The Sin'dorei on Garithos and Lordaeron

[Aeula]

Multiple false reports over a period of time lead to the paranoid. They were accused of sabotage prior, and it had sketches that doesn't mean instructions. All consistent with observation only.



Maybe I really am wrong about this, but its way more ambiguous than you are lending to.

Just because they didn't find any Night Elves after they were reported doesn't mean they weren't there. Night Elves are masters of stealth after all. The reports were valid.

We go there to investigate another report about a night elf sighting near a sanctum that was suspiciously sabotaged. We actually find the Night Elf, after much searching and we find detailed documents about the Sanctum on their corpse, written in Dwarven.

The evidence is clear; the Alliance tried to sabotage vital Thalassian infrastructure. An act of clear hostility.

In the Ghostlands this is further proven by the fact that they've taken over an island and have sabotaged even more stuff down there.

PLUS THEY NEVER ASKED, JUST MURDERED

The Night Elves attack us on sight, the Dwarf attacks once you take him aside. You're wrong.

[Steampunkette]

Multiple false reports over a period of time lead to the paranoid. They were accused of sabotage prior, and it had sketches that doesn't mean instructions. All consistent with observation only. This is the only Sanctum with this problem. It is most likely they were observing all of them, and deducing which was most probable to fail. The Alliance have arcane too.



Maybe I really am wrong about this, but its way more ambiguous than you are lending to.

There is some ambiguity. Without someone who reads dwarven fluently, or the Nelves stating their involvement, it will always have some ambiguity.

But.

That ambiguity is not played out in the way you say it is. The level 5 quest "Malfunction at the West Sanctum" sends you to the west sanctum where Velania, who doesn't believe that there are Nelves around and that it's just the strain that caused it to break. And then you get the "Darnassian Intruders" quest which you turn in to Velania to the response:

Night elves? Here? Those rats!

Do you suppose they had anything to do with the malfunction in my sanctum? If you have any information, you'd better take it to Captain Sunbrand at once!

The Incriminating Documents you find that lead to the Dwarven Spy's death are found on the scouts that are hanging around the West Sanctum. The documents that talk about Sabotage. The documents are:

The documents contain detailed maps of different strategic buildings in Eversong Woods. A diagram of an arcane sanctum is also sketched in good detail. There seem to be numerous notes in a language you don't recognize.

So it really, -really- looks like the Nelves were sabotaging shit for months and only got caught by the player character, and the dwarven spy was there to find out the results of their sabotage to report it all.

Maybe that's not the case... but the odds are slim to none and slim's hopping a Jet to Bermuda.

[Rhymor]

The Dwarf goes hostile for the quest's sake so he is attackable, he shouts you are attacking him during the encounter, and the Night Elves don't either I believe, I had to hit them first.

IIRC, that has something to do with a lot of the quest changes that came into effect in Cataclysm. They altered a lot of the early level questing mobs to not be aggressive toward you anymore. I could be wrong, though. On the other hand, I distinctly remember getting in a good fight with one of the NE spies back in BC and if they weren't aggressive then either, I would kind of chalk that up to them pretending you didn't see them. Can't really speak on the dwarf, though.

[Aeula]

@Genkisei

Look, I know it's unusual for the Alliance to be portrayed as anything other than Paragons of virtue, but please. The quests make it painstakingly obvious that the Alliance aren't there to make friends. The Dwarf would have turned yellow if you were intended to attack him first. Night Elven spies that attack the player on sight, I know because this is how I usually find them in my playthroughs of Eversong. The sanctum sabotaged. The Invasion in the Ghostlands. Even more hostility and sabotage from Night Elven forces.

The Night Elves were sent, probably by Tyrande after she found out about Kael'thas and his alliance with the Naga, to sabotage Quel'thalas and prepare it for an invasion. The rest of the Alliance clearly okay-ed this considering they sent one of their Dwarven ambassadors to help see it through.

The Alliance made hostile moves, the Blood Elves rebuked them and threw them out of Quel'thalas and then joined the Horde.

[Steampunkette]

It would take months of data collecting to accurately predict which has the highest chance of blowing soonest.

Nah. It would just take some Leykeepers inspecting it and determining which ones are breaking down. Which is why the Leykeepers are there.

That is just you manufacturing doubt, Genkisei. Inventing a reason, whole cloth. The person who you thought best exemplified the "The Nelves aren't Saboteurs" argument turns around and calls them Rats and thinks they sabotaged it.

The Leykeeper. The person best suited to determine whether or not the thing broke naturally due to overuse or got sabotaged, -immediately- jumped to Sabotage when it was proven the Nelves were in the area.

[delus]

I'm curious if the Blood Elves resent the whole of the Alliance for the actions of Grand Marshall Garithos, or specifically humans. And if they only resent the latter, then have the humans of Stormwind and Gilneas earned their ire, or is it specifically reserved for the humans of Lordaeron? They would have served under Garithos, and, in death, served the former Thalassian Ranger General as Forsaken. Did the Blood Elves feel resentment toward the undead Forsaken up until they offered to help in Ghostlands? Do they still? Certainly Garithos didn't turn the pittance of elves who remained after Arthas' attack into canon fodder alone; and to later cage them and plan to execute them required the men (and women?) under him to assist in plotting the Sin'dorei's demise. These soldiers would have presumably been Lordaeronean, and I imagine Nathanos Marris could have been a subject of Garithos' family given his stead's location. Could Garithos come back as Forsaken or Lightforged Forsaken?

I'm just exploring plot points for Alliance Quel/Ren'dorei to resent the Horde's token humans (:

Bringing back Garithos would be possible. It's just a question of whether or not they want to do it. Hell, the corpse of Proudmore's son is back in the picture when it was supposed to be completely incenerated. In silverpine you assemble a forsaken out of parts recovered from crocolisks.

[Steampunkette]

Bringing back Garithos would be possible. It's just a question of whether or not they want to do it. Hell, the corpse of Proudmore's son is back in the picture when it was supposed to be completely incenerated. In silverpine you assemble a forsaken out of parts recovered from crocolisks.

Maaaaaaaan.... wouldn't -that- be a mindfuck?

Calia, rebuilding Lordaeron under the Light-Saken, raises the Desolate Council from the Arathi Highlands 'cause she feels obligated to the dead of Lordaeron and needs help to rule/rebuild... and then raises Garithos as the Grand Marshall of her military as it rises from the ground.

[Shibito]

Also alliance players are still salty about tbc it seems

[Sports72Xtrm]

If Blood elves hated humans as a whole, Silver Covenant and Void elves being Alliance wouldn't be a thing and they wouldn't be seeking to rejoin the human organizations like the Kirin Tor for the billionth time. Obviously humans and Elves have a complicated history, but they have a long history of friendship, more so than the recent little blips of altercations. They helped each other survive through the Troll Wars, through the Second War, against the Burning Legion. Elves fought in the Alliance army and Humans defended Quel'thalas from trolls, orcs, and demons. Hell even Arthas was known for fending off an Amani Troll raid near the borders of Quel'thalas. I mean what source is there that blood elves are salty to humans at all? If anything, humans are like Quel'thalas' neighbor who lent them sugar and invited each other for christmas dinner. Then Quel'thalas had a heroine (magic) addiction problem and felt indignant when the humans tried to get them to go to rehab and punched the Alliance in the face. Now the blood elves are that heroine addict doing tricks for the Horde who used to mug them, in order to pay their rent while their cousins the high elves and void elves became the fed up wife who couldn't take anymore of the blood elves' shit and moved out to live with their mother in the Alliance's side of town.

Which average joe blood elf was even affected by Garithos? Just Kael'thas who tried to make Quel'thalas a portal for the Burning Legion and slaughter them all and Grand Magister Rothmar-whatever who just can't get over it.

[Verdugo]

If anything, humans are like Quel'thalas' neighbor who lent them sugar and invited each other for christmas dinner. Then Quel'thalas had a heroine (magic) addiction problem and felt indignant when the humans tried to get them to go to rehab and punched the Alliance in the face. Now the blood elves are that heroine addict doing tricks for the Horde who used to mug them, in order to pay their rent while their cousins the high elves and void elves became the fed up wife who couldn't take anymore of the blood elves' shit and moved out to live with their mother in the Alliance's side of town.

Yep, this guy is still salty about TBC.

[Sangris]

Which average joe blood elf was even affected by Garithos? Just Kael'thas who tried to make Quel'thalas a portal for the Burning Legion and slaughter them all and Grand Magister Rothmar-whatever who just can't get over it.

I'll let you in on a little secret, but don't tell anyone else... one caused the other. One hint: The thing with Garithos was first. But that information is not widely known, so please be discrete about it.

[Thalassian Bob]

PLUS THEY NEVER ASKED, JUST MURDERED

Yeah, why didn't those meanie blood elves walk up and ask those openly hostile, heavily armed foreign military forces occupying their lands uninvited just what they were doing there?! Those impulsive brutes!

Come on, dude. What do you think the American military would have done if, during the Cold War, they'd found an outpost set up by the Red Army near the Hoover Dam? Or a similar situation vice versa? When someone invades your lands, you shoot first and ask questions later. Especially when you have evidence suggesting they are trying to sabotage vital infrastructure.

[Thage]

Came home to see Gin trying to stick to the idea that the Alliance was just spying on the blood elves for funsies, and that the blood elves were still allied with the Alliance after the de facto representative in Lordaeron tried to execute their crown prince without trial (something you can be damned sure Rommath made mention of on his return to Silvermoon given how far his head was up Kael's ass at the time). Then saw others rebuking his tomfoolery. Good times.

Just a reminder: if an armed invasion force is spying on vital infrastructure and attacking you on sight, those guys aren't your allies anymore and you'd be suicidal to join them rather than the guys who, at the time helped you out with nothing asked in return (Sylvanas being a total shithead and blackmailing Lor'themar later notwithstanding, since she didn't hint her continued support in Ghostlands was anything but an olive branch to her former nation at the time she sent the Forsaken to Tranquillien).

[Sports72Xtrm]

I'll let you in on a little secret, but don't tell anyone else... one caused the other. One hint: The thing with Garithos was first. But that information is not widely known, so please be discrete about it.

Humans are the parents of the blood elves' monarchy now? When was it decided that belfs get to finger point their bad decisions on someone else? Bad shit happens all the time. Jaina and Varian saw their kingdoms raised by aliens. The draenei got punked by both the blood elves and the orcs. You don't see them joining the Burning Legion and becoming a demon slave.

[Sangris]

Humans are the parents of the blood elves' monarchy now? Bad shit happens all the time. Jaina and Varian saw their kingdoms raised by aliens. The draenei got punked by both the blood elves and the orcs. You don't see them joining the Burning Legion and becoming a demon slave.

And if Garithos didn't pull his BS Kael and the Blood Elves would still merrily fight alongside the Alliance, you guys wouldn't have to cry about High Elves, and we wouldn't have all those Alliance players hating on Blood Elves because they are on the wrong faction.

[Steampunkette]

Humans are the parents of the blood elves' monarchy now? When was it decided that belfs get to finger point their bad decisions on someone else? Bad shit happens all the time. Jaina and Varian saw their kingdoms raised by aliens. The draenei got punked by both the blood elves and the orcs. You don't see them joining the Burning Legion and becoming a demon slave.

Shhhhh... Nobody tell him! *snickers*

[MrSaggins]

The only Alliance race that they don’t have reason to hate are the Draenei, whom they’re on friendly terms with.

Sin'dorei may not hate the Draenei, but I think it's clear there is bad blood between them over Kael's moves in Outland. The Aldor/Scryer feud, and the Blood Elves in the Draenei starting zone.

As for Garithos himself, he wasn’t just one man, there were plenty of Humans and Dwarves who followed him and enabled him to do what he did.

Great point about the Dwarves!

(a lovely notion everyone forgets... stormwind's massive population needs to be getting paid/fed SOMEHOW)

The necessity of raising and making war for resources and survival is a lovely trope, and hard to argue with. Honestly, my favorite. "I need to kill you to live. If I die, I've lost nothing."

actually i want to say it's stated that Garithos had a number of friends in interesting places that allowed for his promotion to the position he had.

So Gairthos was just someone's nephew? HAHAHAHAHA!!!

So there you have it. The elves that Garithos imprisoned and tried to slaughter might in fact be argued to be the amongst the last Sin'dorei who still had a positive opinion of humans, while the rest of their race were left under the impression that the one kindness they'd done to humans, teaching them magic, led to their downfall. This is what truly drove them away from the Alliance and the Humans, regardless of where they are from, not just one slight committed by Garithos.

You raise interesting points. So essentially Elven superiority looks down on humans as parents to children, and as the orcs, Tauren and trolls aren't heavily into the arcane the Sin'dorei threw their lot in with the dirt-worshipping savage races of the Horde because their comparatively adolescent understanding of magic proved less threatening to Azeroth?

Grand Magister Rommath was a member of Kael's retinue during the Third War, so he in particular distrusts the Alliance, and he in particular still holds a grudge against the Kirin Tor for their complicity in Garitho's attempt to execute Kael'thas and the other blood elves imprisoned in the Violet Hold. He brought that all up again during the Purge of Dalaran.

Great point.

The Night Elves were sent, probably by Tyrande after she found out about Kael'thas and his alliance with the Naga, to sabotage Quel'thalas and prepare it for an invasion. e.

Absolutely. Let's not forget there were Blood Elf spies in her neighborhood for the Draenei starting quests.

Calia, rebuilding Lordaeron under the Light-Saken...

Love it.

[Theoris]

You don't see them joining the Burning Legion and becoming a demon slave.

Reminder that Kael'thas initially refused to join the Legion, but Kil'jaeden influences events to make him more desperate, leading Kael to start draining fel to sate his magic addiction which made him more easy to manipulate.

[Aeula]

Sin'dorei may not hate the Draenei, but I think it's clear there is bad blood between them over Kael's moves in Outland. The Aldor/Scryer feud, and the Blood Elves in the Draenei starting zone.

Times have changed since then (As shown by the Blood Elves helping them in AU Shattrath and being the main Horde force on Argus) but yes, during TBC the two races weren't on friendly terms.

[Kathranis]

Times have changed since then (As shown by the Blood Elves helping them in AU Shattrath and being the main Horde force on Argus) but yes, during TBC the two races weren't on friendly terms.

I would say by the end of BC the two races had more or less resolved their differences, faction obligations aside, as evidenced by the coming together of the Shattered Sun Offensive.

In fact, of all the cross-faction relationships, it seems to me that the blood elves and draenei are probably two of the least contentious races in modern times, given their now-mutual connection to the Light and the Naaru via the reignition of the Sunwell.