of the Court of Farondis would have made more sense, in my opinion. Or... hell, just give Highmountain tauren to the Horde and nightborne to the Alliance and keep it just one allied race from Legion to each faction.

[Lionhearte0]

Dragonmaw can't be Priests, but their Play Fetch racial shares a 30s cooldown with Leap..?

[Syegfryed]

Nothing of the original story would change.

except it will change

the original story is

Man'ari — The eredar that joined the Burning Legion became demons

so you will retcon to "some man'ari didn't join the legion or left the legion

Nonsense like this makes me wonder if you're really following the arguments or just responding to quotes in a vacuum.

say the guy who is is babbling and nitpicking about meaningless things while slowing running away from the original goals, member how you re crying about 100% of the dragonmaw being with Garrosh? then turn into you bitching about clan size? now we are here, im asking what will be next

I'm not saying the man'ari's form need to be changed. They're already distinctive enough.

who the hell is talking about form? we are discussing lore

Except that's irrelevant

like everything you said in this thread

The argument was "the undead did damage to the world". For such a shamanistic culture with the orcs and tauren, the dead rising from the grave is unnatural and wrong.

"the world" you mean lordaeron, sure will afflict too much the orcs and the horde

this about dead and rising is totally out of topic and was reason for a lot of discussion in other threads, the point is Taurens accept then because they think they could help, the forsakens were victims and they beg for help, and even that they were not "accepted" like other races, is blatantly obvious that was an alliance of convenience

a scenario totally different from accepting demons. Again, you are comparing things like they were the same, just because they look alike, a ocean will drown you, but a water drop will not, and you will not convince anyone with "but they both are water! if one can the other can too!" pls stop

It's funny how you admit the undead weren't a problem until Wrath, despite the fact you admit that the undead indeed WERE a problem for the Horde in that last mission of the original WC3 game. Seriously, the Horde saw all the death and destruction the undead can cause.

you have problem with escalation, you are rly naive to believe the undeds who attacked the horde in WC3 were in the same lv of thread the undeads of wrath, LOL wake up, i said they were not BIG problem until wrath, because you know, the Lk threatened the horde and the world, unlike the undead in WC3 who were peons of the Legion

yeah the horde saw how much death and destruction they can do, kill soldiers and destroy their base, waow thats some next lv shit

You're not making any sense at all in there. What do you mean by "they fight like any other race"?

the horde fight against they like against any other race

they see undeads they kill, they see humans they kill, like any other enemies, the horde already fight other orcs other tauren thats how it goes

but none of then leave a scar so big in the horde like undeads did, that why they are not the same

Your nigh-hyperbolic example does nothing to refute the idea.

its not to refute a idea fam, unlike you im not trying to win a race, its to show how retarded the argument is, that can be used to explain every shit you can imagine, so its useless use in the discussion

you can just put your finger ins your ears and say "lalala blizz can do is easy lala" yeah and? your point is to have not point

"All"? I'd wager you'd have a hard, hard time finding a citation for that. Can you find any? Besides, as per your own token, before the end of WC3, "all undead were in the Scourge and were evil". But today we have the Forsaken.

forsaken were easily to be told, free from the LK, it was explained in war 3, this trick can't work since even without sargeras the demons were evil

since you are know for nitpicking, i will explain every detail now

ALL man'ari ( cause are the one we re discussing so i said demons as generalization for then) are evil at this point of lore, until blizzard said otherwise, even the man'ari NPC in the sewer of dalaran is

The man'ari now act as some of the most powerful weapons in the Burning Legion's arsenal.

in the velen words

who were, by now, a "twisted demonic reflection of" the original eredar

Their corruptive powers over mortal souls are such that only the strongest-willed can even stand face to face with them

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Eredar#Demonic_eredar

by now, all mana'ri are members of the burning Legion, corrupted, twisted evil with hunger of power, you want they to retcon this, so "there was a group of good manari all along" its lazy written, you cannot even use the "they rebel" excuse cause the rebels are the broken in argus, if there are rebels were are they? they don't exist

lets say they retcon and take some group of good manari from their asses, now, they just come to orgrimmar and ask to join, lets ignore the fact that they have no fucking reason to do that, no fucking reason to join a faction war, and no reason to pledge loyalty to the bitch queen

lets ignore that, they will go to the horde asking to join, somes months after their race dismantle the horde and kill the warchief in broken shore, after the legion almost destroy our world, what the heck do you think the orcs will do? they will do like the humans did to the undead when sylvanas send a messenger, they will kill then on sight

do you rly believe after all this shit, they will do like "hey guys this are our new allies, the demons!1!!" LOL, you are telling me this is "lore friendly" and more likely and easy to happen than some grey orcs becoming playable? or some orcs growing scales? gimme a break

Do you know what "retcon" stands for? It stands for "retroactive continuity", and there are two types: one type of "retcon" is when the story added does not alter the original story, which is the case of Umbric, and would be the case for the man'ari

nice you are understanding

every single time someone disagrees with you or point out blatant errors in your arguments.

ROFL, dude, get out of your pedestal, the only "blatant error" you point was the grammar error, you should be proud

[Ielenia]

except it will change

the original story is


so you will retcon to "some man'ari didn't join the legion or left the legion

And you complain that I grasp at straws? Geez. Nothing would change in the original history. Man'ari would still be exactly as you described: "The eredar that joined the Burning Legion became demons".

who the hell is talking about form? we are discussing lore

And so I repeat: nothing about the original lore would change if Blizzard added a small faction of man'ari that broke from the Burning Legion, either before or after Sargeras' fall.

"the world" you mean lordaeron, sure will afflict too much the orcs and the horde

Which is part of the world. Also, Hyjal.

this about dead and rising is totally out of topic and was reason for a lot of discussion in other threads, the point is Taurens accept then because they think they could help, the forsakens were victims and they beg for help, and even that they were not "accepted" like other races, is blatantly obvious that was an alliance of convenience

And why can't this splintered faction of man'ari make an "alliance of convenience" as well?

Again, you are comparing things like they were the same, just because they look alike

Not exactly. I'm not comparing them as "the same" as a whole like you're doing. I'm comparing them in context. I hope you understand 'context'?

you have problem with escalation,

Your entire paragraph tells me that you have a problem with scale.

the horde fight against they like against any other race

they see undeads they kill, they see humans they kill, like any other enemies, the horde already fight other orcs other tauren thats how it goes

but none of then leave a scar so big in the horde like undeads did, that why they are not the same

And they see demons, they kill the demons, like any other enemies. What's the problem?

unlike you im not trying to win a race

You're the only one who is thinking about 'race'. Perhaps that's why your posts are so disorganized, your thoughts just keep running laps over and over?

I can just put my finger ins my ears and say "lalala retcon nitpick retcon nitpick lala" yeah and? my point is to have not point

FTFY

forsaken were easily to be told, free from the LK, it was explained in war 3, this trick can't work since even without sargeras the demons were evil

And the man'ari is just as easy to be told, free from Sargeras. It can be explained in a following expansion. And this trick can work because the man'ari originally were good.

ALL man'ari ( cause are the one we re discussing so i said demons as generalization for then) are evil at this point of lore, until blizzard said otherwise, even the man'ari NPC in the sewer of dalaran is

And until the WC3 expansion, ALL undead were evil, so that's a moot point to bring.

in the velen words


https://wow.gamepedia.com/Eredar#Demonic_eredar

First, at no point it says "all". Since you're using Velen's words, I'll remind you that Velen left Argus before it was fully corrupted. He doesn't know if some man'ari later decided to leave the Burning Legion. Hell, he didn't know Hatuun was still alive when he arrived on Argus.

nice you are understanding

Except it wouldn't be the kind of retcon you're insisting it would happen.

[Syegfryed]

And you complain that I grasp at straws? Geez. Nothing would change in the original history. Man'ari would still be exactly as you described: "The eredar that joined the Burning Legion became demons".

except it will change, there wil be some manari who 1)din't join 2) left 3) become good, in every way is retarded

And so I repeat: nothing about the original lore would change if Blizzard added a small faction of man'ari that broke from the Burning Legion, either before or after Sargeras' fall.

And so i repeat: the original lore will be changed of a faction of man'ai who broke , when previous lore said that all of then were legion, and they broke or not, they will still be evil beings

Which is part of the world. Also, Hyjal.

witch is not the world.

And why can't this splintered faction of man'ari make an "alliance of convenience" as well?

because all the reasons i said before, that you keep ignoring

Not exactly. I'm not comparing them as "the same" as a whole like you're doing. I'm comparing them in context. I hope you understand 'context'?

where is context of demons joining the factions afer they almost destoy the world? there is no ontext, you re tryin to manipulate things to fit, the context and situations are different

Your entire paragraph tells me that you have a problem with scale.

i men you are the one trying to put the death and destructon the demons did to the horde in the sme bag the scourge did in WC3, nd cry about contextyou entire problem is escalation

And they see demons, they kill the demons, like any other enemies. What's the problem?

i dunno maybe he face that the demons enslave the ocs and destroy their world? maybe this? ummm

again, you ignoring facts because "but muh undeads too!'

Perhaps that's why your posts are so disorganized, your thoughts just keep running laps over and over?

yaeh., said he guy bitching about the clan size some time ago, again, i wonder what the enxt thing you will bitch about when you have no more ground in this demon shit

And the man'ari is just as easy to be told, free from Sargeras. It can be explained in a following expansion. .

talking abou delusion, yeah, much easy, easy like the baby of anduin and sylvanas, can be explained in a following expansion, so it can end the faction war

And this trick can work because the man'ari originally were good

cause one thing is rly related to the other

And until the WC3 expansion, ALL undead were evil, so that's a moot point to bring.

yeah i know, thats i said they would need to retcon lore to create this lame ass story

First, at no point it says "all". Since you're using Velen's words

it say all, the eredar split in 3 groups, the ones who flee, the ones who become demons and the one who become broken in argus, thats the lore, thats all until they say otherwise

Except it wouldn't be the kind of retcon you're insisting it would happen.

it will be a retcon, thats my point, you re the one toying with words

again, my point is:

Is more likely, easy and lore friendly put Dragonmaw orcs playable as allied race, be like they are now, be with draconic features or even Draknoid than put the goat demons in the horde

everything besides that is useless

but you had to start a shitstorm

[Directionalk9]

I’m pretty certain you can’t retcon the Dragonmaw into dragon-transformers, that’s changing the lore.

[Syegfryed]

I’m pretty certain you can’t retcon the Dragonmaw into dragon-transformers, that’s changing the lore.

the outland dragonmaw already can transform into drakonid

by lore, mortal races who pass time with dragons can turn into Drakonid, by their influence

they can also take the power from then, so its not changing lore when this already happened and there are exemples before, pretty much in the range of acceptable

[Directionalk9]

the outland dragonmaw already can transform into drakonid

by lore, mortal races who pass time with dragons can turn into Drakonid, by their influence

they can also take the power from then, so it snot changing lore, when this already happened, and there are exemples in lore, tis pretty much in the range of acceptable

Have the Dragonmaw of Twilight Highlands been able to? Those are the ones we’re talking about.

[Syegfryed]

Have the Dragonmaw of Twilight Highlands been able to? Those are the ones we’re talking about.

no, at least not that we know

but like i said, its not retcon or changing lore, is actively creating new, with the already established lore