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  1. #361
    Stealthed Defender unbound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moozart View Post
    You sound like all the butt hurt Guild officers (loot council) that can no longer divvy up loot to themselves first.
    rofl

    That would put it directly in line with the OP's comment about ninja-looting. Something that happens so infrequently, I sincerely hope that isn't what people are trying to address.

    I have been in close to a dozen guilds over the lifespan of WoW as well as several dozens of runs as a PUG in a guild run and have never personally encountered such guild loot distribution. It simply can't be that common.

    However, in all of those guild runs (and being a PUG in a guild run), I have consistently seen loot distributed to those that can most use it.

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Dottywotty View Post
    What are they designed for then?
    It should be designed for PuGs in the first place.

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    I'm just going to keep going with my Tinfoil hat theory: They fucked up coding so bad for Azerite Gear that they can't hand it out via ML so they removed it.
    Rofl, that's actually a funny theory. I doubt it's true but it's fun to think about.

  4. #364
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by LookingForGroup View Post
    It should be designed for PuGs in the first place.
    Guilds should be designed for pugs? Aside from being a troll account you are not even making sense in replies ... or a bot account that didn't pass the Turing test?

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Loot is random thus we must speculate the drops. Your arguments on behalf of the change are also speculative "would could should" scenarios so by your own logic they're pointless points to be made.

    Forcing PL on everyone is a bad change overall, thats what the facts state. You can base your opinion on your hopes and dreams as much as you like, just stop spouting them to anybody else than yourself in front of a mirror.
    we are on internet forums - 99,99 % of stuff written in those threads is pointless. at the end of day you cannot know for a fact if its good or bad - noone can - we will see the effect when its implemented in game - sometimes some stuff needs to be forced on people for the good of community - would you support removal of punishment for stuff like stealing or raping ? after all we are all educated people we should know better. andyet those laws need to be put in to keep society in order.

    the abusement of ML went on for way to long - and it had to be stopped by blizzard since way to many people were actively staying away from guilds and choosing inferior raiding in pugs just because of 1 single reason - to have fair shot at loot. and those are the actual facts that you cant discuss with supported by data blizzard have - yours is opinion based on statements of coupld of hundred of people - they have date based on hundreds of htousands of players who choose to raid in pugs even though they are ultra shit - just because there nobody can decide who gets which loot but they.

    blizzard has to bring people back into guilds else wow is nothing by online single player game and players are seen no different then bots. at the end of day what you be the difference if you filled the raid with 19 npcs and 1 player ? the interactions would be the same as in pugs. blizzard had no other choice even if it comes with reduction of "freedom of choice"

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    we are on internet forums - 99,99 % of stuff written in those threads is pointless. at the end of day you cannot know for a fact if its good or bad - noone can - we will see the effect when its implemented in game - sometimes some stuff needs to be forced on people for the good of community - would you support removal of punishment for stuff like stealing or raping ? after all we are all educated people we should know better. andyet those laws need to be put in to keep society in order.

    the abusement of ML went on for way to long - and it had to be stopped by blizzard since way to many people were actively staying away from guilds and choosing inferior raiding in pugs just because of 1 single reason - to have fair shot at loot. and those are the actual facts that you cant discuss with supported by data blizzard have - yours is opinion based on statements of coupld of hundred of people - they have date based on hundreds of htousands of players who choose to raid in pugs even though they are ultra shit - just because there nobody can decide who gets which loot but they.

    blizzard has to bring people back into guilds else wow is nothing by online single player game and players are seen no different then bots. at the end of day what you be the difference if you filled the raid with 19 npcs and 1 player ? the interactions would be the same as in pugs. blizzard had no other choice even if it comes with reduction of "freedom of choice"
    But I can state the facts and listen to them rather than your personal opinion thats based on dreams and nightmares.

    We're educated people enough to know that there will be less intelligent people that need the fear of punishment, its why those laws and punishments are in place. It's also why ML is a better option over PL because those less intelligent/skilled players will get the rewards just the same no matter how good/bad they played. Human race has thrived because of competition and personal gain, none of which can happen without rewards. The more intelligent people will think ahead of time (in this case guilds that use ML the proper way) and get even more gains vs the people who abuse ML and only get short term rewards.

    The people who abused ML won't stop though, they'll find ways such as forcing people to trade items that they can. You're probably going to call "but then those people can leave the guild!" but you're forgetting that the same applies now, if a guild abuses ML then the ones being abused could just leave the guild just as well yet they don't.

    If ML was still usable by everyone then you'd have a point, pugs did abuse ML etc. which is why Blizzard changed the system to be for guilds only. The moment you join the guild you agree to their method of loot distribution, don't like it? then leave.

    If there actually was that many people who hate ML then there'd be way more guilds that use PL all the time. That just isn't the case, guilds wan't to clear content faster and you do that by rewarding players who 1) show up, 2) do the mechanics and 3) do the dps. Simply getting better at the game would get people more rewards with ML system, yet they don't because they feel entitled to everything without putting in the effort.

    Bots and players are very different and if we actually had raids with 19 bots and just one player, where that one player would actually have to do the mechanics and do appropriate dps to kill the boss then we'd have a lot more capable players among us. That would actually be beneficial for the game rather than having systems such as LFR in the game.

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    I'm just going to keep going with my Tinfoil hat theory: They fucked up coding so bad for Azerite Gear that they can't hand it out via ML so they removed it.
    They're ramping down on WoW. Part of the process is cutting costs associated with support, and one of the main ones was dealing with loot issues. By making everything personal loot, they considerably reduce the amount of support needed in the game when there is either an intentional (ninja loot) or unintentional loot issue.

  8. #368
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by maomoa View Post
    They're ramping down on WoW. Part of the process is cutting costs associated with support, and one of the main ones was dealing with loot issues. By making everything personal loot, they considerably reduce the amount of support needed in the game when there is either an intentional (ninja loot) or unintentional loot issue.
    Because there were gazylions of loot tickets opened under ML within guilds ... yeh ... legit.

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by Moozart View Post
    ITs is the way its going to be. I am not sure why you think they have changed their stance on this. It is 100% going live. You sound like all the butt hurt Guild officers (loot council) that can no longer divvy up loot to themselves first.
    You sound like the guy who joined a garbage toxic guild and then blamed the game for whatever happened after.

    That shit happened in one guild that I’ve been in and I left pretty quickly once I realized it was happening. Healer was a lootwhore and anytime a good healer trinket dropped she’d make a huge deal over it so these trinkets always went her way. Was my fault and my problem for joining this guild, an entire loot system doesn’t need to be changed because of my mistake.

    People who blame the game for them making the mistake of joining a bad guild and not leaving after are part of the problem. It’s too bad that personal loot brings even more problems to the table like enabling selfish players to be selfish, loot whores to be loot whores, etc. The option to have master loot or personal loot in a mythic raid setting was completely fine.

  10. #370
    ML worked fine since the dawn of WoW, there really was no reason to remove it. You always had the choice to join groups/guilds who used it or look elsewhere, absolutely nobody had it forced on them.

    It has nothing but downsides, including making the raid race to #1 RNG based on who got the correct drops on the correct spec/classes in their raid for progression.

    If you have felt "abused" by ML that is entirely on you and your laziness to find a different guild.

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    You sound like the guy who joined a garbage toxic guild and then blamed the game for whatever happened after.

    That shit happened in one guild that I’ve been in and I left pretty quickly once I realized it was happening. Healer was a lootwhore and anytime a good healer trinket dropped she’d make a huge deal over it so these trinkets always went her way. Was my fault and my problem for joining this guild, an entire loot system doesn’t need to be changed because of my mistake.

    People who blame the game for them making the mistake of joining a bad guild and not leaving after are part of the problem. It’s too bad that personal loot brings even more problems to the table like enabling selfish players to be selfish, loot whores to be loot whores, etc. The option to have master loot or personal loot in a mythic raid setting was completely fine.
    I have raided with the same individuals for the most part since Vanilla got most of Naxx done then. Even now we tend to finish Mythic raids pretty early on in their life cycles. My group has never personally had those issues, as I said in multiple other post we gear our DPS first, tanks and then healers and have always run 4+ groups with alts to funnel gear to main so gear has never been an issue. New recruits(the few that we may need) are usually already at least partially mythic geared before we even consider taking them in Mythic with us anyways so never usually any loot issues on that front either.

    The forums have been plagued with "loot council" horror stories as far back as I can remember, the fact that people pretend its never been a thing has their head in the sand. Just like in life just because its never happened to you does not mean its not happening.

  12. #372
    Deleted
    I am well aware of the guild dynamics that are a direct outgrowth of the ML system. I totally get why all these guys are panicking because things won't be the same for them and they derive satisfaction from social power-plays and not so much the game of WoW. For the rest of us who just enjoy raiding in a computer game it's gonna be neutral or positive change.

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Moozart View Post
    I have raided with the same individuals for the most part since Vanilla got most of Naxx done then. Even now we tend to finish Mythic raids pretty early on in their life cycles. My group has never personally had those issues, as I said in multiple other post we gear our DPS first, tanks and then healers and have always run 4+ groups with alts to funnel gear to main so gear has never been an issue. New recruits(the few that we may need) are usually already at least partially mythic geared before we even consider taking them in Mythic with us anyways so never usually any loot issues on that front either.

    The forums have been plagued with "loot council" horror stories as far back as I can remember, the fact that people pretend its never been a thing has their head in the sand. Just like in life just because its never happened to you does not mean its not happening.
    Did you read the second part of my post? Apparently not.

    I specifically said it happened to me. I dealt with it like any normal player should and left the guild. I didn’t blame the game or the loot council system for joining a toxic guild with bad leadership, I blamed myself and moved on. Improved how I look for guilds and I eventually joined an amazing one with none of these issues (and also fairly hardcore).

    I never once said these issues don’t happen. Of course they do. We’re humans, put anything in the hands of humans and you’ll get both negative and positive results. That doesn’t mean they need to completely remove the option for master looter and force people into a loot system with the same amount of flaws maybe even more.

    I’d be fine with it if PL actually improved the game. It doesn’t. Hell, removing ML hurts guilds that can’t be picky with players like my guild can or any decent mythic guild can. They have to take what they can get and I can guarantee you’re going to see a lot of people upset with personal loot as it enables a different type of toxicity in players like being selfish and loot whoring.

    The option to use both should be there. If you join a guild and you know they’re using ML, maybe research into that guild a bit OR dont join a guild with ML if you can’t handle yourself properly and leave if things turn toxic.

  14. #374
    The threads like this are exactly why ML should be removed. It is toxic.

  15. #375
    Deleted
    Since they are removing ML,personal loot should have restriction removed on trading higher ilvl items,why would I keep an item that might be higher ilvl but with shit stats over giving it to someone in raid group that will benefit more from it. Makes no sense.

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by Alhazred View Post
    Since they are removing ML,personal loot should have restriction removed on trading higher ilvl items,why would I keep an item that might be higher ilvl but with shit stats over giving it to someone in raid group that will benefit more from it. Makes no sense.
    I think personal loot trading items should be removed either.

  17. #377
    I think I would prefer a raid currency for killing things to purchase all my gear, and then periodically something will drop from bosses that would be essentially "one less piece to worry about".

    That said, I tend to do poorly with gear acquisition at the mercy of personal loot. And... I'm not afraid to say, I'm not the mother fuckin march of dimes, so if I continuously kill shit, and never get anything for my efforts, I'll play something else.
    "The fatal flaw of every plan, no matter how well planned, is the assumption that you know more than your enemy."

  18. #378
    Removing the trade restriction on higher item levels needs to happen.

  19. #379
    Immortal Tharkkun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    Did you read the second part of my post? Apparently not.

    I specifically said it happened to me. I dealt with it like any normal player should and left the guild. I didn’t blame the game or the loot council system for joining a toxic guild with bad leadership, I blamed myself and moved on. Improved how I look for guilds and I eventually joined an amazing one with none of these issues (and also fairly hardcore).

    I never once said these issues don’t happen. Of course they do. We’re humans, put anything in the hands of humans and you’ll get both negative and positive results. That doesn’t mean they need to completely remove the option for master looter and force people into a loot system with the same amount of flaws maybe even more.

    I’d be fine with it if PL actually improved the game. It doesn’t. Hell, removing ML hurts guilds that can’t be picky with players like my guild can or any decent mythic guild can. They have to take what they can get and I can guarantee you’re going to see a lot of people upset with personal loot as it enables a different type of toxicity in players like being selfish and loot whoring.

    The option to use both should be there. If you join a guild and you know they’re using ML, maybe research into that guild a bit OR dont join a guild with ML if you can’t handle yourself properly and leave if things turn toxic.
    The master loot system allowed these problems to happen. It put your gaming experience in the hands of toxic players and potentially could ruin an entire week of fun for you. You could've gone through 10+ guilds until you found one that did it correctly. You just got lucky. How would that be enjoyable at all?
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  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    The master loot system allowed these problems to happen. It put your gaming experience in the hands of toxic players and potentially could ruin an entire week of fun for you. You could've gone through 10+ guilds until you found one that did it correctly. You just got lucky. How would that be enjoyable at all?
    Can you explain how you think you were forced to raid in a guild that uses master loot?

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