Remove crushing/critical hits from bosses to make druid/paladin tanks viable

[anon5123]

I could have sworn there was defense leather but maybe I am thinking of TBC.

There was no defense leather in TBC, because druids got a talent that made them defense capped. (reduced chance to be crit by 6%)

[Healasouhait]

Even with the removal of crushing/critical hits, pal prot aren't viable for multiple reasons to tank bosses (mana issues, gear issues). Druids are a bit different but still not viable for your first MC (a Druid in my guild tanked ZG/AQ20/MC but we were vastly out gearing those raids).
But the biggest issue with this thread are all those guys wanting this change or that change. None of it will happen boys. You really have to realize they are not making a Vanilla 2.0 with a sudden balance between classes and enhanc sham toping the dps meter.
However, with all the theorycrafts out there and the fact that we are not newbies anymore, every class will have a spot in a raid.

you could easily take 10 Ret Pallys and 10 Balance Druids in your 40-man raid and you would clear everything without issues up to at least BWL

just like he said. Balance Druid will have a spot in a raid (if you're not in a guild that wants to crush the content)

[Deleted]

There was no defense leather in TBC, because druids got a talent that made them defense capped. (reduced chance to be crit by 6%)

Of course there was and the talent was "only" 3%.

[Sierra85]

why even have vanilla servers at all if your just going to change everything

[Deficineiron]

Yes, that was in TBC. You couldn't cap in Vanilla, and that's where the line gets fuzzy because 1.12 is practically TBC balance without its itemization. It's only a matter of adding the items and minor tweaks on abilities to make Pallies and Druids tank viable.

It won't happen though, there's too much pushback against it.

in that case, they may work out a rollout set of 'tweaks' that they dont do at release to avoid pushback from the vocal minority, but intend to do to accomplish any number of class balance issues as well as implementation of other changes they eventually intend to do.

- - - Updated - - -

why even have vanilla servers at all if your just going to change everything

the operating premise will be, ultimately, make a more accessible game for a much broader prospective playerbase - this is expected to translate to more revenue.

[Thimagryn]

in that case, they may work out a rollout set of 'tweaks' that they dont do at release to avoid pushback from the vocal minority, but intend to do to accomplish any number of class balance issues as well as implementation of other changes they eventually intend to do

Thats the big question though. What does Blizz intend to do? So far they intend to listen to the no change vocal community. Theres too many wanting to keep the 1 tank class meta. Thats just the sad reality, so let em have it. I say fight back passively by purposefully not rolling druids or pallies and pushing the meta towards the 4-5 core classes and making a clear case how bad balance favours the OP classes.

[Deficineiron]

Thats the big question though. What does Blizz intend to do? So far they intend to listen to the no change vocal community. Theres too many wanting to keep the 1 tank class meta. Thats just the sad reality, so let em have it. I say fight back passively by purposefully not rolling druids or pallies and pushing the meta towards the 4-5 core classes and making a clear case how bad balance favours the OP classes.

i think blizzard intends to not say anything to upset the nochanges faction as they are vocal and we are still in early pre-release buzz. I do not for one second believe, internally, they are taking the 'ok no changes ever' view. they plan ahead on sneaky stuff. there is zero upside for them saying, today, 'ok yes we are class balancing' or 'yes we think tokens is classic is a sure thing' or 'instant 60 boost is a great idea for classic' or whatever.

at some point they are going to have to start spelling out the great new ideas they have, but it may be after they set a formal release date, as they will need to start adjusting expectations and managing that shift.

[Healasouhait]

i think blizzard intends to not say anything to upset the nochanges faction as they are vocal and we are still in early pre-release buzz. I do not for one second believe, internally, they are taking the 'ok no changes ever' view. they plan ahead on sneaky stuff. there is zero upside for them saying, today, 'ok yes we are class balancing' or 'yes we think tokens is classic is a sure thing' or 'instant 60 boost is a great idea for classic' or whatever.

at some point they are going to have to start spelling out the great new ideas they have, but it may be after they set a formal release date, as they will need to start adjusting expectations and managing that shift.

So in your opinion, they're planning on making a Vanilla 2.0 (if I may) with a bunch of changes being plausible like class balance, double spec, tokens, automatic loot, guild banks and more?
That seems a bit far stretch to me. And a big load of changes for just one game. Unless they're planning to continue on after Classic and release a TBC 2.0 and so on, following the idea of "What we could have done to make it better", that's a risky move.

[Akka]

Pally don't have taunt in classic so they can never seriously tank

Taunt was rarely used because most bosses were immune to it, so meh.

- - - Updated - - -

Nobody ever doubted that.

The point of argument is the viability of druid tanks.

What's funny is that the same people who claim loud and strong that non-warrior tanks "aren't viable" tend to be the ones also complaining the loudest that the game will be "too easy".

If the game is "too easy", then druids and pala might be non-optimal, but hardly non-viable. If the game is stringent enough that these spec are non-viable, how the game can be "too easy" ?
Pick one.

[Deficineiron]

So in your opinion, they're planning on making a Vanilla 2.0 (if I may) with a bunch of changes being plausible like class balance, double spec, tokens, automatic loot, guild banks and more?
That seems a bit far stretch to me. And a big load of changes for just one game. Unless they're planning to continue on after Classic and release a TBC 2.0 and so on, following the idea of "What we could have done to make it better", that's a risky move.

That is more or less where my opinion is at. Not saying every single detail you list but you have the general sense of it. Today's blizzard makes games that are more accessible to a broader group of potential players than they did in the past, with emphasis on microtransactions. I just cannot see classic, as-was, getting past that corporate philosophy. So much of what classic was is the same stuff blizzard has been erasing and re-erasing for a decade, both in design as well as the reversal of their position on microtransactions.

[Bigbazz]

If you want to tank then play a Warrior, otherwise suck it up.

[bloodwulf]

Could Vanilla not be the idealistic perfect specimen of the game that some people expected? Why ask for Vanilla to be remade, then ask to change things, from small QOL things to massive things like removing Crushing Blows and Crits from bosses???? I thought Vanilla was exactly what people wanted, or did people let their nostalgia color their thoughts, then when implementation is pending suddenly realize that some things could be better???

I chuckle at the thought that people like OP exist, who are not happy to be given one thing, but want to have that gift molded into their false vision.

[kaintk]

in a word: NO!

if you can't handle the fact that for raiding your only option is a warrior tank then this is not going to be for you, if you want to play a paladin get used to the idea of being a buff bot and healer/support, and forget playing a druid of any capacity outside of 'for teh lolz'.

lol you dream too much man
i've play vanilla and play a warrior tank and yes the old classic was just about warrior being the only tank viable, etc..

but you dream if you think blizzard will just make classic like it was, they will balance class for sure, so every tank spec will be viable, heal same and dps too, they will make 1.12 the baisc patch and after this balance will come

[Talon8669]

"We want classic servers!"

Blizzard introduces classic servers

"NO NOT LIKE THAT!"

HAHA Right?!?! But on a serious note, I really want Vanilla servers but I would be happy with some tweaks and balancing; but that's my preference and obviously Blizz needs to do what they feel is best for the project.

[anon5123]

they will balance class for sure, so every tank spec will be viable, heal same and dps too, they will make 1.12 the baisc patch and after this balance will come

....except no, because they've been saying "vanilla is vanilla" over and over.

Shoo. If you want every class/spec to be viable for everything, go play retail.

[Thimagryn]

Could Vanilla not be the idealistic perfect specimen of the game that some people expected? Why ask for Vanilla to be remade, then ask to change things, from small QOL things to massive things like removing Crushing Blows and Crits from bosses???? I thought Vanilla was exactly what people wanted, or did people let their nostalgia color their thoughts, then when implementation is pending suddenly realize that some things could be better???

I chuckle at the thought that people like OP exist, who are not happy to be given one thing, but want to have that gift molded into their false vision.

Because a perfect ideal vanilla never existed in one form. It was an evolving, constantly iterative process that shifted balance from one class to the next. The fact that Blizzard is choosing 1.12 changes that snapshot to the latest and last iteration of Vanilla when it was mostly TBC without new talents and itemization.

Everything that happened throughout Vanilla would not be preserved in 1.12. There is no more pure support druid and paladin, as they can effectively heal by this patch. Warlocks are better because of the dot limit, but fire mage spec still cant be used in MC because of resists. These are changes not intended in Vanilla any time prior to AQ.

If this is the case and vanilla is effectively changed by the mere use of a patch and many classes and specs are opened up where they were not before, then why is tanking druid and pally the exception being held back? That is the issue we are bringing up. Arguably the druid and priests were not effective healers when MC came.out, so they literally buffed, provided mana and cleansed in raids while priests healed. This will change with 1.12 allowing.them to effectively heal better (tho still limited by poor itemization). Tanking is only a mater of reaching a defense cap for druids to become consistently effective tanks, and there is little reason to not allow them since they can already tank, just with the risk of crushing blow RNG.

[anon5123]

If this is the case and vanilla is effectively changed by the mere use of a patch and many classes and specs are opened up where they were not before

Nothing was really changed, the existing specs/roles were just made more effective. Paladin was given 15 minute class-wide buffs so that they could spend most of the time healing instead of most of the time buffing. Druid healers were okay, just not as good as Priests. Fire mage was always bad in MC/BWL because half the things are immune to fire.

then why is tanking druid and pally the exception being held back?

Because that's how it was in 1.12.

Classic is not being launched as some kind of "vanilla+", it's just vanilla. Blizz staff have even alluded to that, saying that there were lots of frustrating things about vanilla, and the experience is not for everyone. They're doing this to preserve the old version of the game, not to fix and update and change it.

Tanking is only a mater of reaching a defense cap for druids to become consistently effective tanks, and there is little reason to not allow them since they can already tank, just with the risk of crushing blow RNG.

"defense cap" is not the main reason why paladin/druid are not viable raid tanks.

Druid can't block, so they take so many more crushing blows than warriors = tons more damage taken. They also can't parry. As per testing/calculations done, a bear takes around 20-30% more damage than a warrior.

Paladin can block and parry and reach defense cap....but their tier gear is all healing, they have no defensive cooldowns (last stand, shield wall), no taunt, less threat over a longer period of time, and they run out of mana.

You would need to completely overhaul feral/prot in order to make them competitive with warriors, and at that point you might as well just go play TBC.

[Thimagryn]

"defense cap" is not the main reason why paladin/druid are not viable raid tanks.

Druid can't block, so they take so many more crushing blows than warriors = tons more damage taken. They also can't parry. As per testing/calculations done, a bear takes around 20-30% more damage than a warrior.

Paladin can block and parry and reach defense cap....but their tier gear is all healing, they have no defensive cooldowns (last stand, shield wall), no taunt, less threat over a longer period of time, and they run out of mana.

You would need to completely overhaul feral/prot in order to make them competitive with warriors, and at that point you might as well just go play TBC.

You can say this but we already know Druids CAN tank that content. There is literal proof of Druids main tanking Vanilla content that is not normally known about. The problem is it requires a lot of over-compensating for crushing blows, stacking health and armor to abnormal lengths because the itemization/talents for defcap simply don't exist.

"Druid can't block, so they take so many more crushing blows than warriors = tons more damage taken. "

Block doesn't prevent crushing blows; Defense stat does. Warriors don't take CB's because they will always be Defense Capped. That is literally why we are talking about defense cap and not Block. Druids don't need block to tank, and TBC proved this. Bear armor and health is already way above Warriors in Vanilla, and they make great offtanks. You don't need to overhaul Druids because 1.12 already contains everything they need to tank sans defcap. You CAN MT right now, but only by outgearing the content to survive back-to-back CB's with the support of good reactive heals.

Paladins are a different story. They would need an overhaul because lack of taunt, mana preservation mechanics and threat generation. I believe they are a trickier proposition, especially considering they are Alliance only.

[Deleted]

Block doesn't prevent crushing blows; Defense stat does. Warriors don't take CB's because they will always be Defense Capped.

Not true at all. http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Attack_table

[Thimagryn]

Not true at all. http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Attack_table

Either way, point still stands. Druids didn't need block when CB's were around, and TBC showed how this was possible without giving druids Block or removing CB's entirely.