View Poll Results: Are you motivated to fight your opponent

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  • Play Horde and want to crush Alliance

    248 24.68%
  • Play Alliance and want to crush Horde

    213 21.19%
  • Play Horde and have no motivation

    368 36.62%
  • Play Alliance and have no motivation

    176 17.51%
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  1. #1081
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Both Zulkhan and I have sent you tons of sources and you're obviously not going to budge, so since it's not all that relevant to the topic here I'll drop it rather than have us go back and forth another ten posts without any progress.
    no source prove those are slums, like i said, all the buildings there, in sen'jin vilalge, echo isles, even the ones in zul'gurub are alike, you basically are trying to prove that all trolls buildings are slums

  2. #1082
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    no source prove those are slums, like i said, all the buildings there, in sen'jin vilalge, echo isles, even the ones in zul'gurub are alike, you basically are trying to prove that all trolls buildings are slums
    I can't turn down the bait.

    The building models are irrelevant. It's how one building can be a barracks and the other a command center despite being an identical model. What matters is their placement, amenities and access to outside of their hole. The troll huts were next to the goblin slums that are directly called such and have toxic sewage going into the waters the trolls were at. The quests say they were relegated to the outskirts as a conscious policy choice of Garrosh's and the Warcraft magazine from way back says directly that only orcs and tauren could stay in the center of the city.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  3. #1083
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I can't turn down the bait.

    The building models are irrelevant. It's how one building can be a barracks and the other a command center despite being an identical model. What matters is their placement, amenities and access to outside of their hole. The troll huts were next to the goblin slums that are directly called such and have toxic sewage going into the waters the trolls were at. The quests say they were relegated to the outskirts as a conscious policy choice of Garrosh's and the Warcraft magazine from way back says directly that only orcs and tauren could stay in the center of the city.
    at this points its just dancing with words, the models are not irrelevant, if there was a slum they would be building in low effort, it was not. Outskirts are just surroundings.

    I will always stand of how they just wanted to divide races in a cool visual way with the valleys, then after years they use as excuse to add more evil things on Garrosh

  4. #1084
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    at this points its just dancing with words, the models are not irrelevant, if there was a slum they would be building in low effort, it was not. Outskirts are just surroundings.

    I will always stand of how they just wanted to divide races in a cool visual way with the valleys, then after years they use as excuse to add more evil things on Garrosh
    Except the magazine, quest and Garrosh's comment all date back from 4.0. You have zero sources on Blizzard just doing a visual gimmick compared to the vastly more likely scenario that when they had a character call it a slum, put it in their official magazine that parts of the city were exclusive to certain races and had another quest say he relegated a specific race to a part of the city they meant those things.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  5. #1085
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    i think its just your point of view, pandaria resources are pretty much enough and the alliance was there too, you suggest leve to the alliance conquer? smart move
    The pandaria campaign started because Garrosh for some reason felt the need the pursue 'The Vanguard'. The ship that was found to be carrying 'The White Pawn'. Everyone sort of stumbled onto pandaria due to that ship running aground.

  6. #1086
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    The pandaria campaign started because Garrosh for some reason felt the need the pursue 'The Vanguard'. The ship that was found to be carrying 'The White Pawn'. Everyone sort of stumbled onto pandaria due to that ship running aground.
    The war between the Horde and Alliance had heated up post-Theramore, and the Horde navy was pursuing the ship Anduin was aboard as part of the conducting of said war. Then the ships run aground on an uncharted continent which could be full of resources and unknown powers for either side to exploit. Both sides commit themselves to "claiming" this new territory for their respective factions.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  7. #1087
    They're puny gitz, what other reason do you need.

  8. #1088
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The war between the Horde and Alliance had heated up post-Theramore, and the Horde navy was pursuing the ship Anduin was aboard as part of the conducting of said war. Then the ships run aground on an uncharted continent which could be full of resources and unknown powers for either side to exploit. Both sides commit themselves to "claiming" this new territory for their respective factions.
    yes BUT WHY was the vanguard in play to begin with and why was the boat with the king's son targeted exactly, I have my assumptions but those are just assumptions. I'm aware that the fighting was escalating, but this turn of events in the opening scenes of MoP came out of left field.

    Was it a play for a hostage to force Varian to back down? A show of force? a more extreme move to incite Stormwind into more reckless moves? I don't recall any reason for that particular event beyond to get used as the bus we all road to reach Pandaria.

  9. #1089
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    yes BUT WHY was the vanguard in play to begin with and why was the boat with the king's son targeted exactly, I have my assumptions but those are just assumptions. I'm aware that the fighting was escalating, but this turn of events in the opening scenes of MoP came out of left field.

    Was it a play for a hostage to force Varian to back down? A show of force? a more extreme move to incite Stormwind into more reckless moves? I don't recall any reason for that particular event beyond to get used as the bus we all road to reach Pandaria.
    According to the known information Anduin was on a "diplomatic mission" whose nature is unknown, although he later says when you find him in Pandaria that he wanted to see the war for himself (which is why he disappears from Taylor's group later in the Jade Forest, before being captured by the Horde). His "mission" may have been a convenient smokescreen that just got him out of Stormwind for awhile. It makes sense that if Anduin needed to travel Varian would see to it he did so on a flagship protected by Taylor and crewed by trustworthy soldiers.

    After Anduin breaks away from Taylor's makeshift garrison in the Jade Forest he is first captured by the Hozen, and freed by Ren and Lina Whitepaw, and after a few adventures learns of the Vale of Eternal Blossoms and the sacred waters therein. SI:7 finds him, but he refuses to return to the Alliance camp as he feels compelled to investigate what the Pandaren told him about, and escapes SI:7 custody. While fleeing, he is captured by the Horde vanguard forces and taken under threat to Grookin Hill. He manages to slip away again though during the disastrous battle of Serpent's Heart (when the Sha of Despair is freed and fully manifests near the temple). He makes his way to Krasarang (likely fleeing or following the effect of the Sha) where you later encounter him.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  10. #1090
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    According to the known information Anduin was on a "diplomatic mission" whose nature is unknown, although he later says when you find him in Pandaria that he wanted to see the war for himself (which is why he disappears from Taylor's group later in the Jade Forest, before being captured by the Horde). His "mission" may have been a convenient smokescreen that just got him out of Stormwind for awhile. It makes sense that if Anduin needed to travel Varian would see to it he did so on a flagship protected by Taylor and crewed by trustworthy soldiers.
    the blue and bold are more what I was referring to. we're rather left to assume it rather than see it stated clearly. We don't get much on why the horde targetted the vessel exactly. It seemed Garrosh had a more vested interest than simply tailing the vessel but it isn't elaborated on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post

    After Anduin breaks away from Taylor's makeshift garrison in the Jade Forest he is first captured by the Hozen, and freed by Ren and Lina Whitepaw, and after a few adventures learns of the Vale of Eternal Blossoms and the sacred waters therein. SI:7 finds him, but he refuses to return to the Alliance camp as he feels compelled to investigate what the Pandaren told him about, and escapes SI:7 custody. While fleeing, he is captured by the Horde vanguard forces and taken under threat to Grookin Hill. He manages to slip away again though during the disastrous battle of Serpent's Heart (when the Sha of Despair is freed and fully manifestsake out with Kiryn. near the temple). He makes his way to Krasarang (likely fleeing or following the effect of the Sha) where you later encounter him.
    The post landing on pandaria isn't the questionable part. It's the events that lead into the grounding which is summed up with a look at a map and statement of the existence of the event of finding a land in some dense fog. so... i guess we're just left with assumptions.

  11. #1091
    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    "In Genn's Eyes"... well shit! So all we have to do to justify literally ANY evil act is show that the person performing it feels Justified?

    Sylvanas is a fucking HERO by that metric. And even the idea of wiping out Stormwind is justified because they slaughtered her emissaries to begin with, showing that they -never- wanted peace with the Forsaken to -start- with, and Anduin maintaining that in his letters to Sylvanas in Before the Storm that he doesn't want peace -now-.

    So there can never be peace with the Alliance, and the only way to secure peace is to kill them all. Justifiiiiiied!

    /s

    Fucking hell. These Alliance Fans take Motivation and call it Justification.
    You realize that is exactly how Slyvanus and Nathanos justify themselves right? Slyvanus is a hero to many forsaken. There is zero reason for the alliance to see her as a hero though. Genn's actions in stormheim were justifed in his eyes. Thats why he fucking did what he did. The bit with Eyir is just further justification after the fact. The cherry on top.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I find the "bad writing" rationale/excuse to be something of a cop-out, personally - that this thread has wended on for 52 pages seems to strongly indicate to me that people care and are quite passionate about the story their role(s) within it, whatever those roles might be. Even you yourself have a strong partisan pro-Alliance position, indicative that the story matters to you on a high level. If a story matters, stirs emotions, and makes people care quite strongly about the things that occur with in then I would argue it is most certainly not in a bad state.
    Popularity does not equal quality. WOD cinematic has the most views of WoWs youtube channel. Does that mean WoD had the best story and game features? Hell no. McDonald's is the best selling restaurant in the world. Does that mean their food is of the highest quality?
    "Father, is it over? I see only darkness before me."

  12. #1092
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripzzz View Post
    Popularity does not equal quality. WOD cinematic has the most views of WoWs youtube channel. Does that mean WoD had the best story and game features? Hell no. McDonald's is the best selling restaurant in the world. Does that mean their food is of the highest quality?
    If "popularity" were the essence of what I was saying I would concede the point - what I was talking about was passion, not just popularity. Yes, many people eat at McDonald's, but very few people are passionate about it - they eat there because it is convenient and because there a lot of them. YouTube views are also probably not a good metric for even determining popularity or passion, as the case may be. "Likes" would probably be a better metric, in which case the BfA cinematic beats WoD by a comfortable margin (195K to 110K).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    the blue and bold are more what I was referring to. we're rather left to assume it rather than see it stated clearly. We don't get much on why the horde targetted the vessel exactly. It seemed Garrosh had a more vested interest than simply tailing the vessel but it isn't elaborated on.

    The post landing on pandaria isn't the questionable part. It's the events that lead into the grounding which is summed up with a look at a map and statement of the existence of the event of finding a land in some dense fog. so... i guess we're just left with assumptions.
    Horde intelligence had cottoned onto the fact that someone of importance, an Alliance VIP, was aboard the Vanguard and that acquiring this person would be good for the war-effort (e.g. to interrogate for further actionable intelligence or even as a bargaining chip in future conflict), which explains why the Horde's Southern Fleet was after the Vanguard despite knowing nothing about said VIP's mission or the purpose of their presence. As for the why of Anduin's "mission," that is unfortunately left to speculation.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  13. #1093
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    If "popularity" were the essence of what I was saying I would concede the point - what I was talking about was passion, not just popularity. Yes, many people eat at McDonald's, but very few people are passionate about it - they eat there because it is convenient and because there a lot of them. YouTube views are also probably not a good metric for even determining popularity or passion, as the case may be. "Likes" would probably be a better metric, in which case the BfA cinematic beats WoD by a comfortable margin (195K to 110K).
    You can be passionate about something and still be critical of it. For example, musicians often have very passionate fans who criticize the direction the musicians choose to follow. Saying they sold out or changed their initial style too much. Thats how i feel about WoW story. I feel metzen was really holding this thing together.
    Last edited by Tripzzz; 2018-07-20 at 10:11 PM.
    "Father, is it over? I see only darkness before me."

  14. #1094
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripzzz View Post
    You realize that is exactly how Slyvanus and Nathanos justify themselves right? Slyvanus is a hero to many forsaken. There is zero reason for the alliance to see her as a hero though. Genn's actions in stormheim were justifed in his eyes. Thats why he fucking did what he did. The bit with Eyir is just further justification after the fact. The cherry on top.
    Sure... you're always justified when you follow your own opinion. but it matters more when outside views and evidence are taken into account. Genn treading close to starting a war isn't the same as Sylvanas starting one (one being the actual leader of their faction and the other just being a subordinate).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post


    Horde intelligence had cottoned onto the fact that someone of importance, an Alliance VIP, was aboard the Vanguard and that acquiring this person would be good for the war-effort (e.g. to interrogate for further actionable intelligence or even as a bargaining chip in future conflict), which explains why the Horde's Southern Fleet was after the Vanguard despite knowing nothing about said VIP's mission or the purpose of their presence. As for the why of Anduin's "mission," that is unfortunately left to speculation.
    actually it seems this is what we get... Nazgrim talking to Garrosh

    General Nazgrim : I am pleased to report that the battle at sea goes well, Warchief. Our forces report decisive victories off the coast of Tanaris and Tol Barad.
    Warchief Garrosh Hellscream : Alliance blood spills...this pleases me, General.
    General Nazgrim : There's more. I've received word that our southern fleet engaged an Alliance envoy. We chased the royal flagship, until it ran aground.
    Warchief Garrosh Hellscream : Aground? Where?
    General Nazgrim : Apparently, they found a massive uncharted land mass, shrouded by dense mists.
    Warchief Garrosh Hellscream : AND YOU LET THE ALLIANCE GET THERE FIRST?! Redirect the invasion fleet. General, you and your best veterans will pave our way.
    Warchief Garrosh Hellscream : STORM THE SHORE AND PAINT THIS NEW CONTINENT RED!

    looking up the quest to head to pandaria, I remembered the cinematic mentioning the ship anduin wound up being on. This seems to be what we get for why the Vanguard was chased.

  15. #1095
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripzzz View Post
    You can be passionate about something and still be critical of it. For example, musicians often have very passionate fans who criticize the direction the musicians choose to follow. Saying they sold out or changed their initial style too much. Thats how i feel about WoW story. I feel metzen was really holding this thing together.
    That is true - but being critical about something doesn't necessarily it mean it is bad or lacks worth. I can be critical about many things I actually like or enjoy (including WoW). I don't buy into the idea that any one person in WoW's original development crew was a cult of personality around which the game was based - it was always a group effort. I think the "new" group, while different, has handled the IP with the same sense of care and duty as the old, although like you I don't agree with every decision they've made (but then, I didn't agree with every decision the original team made either).
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  16. #1096
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Except the magazine, quest and Garrosh's comment all date back from 4.0
    yeah they just use those as excuse in MOP, when he was already set down as villain

    You have zero sources on Blizzard just doing a visual gimmick compared to the vastly more likely scenario that when they had a character call it a slum, put it in their official magazine that parts of the city were exclusive to certain races and had another quest say he relegated a specific race to a part of the city they meant those things.
    like i said, i will stand in the fact that the division was pure aesthetic and visual, then later used as excuse, cause since then nothing changed and everyone was fine with that

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    The pandaria campaign started because Garrosh for some reason felt the need the pursue 'The Vanguard'. The ship that was found to be carrying 'The White Pawn'. Everyone sort of stumbled onto pandaria due to that ship running aground.
    not because of that, we was mad because alliance found a island and go there first, he talk with NAzgrin, we saw a "virgin" land full of resources for him to take, and would not let the alliance get first, He didn't now heck about Anduin

  17. #1097
    Deleted
    Yes, I agree with this! But I don't want to follow the Alliance either, to be honest, and that's for one reason alone: Anduin is fucking stupid

    **Before the Storm Spoilers**
    He should've been pissed as fuck at Calia for ruining every chance at peace between the Horde and Alliance. Horde is not the aggressor in this war; Calia is. And Anduin just let that slip. That's just... Idiotic writing. How can I follow a king who compromise the entire world for some random ass Lordaeron survivor (well, queen and heir, so not so random). Warcraft writing can be so provoking, haha

  18. #1098
    I'm late to this but we need no motivation dude. Our faction is in war with them and life is cruel, some blood will spill and it better not be our side :P

  19. #1099
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    not because of that, we was mad because alliance found a island and go there first,
    Yes, Garrosh's outburst at the end was likely because of this, literally out of nowhere revelation
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    he talk with NAzgrin, we saw a "virgin" land full of resources for him to take, and would not let the alliance get first, He didn't now heck about Anduin
    >.> it was

    General Nazgrim : There's more. I've received word that our southern fleet engaged an Alliance envoy. We chased the royal flagship, until it ran aground.
    Warchief Garrosh Hellscream : Aground? Where?
    General Nazgrim : Apparently, they found a massive uncharted land mass, shrouded by dense mists.
    Warchief Garrosh Hellscream : AND YOU LET THE ALLIANCE GET THERE FIRST?! Redirect the invasion fleet. General, you and your best veterans will pave our way.
    Warchief Garrosh Hellscream : STORM THE SHORE AND PAINT THIS NEW CONTINENT RED!

    this was the debrief we see before we're making way to pandaria. for all the intel given, pandaria could be what we see in game later on... or something more like the surface island in Vashj'ir. It comes off more as Garrosh wanting to make sure the alliance didn't have something over on him. More so when we start to understand the alliance likely only found the place trying to gtfo whatever skirmish that Horde 'southern fleet' had planned.

  20. #1100
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Yes, Garrosh's outburst at the end was likely because of this, literally out of nowhere revelation


    >.> it was

    General Nazgrim : There's more. I've received word that our southern fleet engaged an Alliance envoy. We chased the royal flagship, until it ran aground.
    Warchief Garrosh Hellscream : Aground? Where?
    General Nazgrim : Apparently, they found a massive uncharted land mass, shrouded by dense mists.
    Warchief Garrosh Hellscream : AND YOU LET THE ALLIANCE GET THERE FIRST?! Redirect the invasion fleet. General, you and your best veterans will pave our way.
    Warchief Garrosh Hellscream : STORM THE SHORE AND PAINT THIS NEW CONTINENT RED!

    this was the debrief we see before we're making way to pandaria. for all the intel given, pandaria could be what we see in game later on... or something more like the surface island in Vashj'ir. It comes off more as Garrosh wanting to make sure the alliance didn't have something over on him. More so when we start to understand the alliance likely only found the place trying to gtfo whatever skirmish that Horde 'southern fleet' had planned.
    you realize that quote clearly state how he become mad was because he didn't want the Alliance to take control of the land? it not because "get something over him" a unknown land of no one is a golden mine and the ones who take first win

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