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  1. #641
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    My point was simply that I would applaud things that I thought were good, and criticize things I thought were bad.
    When have you ever criticized anything, other than wagging your finger a little before shifting your position to defend what you wagged at?

  2. #642
    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    But you don't. You defend a man that is causing massive damage to the country you live in. For the record I even agree with you on two of those points. I like both of his supreme court picks, and I agree we need to support Israel (I don't agree that Trump has done that though). I even like a few parts of the Tax Bill. However, the vile, racist, corrupt, dishonest train wreck that has been happening every day since before he was inaugurated is indefensible.
    If I think he's doing something good, sure, I'll defend the good thing he's doing. But I don't defend him as a person. Like I said, he should be applauded for things that are good, and criticized for things that are bad.

    I can't remember what the context was, I think it was in regards to a show with Steven Crowder, but Joe Rogan said something that I keep in mind, and it was something along the lines of, "We weren't having a conversation, we were just firing off talking points back and forth." I feel like this is going off into the latter. Some of the last few replies had so much to unpack, so many talking points to break down, that it feels like a missile battery of talking points were fired off. That's not a conversation.

    And further, this is becoming more about me personally than about Trump, and I don't think that's what the thread is about.

  3. #643
    So I just sat and let all of this sink in for a moment (couple days) and here is my opinion on it.

    The way Trump acted at the Helsinki Meeting was treasonous and disgraceful. Doesn't matter if you vote D,R or 3rd party. After that if your still a Trump supporter then you are willfully being ignorant and are Unamerican in every since of the word.

    Nothing more needs to be said.
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  4. #644
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    If I think he's doing something good, sure, I'll defend the good thing he's doing. But I don't defend him as a person. Like I said, he should be applauded for things that are good, and criticized for things that are bad.
    See, I take issue with this. It's always extremely difficult to separate the person from the policy in politics, as policies are often informed by ones personal beliefs, but specifically with Trump he doesn't have any policy positions that aren't informed by his personal beliefs. Literally every one of them.

    Embassy move? Adoration and praise to sate his ego. There was no strategic or diplomatic justification.

    Tax cuts? Similar, though also something he could slap his name on and call a "win". Again, the general sentiment before and after from economists was this is at best a pointless tax cut that inflates deficits, and thus far that's how this is playing out. A corporate handout that doesn't benefit the working class voter.

    Judicial appointments? Have...you seen the people Trump is nominating? Because he places loyalty over competency or qualifications, he's filled key positions including those that recommend nominees with loyalists who routinely pick extremely unqualified judges. I don't think the American BAR has ever given out so many "unanimously not qualified" rulings on nominees in any other administration during their full term, and Trump got 4 within a year.

    Trump is open about the fact that his beliefs drive his policy positions, to boot. The "I can support the policies, but not the man." argument always strikes me as the cowards way out to support Trump. You (the royal you) get to claim that you don't like his behavior so you can feel good about having the "moral high ground", but you're more than happy to support him if he occasionally pushing a policy that benefits you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...gh-for-us.html

    And of course today's pathetic "clarification" was "enough" for many GOP officials.

  5. #645
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    See, I take issue with this. It's always extremely difficult to separate the person from the policy in politics, as policies are often informed by ones personal beliefs, but specifically with Trump he doesn't have any policy positions that aren't informed by his personal beliefs. Literally every one of them.

    Embassy move? Adoration and praise to sate his ego. There was no strategic or diplomatic justification.

    Tax cuts? Similar, though also something he could slap his name on and call a "win". Again, the general sentiment before and after from economists was this is at best a pointless tax cut that inflates deficits, and thus far that's how this is playing out. A corporate handout that doesn't benefit the working class voter.
    If I cure cancer because I want attention and fame, have I done a good thing or a bad thing for the country? I'm not so concerned about the impetus, only the result.

    But about the tax cut not benefiting working class voters, I work in construction and everyone I work with acknowledges the extra $40-50 they're seeing in their paycheck. One of them, a super anti-Trump guy, thought back in November that Trump was trying to increase how much gets taken out of his paycheck in taxes. He said he heard about it on the news. I told him that wasn't true, and the conversation didn't really go anywhere. But even he is pretty happy about it.

    Trump is open about the fact that his beliefs drive his policy positions, to boot. The "I can support the policies, but not the man." argument always strikes me as the cowards way out to support Trump. You (the royal you) get to claim that you don't like his behavior so you can feel good about having the "moral high ground", but you're more than happy to support him if he occasionally pushing a policy that benefits you.
    Listen, I'm not going to lie, I get warm fuzzies in my heart everyday that I somehow, through some miracle, dodged Hillary. I still can't wrap my head around it. So maybe there's a small part of me that wants to support him. Heck, I even said it way back in early 2017 on the board that "he deserves a chance to succeed" (same post I supported his impeachment and removal from office if he was guilty of criminal collusion regarding the election). But going back to my earlier example, if he cured cancer would it be untoward to applaud that? Would I be forced by his behavior to denounce him totally, in spite of his new cancer cure? No, I'd decry his behavior at the same time that I applauded him for the good thing that he did.

  6. #646
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    If I cure cancer because I want attention and fame, have I done a good thing or a bad thing for the country? I'm not so concerned about the impetus, only the result.
    Only if you've actually cured cancer. You don't get credit for just roughly hacking out the tumor with a meat cleaver and leaving a bloody gouge and claiming you totally fixed it.

  7. #647
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    If I cure cancer because I want attention and fame, have I done a good thing or a bad thing for the country? I'm not so concerned about the impetus, only the result.
    A good thing. But a good thing directly tied to you personally rather than any formless, detached notion of "policy". It would be a good thing, but for less good reasons.

    As with Trump, though I think you'll have a hard time arguing that any of these moves are objectively "good".

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    But about the tax cut not benefiting working class voters, I work in construction and everyone I work with acknowledges the extra $40-50 they're seeing in their paycheck. One of them, a super anti-Trump guy, thought back in November that Trump was trying to increase how much gets taken out of his paycheck in taxes. He said he heard about it on the news. I told him that wasn't true, and the conversation didn't really go anywhere. But even he is pretty happy about it.
    So...the guy is misinformed. And yeah, a small increase that's negligible in the broader economy. Again, the overwhelming benefits did not go to the working class as Trump and the GOP promised - they've gone to the wealthy and corporations who are largely spending that money not on increased wages, expanded hiring, or more "goods" to stimulate the economy, bur rather on stock buybacks and additional investments that only really benefit them personally (because corporations are people for some stupid fucking reason).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    Listen, I'm not going to lie, I get warm fuzzies in my heart everyday that I somehow, through some miracle, dodged Hillary. I still can't wrap my head around it.
    Yes, because a pretty standard, boring, predictable president who wouldn't be undermining our alliances, starting global trade wars, cozying up to dictators, and constantly undermining the US intelligence community and federal law enforcement would have been so terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    But going back to my earlier example, if he cured cancer would it be untoward to applaud that?
    This isn't even a hypothetical worth entertaining because there's literally going to be no analog for the presidency.

  8. #648
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    Listen, I'm not going to lie, I get warm fuzzies in my heart everyday that I somehow, through some miracle, dodged Hillary. I still can't wrap my head around it. So maybe there's a small part of me that wants to support him. Heck, I even said it way back in early 2017 on the board that "he deserves a chance to succeed" (same post I supported his impeachment and removal from office if he was guilty of criminal collusion regarding the election). But going back to my earlier example, if he cured cancer would it be untoward to applaud that? Would I be forced by his behavior to denounce him totally, in spite of his new cancer cure? No, I'd decry his behavior at the same time that I applauded him for the good thing that he did.
    I am of the opinion that there are no balancing of scales so to speak if a serial killer cured cancer and saved millions of lives he would still be a serial killer because curing cancer wouldn't matter to the families of the people he killed. I also think the same way about death I don't think being dead erases what you did in life but maybe that is just me. So I understand how some people can cheer at him doing the things they like but the overall package should stink to high heaven to anyone with a nose. I think most democrats would still feel this way if Hillary had won happy that we dodged a bullet but still think that Hillary is horrible I take issue with people who think that Trump is the second coming.

  9. #649
    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    But you don't. You defend a man that is causing massive damage to the country you live in. For the record I even agree with you on two of those points. I like both of his supreme court picks, and I agree we need to support Israel (I don't agree that Trump has done that though). I even like a few parts of the Tax Bill. However, the vile, racist, corrupt, dishonest train wreck that has been happening every day since before he was inaugurated is indefensible.
    Just to put this in context, about two months ago, along party lines with Gorsuch being the tie breaking vote. They ruled that your employer could force you to sign away your right to due process as part of an employment contract. They ruled that mandatory arbitration clauses in employment contracts are legally binding when arbitration is not fair or impartial and rules the vast majority of the time in favor of the company who is paying for them otherwise the company will dump them and find another arbiter who will.

    That means you could get injured on the job, they deny you disability and fire you and you could not legally sue them or engage in any class action lawsuits.

    That means the company could fire you because you were black, white, asian, gay, bi, trans, disabled, or a veteran and actually withhold your entire last paycheck and you could not legally sue them or engage in a class action lawsuit.

    That means they can break any law they want and as an employee you could not legally sue them in court over it as your employment contract denies you that right and the supreme court has ruled that clause is legally enforceable when it has been ruled unenforceable in many areas because it denies the workers the right to due process under the law.

    And you support the pick who ruled that?


    The next guy nominated thinks that net neutrality is crap and thinks that your ISP should have the right to block access to other sites claiming free speech when it isn't to anyone who knows how the internet works.

    The next guy nominated thinks that any charges levied against the president should be withheld while he is in office, basically allowing him to remain in office and actively breaking the law and not being able to hold him accountable to any of it till after he is out of office.

    The next guy nominated, I remember hearing a story of a previous case he presided over (Correct me if I am wrong because I did not verify this one), where a trucker was stranded in sub-zero temperature and was about to freeze to death if he remained and his company was trying to sentence him to die forcing him to stay with the freight even after he got frostbite and he left to his own survival. The company fired him for choosing survival instead of waiting out the night with the freight. The guy nominated sided with the company for firing him rather than the guy who would have died if he had followed the order.


    And you think either of those are good picks? To me, they have already proven mentally incapable of performing their duties to a satisfactory level and will actively sell out this nation and their job along party lines putting ideology above reality even if lives or the well being of this nation is at stake.
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  10. #650
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    Listen, I'm not going to lie, I get warm fuzzies in my heart everyday that I somehow, through some miracle, dodged Hillary.
    Don't start celebrating yet, when the full scope of Trump's shenanigans is finally revealed, there's a chance that Hillary may take that as a cue to make another run. After all, she would have won the election if not for the Russian interference, or our broken electoral system, or the fact that half our voter base is a bunch of racist idiots, so it wouldn't be shocking at all if she ran again and won.

  11. #651
    Quote Originally Posted by Macaquerie View Post
    Don't start celebrating yet, when the full scope of Trump's shenanigans is finally revealed, there's a chance that Hillary may take that as a cue to make another run. After all, she would have won the election if not for the Russian interference, or our broken electoral system, or the fact that half our voter base is a bunch of racist idiots, so it wouldn't be shocking at all if she ran again and won.
    Dear lord, don't jinx us. Woman cheated in two primaries and snubbed her own voters during the course thinking they had no choice but to vote for her. Last thing I want is to see her run again.

    Also, it would be political suicide for the Democrats to back her again. No way she could run without the rumors of her possibly cheating again would ruin it and run many voters off again. Even if she did do it legit this time for a change, she is tainted and toxic and many voters would be turned off and suspecting a repeat of last time and no amount of beta males shouting Bernie Bros will change that or make her more palatable, it would just run the voter base off more.
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  12. #652
    Must feel good for all those republican congressmen to see their president choose Russia over all the other countries. Reagan and Bush would be so proud. This is one of the worst things ever done by a President. It is basically admitting to selling out to one of our greatest enemies for decades.

    I'll say it again, we are going to be allies with Russia, NK, and Syria by the end of his term. Completely flipping sides. Any Republican that can stomach that has betrayed their party and their country.

    Then again, Russia is kind of the conservative right wing utopia at this point.
    Last edited by Zoldor; 2018-07-18 at 03:22 AM.

  13. #653
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoldor View Post
    Must feel good for all those republican congressmen to see their president choose Russia over all the other countries. Reagan and Bush would be so proud. This is one of the worst things ever done by a President. It is basically admitting to selling out to one of our greatest enemies for decades.

    I'll say it again, we are going to be allies with Russia, NK, and Syria by the end of his term. Completely flipping sides. Any Republican that can stomach that has betrayed their party and their country.
    Considering the republican party has been choosing donors and their own political power over their own nation for years, this shouldn't be too much of a stretch for them.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
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  14. #654
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Considering the republican party has been choosing donors and their own political power over their own nation for years, this shouldn't be too much of a stretch for them.
    True, the Saudis have been buying our country for years to fight their wars. Same with Israel. So this isn't that much of a shock. Who ever helps get the politician in power gets the favor. Putin is now the most powerful man on earth and the US President has cowed to Russia. Impressive. The guy is having a hell of a first half of a term. I'm enjoying watching all his supporters support this. I guess most of them forgot the whole cold war.

  15. #655
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoldor View Post
    True, the Saudis have been buying our country for years to fight their wars. Same with Israel. So this isn't that much of a shock. Who ever helps get the politician in power gets the favor. Putin is now the most powerful man on earth and the US President has cowed to Russia. Impressive. The guy is having a hell of a first half of a term. I'm enjoying watching all his supporters support this. I guess most of them forgot the whole cold war.
    I know plenty personally who support him, they don't know about this stuff and think it is fake to avoid supporting it.

    Brought up when Trump first took office how he said in his thank you tour he never meant it when he said draining the swamp and where he admitted to firing Comey over the Russia investigation with him doing it live, on camera to google. They still wouldn't believe it.

    Most of them don't accept this is even happening to have a view on it as Fox News refuses to mention hardly anything about it.
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  16. #656
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    I know plenty personally who support him, they don't know about this stuff and think it is fake to avoid supporting it.

    Brought up when Trump first took office how he said in his thank you tour he never meant it when he said draining the swamp and where he admitted to firing Comey over the Russia investigation with him doing it live, on camera to google. They still wouldn't believe it.

    Most of them don't accept this is even happening to have a view on it as Fox News refuses to mention hardly anything about it.
    It is pretty impressive to watch propaganda work and confirmation bias in action by all of them. Also, impressive they just take the word of a man who has openly been a liar since the 80s and is regarded as one of the best con men of all time. Oh well, most of them would rather keep their heads down till the bombs hit their houses or something directly affects their family personally. They are usually those folks who look the other way as long as it isn't happening to them.

    The people who don't understand a protest after someone is shot, but would hold up the day for every person in the check out line to get an expired coupon to work.
    Last edited by Zoldor; 2018-07-18 at 03:36 AM.

  17. #657
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoldor View Post
    It is pretty impressive to watch propaganda work and confirmation bias in action by all of them.
    Hannity should just be honest about how he feels about Trump.

    A Fetus is not a person under the 14th amendment.

    Christians are Forced Birth Fascists against Human Rights who indoctrinate and groom children. Prove me wrong.

  18. #658
    why is he talking about Hillary's mails? Is that even relevant to the question?

  19. #659
    Quote Originally Posted by Gref View Post
    why is he talking about Hillary's mails? Is that even relevant to the question?
    It is always a relevant question in Trump's presidency, especially when you're trying to get a job next to him so you can gobble Putin's balls while Trump slobs on Putin's knob.

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  20. #660
    Quote Originally Posted by Dontrike View Post
    It is always a relevant question in Trump's presidency, especially when you're trying to get a job next to him so you can gobble Putin's balls while Trump slobs on Putin's knob.
    I was actually talking about Trump but well your statement is also applies for Trump as well as Sean.

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