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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    War Crimes revealed Baine's forewarning to Jaina got many, if not all, civilians to safety. The remaining civilians weren't killed, though were captured and later freed during SoO.

    Again, if you choose to remain and fight Horde occupation, are you a civilian?
    i was more thinking about the goblins, when you play through as horde, that wind up on the shooting targets.

  2. #162
    Don't worry. She will probably either
    A: Be under the influence of an old god, like Garrosh
    B: Doing what she does for "a greater cause" and is just misunderstood, like Illidan.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by SleepsAtDay View Post
    A, switching sides is money, which is difficult for some people. Not for Blizzard, mind you.

    B, people HAVE been switching, and that is a problem in itself. Theoretically, we are supposed to be attached to our side. Race, class, friends and NPCs, and if story developments are breaking that connection, that is a disservice to the game.

    C, Sylvannas’s people are the Horde, as an entirety. That’s the luggage she got saddled with when she became Warchief. She needs to be doing right by the Horde in its entirety, and that isn’t happening.
    A&B: It was meant more like a sort of joke. I do agree that you should be highly incentivized to have pride for the faction you're invested in.

    C: Then that's a character flaw which she has. She is still putting the forsaken first instead of focusing on the entire horde.

  4. #164
    Stood in the Fire Phantombeard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    Currently, Sylvanas is objectively worse than Garrosh was. If they turn around and redeem her at this point, it's going to be a cringefest for a number of reasons.
    They did it with Grommash Hellscream (alternate universe). From the beginning of WOD he was basically the main protagonist, sending his cronnies after you. The players just knew we would get a raid with a awesome climatic battle against Gromm but it never came. Then out of nowhere were all good buddys. Even saving Gromm from one of HFC's raid Bosses. Guldan in the end being the scapegoat. The whole thing just didn't make any sense. I "Hope" Sylvanas doesn't end up the same way. BFA is looking to be another WOD though. Fuck...now that I think about it...Fuck Fuck just...Fuck..Damn Forums, making me think.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by SleepsAtDay View Post
    Realistically speaking, what can they do to redeem her? Barring “surprise, all the quest stuff in beta was a lie!”

    Mind control isn’t going to excuse any of this. Too lame.

    “I was doing this all for a greater cause” isn’t going to fly either, definitely not for the Alliance... and that part’s fine, but it’s not going to clear things for the disgruntled Horde either. You guys loved Xe’ra telling you Illidan was right all along, didn’t you?

    Maybe they’ll try a torture arc, have her suffer a whole bunch at the hands of the true villain of the expansion and fight alongside you at the end. That makes everything leading up to it not count, right?
    My guess is that Auduin/Important Alliance character ends up in a near death experience and is saved by slyvannas and then both factions fight everyone and save the day

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    I'd take eitrigg or hell even an undead dranosh saurfang. Freaking be cool as hell having a deathknight be warchief

    - - - Updated - - -



    High chance of this too though

    The Kerrigan 2.0
    Yeah it would be cool to have a DK as chief

  7. #167
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    War Crimes revealed Baine's forewarning to Jaina got many, if not all, civilians to safety. The remaining civilians weren't killed, though were captured and later freed during SoO.

    Again, if you choose to remain and fight Horde occupation, are you a civilian?
    Well one could ask, if you turn a blind eye or assist the taking of the Divine Bell and delivering it to the horde, are you a civilian?

    Both sides have their evil assholes
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    Well one could ask, if you turn a blind eye or assist the taking of the Divine Bell and delivering it to the horde, are you a civilian?

    Both sides have their evil assholes
    most of the shopkeepers and NPC's you encounter (to include robbing and killing) in the purge of dalaran quests had no idea about events going on outside the city limits. The main Sun Reavers involved in it were likely either still moving the bell (not in the city) or in the room getting blasted when Jaina showed up.

    This would actually be a good twist though... Silver Covenant forces allowing the event to take place so Jaina would let them loose and deal with the blood elves

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    Garrosh simply asked them to do more, they chose not to. We see that as late as "Tides of War" Garrosh is concerned about winning over dissidents. As far as punishing arguably treasonous subordinates goes, let's not forget that Garrosh tolerated outright death threats from Vol'jin, Baine leveraging his loyalty and support to try and force policy change, numerous secret "anti-Warchief" meetings that went unpunished, etc.
    and yet Garrosh ordered Vol'jin's death in the end... and had his Kor'kron doing as they pleased... I don't think that's 'tolerating' those threats anymore. Hind sight it seemed more like Garrosh couldn't outright kill Vol'jin at the time cause he still didn't want to force a larger rift with the trolls and Vol'jin kept his nose clean for a long time. The trip in the caves was among the first chances Garrosh had to handle things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post

    The Kor'kron were placed in Undercity by Thrall. After Sylvanas temporarily lost the city (and a number of its abomination guards) to Varimathras' coup. As far as "controlling" things goes, there's a passage in "Before the Storm," where Sylvanas says outright that she wants to appoint a Troll leader she can control.
    I took that to mean that she already had enough resistance on her small council between Baine and Sourfang (the latter also cited as issuing his own threat)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    Currently, Sylvanas is objectively worse than Garrosh was. If they turn around and redeem her at this point, it's going to be a cringefest for a number of reasons.
    that's just it... 'currently' Sylvanas has done very little.

  9. #169
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    most of the shopkeepers and NPC's you encounter (to include robbing and killing) in the purge of dalaran quests had no idea about events going on outside the city limits. The main Sun Reavers involved in it were likely either still moving the bell (not in the city) or in the room getting blasted when Jaina showed up.

    This would actually be a good twist though... Silver Covenant forces allowing the event to take place so Jaina would let them loose and deal with the blood elves

    - - - Updated - - -


    and yet Garrosh ordered Vol'jin's death in the end... and had his Kor'kron doing as they pleased... I don't think that's 'tolerating' those threats anymore. Hind sight it seemed more like Garrosh couldn't outright kill Vol'jin at the time cause he still didn't want to force a larger rift with the trolls and Vol'jin kept his nose clean for a long time. The trip in the caves was among the first chances Garrosh had to handle things.


    I took that to mean that she already had enough resistance on her small council between Baine and Sourfang (the latter also cited as issuing his own threat)



    that's just it... 'currently' Sylvanas has done very little.
    I know I just meant that given how it's in two different scenarios it can be taken both ways. As in
    Horde side: jaina is aggressive and kills attackers and runners.
    Alliance side: jaina is passive and only attacked those that attack her, then teles them to the dungeon when they drop low.

    We have no idea (correct me if I'm wrong) who is canon.

    Aethas knew exactly what was happening, (he comes across the portal) but chooses to do nothing because he's more scared of Garrosh than jaina. Giving blizzard the opening to present the story as both horde and alliance side perspective.

    To me honestly, unless they come out and say which side is canon the scenario is just nothing worth actual effect in the lore,because the event has widly different perspectives.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    I know I just meant that given how it's in two different scenarios it can be taken both ways. As in
    Horde side: jaina is aggressive and kills attackers and runners.
    Alliance side: jaina is passive and only attacked those that attack her, then teles them to the dungeon when they drop low.
    replayed it as alliance side... she still roves and picks off people on the streets.

    edit:

    in fact, no one even tries engaging her really except if you count Aethas and the 5 she teleports in on who were in fighting stances as she drops in and blasts them all.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    To be fair, the company's had like four plot lines recycled through the entirety of their IPs from day 1. Also, careful with this thread, the Sylvanas Bootlicker Brigade won't tolerate any mean things being said about Glorious Leader!
    You might be confusing sylvanas with Golden's pet and "Good Boy" Greymane.

  12. #172
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    replayed it as alliance side... she still roves and picks off people on the streets.

    edit:

    in fact, no one even tries engaging her really except if you count Aethas and the 5 she teleports in on who were in fighting stances as she drops in and blasts them all.
    Really? Hmm I did it back in MoP she didn't actually kill patrolled and zapped ppl that attacked then ud see tele animation
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  13. #173
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    Kinda fed up with daily Sylvanas threads.
    Be loyal to what matters - Arthur Morgan

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  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    replayed it as alliance side... she still roves and picks off people on the streets.

    edit:

    in fact, no one even tries engaging her really except if you count Aethas and the 5 she teleports in on who were in fighting stances as she drops in and blasts them all.
    I don't have a character at that level right now so will have to try later when my priest gets up there.

    However isn't she teleporting them here?
    https://youtu.be/70AIowEbp_g

    The ones that are running past the player into her
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    I don't have a character at that level right now so will have to try later when my priest gets up there.

    However isn't she teleporting them here?
    https://youtu.be/70AIowEbp_g

    The ones that are running past the player into her
    she teleports SOME of them. she more often casts frost bolt and blizzard. Note her elementals only sport the frost spells and join in with her.
    edit: the opening part of the vid is more or less how the entire event is showcased. Show up, blast a few... teleport a couple... blast some more.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    Really? Hmm I did it back in MoP she didn't actually kill patrolled and zapped ppl that attacked then ud see tele animation
    she still has the teleport ability and uses it, but not as often as people like to claim. the 'displaced sunreavers' are flagged as hostile at this point and run around the streets in the fear animation (no fear effect is applied) and can be killed by the player or jaina or her elementals. her teleport effect has a noticeable delay in usage rather than being used on every elf that gets in aggro range.

  16. #176
    Deleted
    I never thought that Garrosh was a villain. Atleast not until they went out of their way to make him one. In Cataclysm Garrosh was truly the embodiment of the "Blood and Honor" theme that is the Horde. An extremely vocal minority of people didn't like the whole "blood" part of the Horde. Blizzard caved to that groups criticism and ruined Garrosh by making him uncharacteristically evil in MoP.

    Sylvanas on the other hand? She was always an evil character. The Forsaken were always evil. There's nothing morally grey about it.

    Her actions while acting as Warchief fit her character, but they do not fit the character of a leader the entire Horde would follow. She doesn't have any honor, and she commits atrocity after atrocity to the people of the world. At this point she is worse than Garrosh ever was.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    To be fair, the company's had like four plot lines recycled through the entirety of their IPs from day 1. Also, careful with this thread, the Sylvanas Bootlicker Brigade won't tolerate any mean things being said about Glorious Leader!
    You mean, you can't tolerate Sylvanas existing or being contested on peddling fanfiction about her that you preemptively project this straw-man bullshit? It's kinda sad you changed so quickly over the BfA beta from a typical poster to the 1000th member of Sylvanas Victimization Squad that instantly bitch and moan whenever Sylvanas is mentioned, bring her up to bitch and moan about her when she's not mentioned and can't even address counterarguments to their abject falsehoods about Sylvanas anymore.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Bennett View Post
    I agree, I'm very much hoping after Sylvanas we get a leader who actually embodies what the Horde is - Baine would be a good choice, or Thrall again - another idea could be Talanji, I know she's a new character but playing on the beta I think she is very much an awesome character and I would be more than happy with her as Warchief
    Because nothing screams "Warchief material" like the guy that betrayed the Horde and aided the Alliance, then even after it was discovered, continued being a pen pal of the High King.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    She killed her own people who just wanted to be with their families again, not even garrosh of that much a monster
    Deliberately misrepresent that event some more. It's not like they were defecting high ranking officials out there. Not at all. And it's not that even this didn't spur Sylvanas into action, with her only ordering the attack when she learned about Calia, i.e. a usurper from her perspective, being present during that defection.

    Also, Garrosh ordered what was essentially an execution of Magnataur children. Even though the adult Magnataur, whom he blackmailed with said captured children, kept their side of the deal they were forced into. Totally better than even what you misrepresented the Gathering into.


    Quote Originally Posted by Florena Emberlin View Post
    Do people think Garrosh WOULDN'T have killed people trying to defect to the Alliance? Heck I'd be surprised if Garrosh allowed the meeting to happen in the first place.
    You're not thinking this through properly. You first need to find in yourself the power to constantly reeeeeee about Sylvanas and everything she does. Once you achieve that, you'll transform into the poster boy/girl of "Garrosh did nothing wrong" (at least whenever that suits your reeeeeeeeing about Sylvanas).


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Problem is that those weren't even collateral damage, it was her full intention to kill them, Nathanos was even stunned by this move.
    It's not like it was impossible to tell potential traitors from loyalists, those that ran for the wall followed the given rules to the point, there was no reason to kill them other than to keep them silenced forever.
    Except it was impossible, because like Sylvanas said, there was no way of knowing who of those returning to the wall did so only out of fear of dying and would have defected otherwise. Which Nathanos instantly accepted as an explanation. Somehow every time someone tries to use "even Nathanos disagrees with her!" as an argument they keep forgetting that part. Also, what would silencing them achieve, given how there are still surviving members of the Council?


    Quote Originally Posted by rowaasr13 View Post
    Saurfang = Leader of Horde AND Alliance against ages old evil, which as we see now, could be even greater than Legion. Result: sucessfuly fucked up an Old God manifestation.
    Garrosh = Leader of tiny fraction of Horde, who antagonized even his own race. Result: partially succumbed to same Old Gods, led Horde's capital to ruin.

    And for that Saurfang - spineless, Garosh - better leader. Just whose boots are you licking? Old Gods?
    Right, because there's no story after Vanilla. Obviously Saurfang moping in Borean Tundra throughout Garrosh's reign only to join the people acting against his nonsense at the last second was pristine behavior from Saurfang. Him breaking the Blood Oath and not finishing Malfurion off, with each Horde member dying by Malfurion's hands afterwards being on Saurfang's head, was also flawless. Saurfang outright abandoning the Horde, including the Orcs of whom he's the leader, is totally better than Garrosh antagonizing most Orcs.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    Unless you're a bigoted bully constantly throwing your weight around and taking what isn't yours, you're spineless! /s
    But what if there were no bigoted bullies among the Horde characters that do not get called spineless? Like, I dunno, Lor'themar. Oh, right, that wouldn't suit your straw-man. So they don't exist or something.


    Quote Originally Posted by rowaasr13 View Post
    Come the fuck on, even Nathanos, her official champion was visibly startled. Do Sylvanas fans want to be much more obsessed with worshipping her than he is?
    And he stopped being startled when she explained her reasons to him. Why do you brilliant people keep "forgetting" that part? Also lol at calling @Aucald a Sylvanas fan.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    She was aware, but she killed them because she didn't like what these Forsaken have seen: That some Humans are willing accept them.
    She explictly stated that she doesn't want them to return because they have hope, Sylvanas wants the Forsaken to be truly desolate.
    Oh, look, not only are you cherrypicking parts of Nathanos' reaction to suit your point, you're doing the same with Sylvanas' reasons for giving that order. A strong argument right here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  18. #178
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    You mean, you can't tolerate Sylvanas existing or being contested on peddling fanfiction about her that you preemptively project this straw-man bullshit? It's kinda sad you changed so quickly over the BfA beta from a typical poster to the 1000th member of Sylvanas Victimization Squad that instantly bitch and moan whenever Sylvanas is mentioned, bring her up to bitch and moan about her when she's not mentioned and can't even address counterarguments to their abject falsehoods about Sylvanas anymore.
    Yeah, it's kinda like I got tired of Blizzard recycling plotlines once again, like they always do, and that watching the Horde once again commit atrocities to please a tyrant killed my interest in the faction after the... hm... fourth trip through? Let's see. Blackhand, Gul'dan, Garrosh, and Sylvanas, yeah. And I also kinda got tired of seeing you and The Usual Suspects dismiss every negative thing said about Glorious Leader either with a tidal wave of 'Whatabout???' regarding Genn (who I've always been critical of because the man shouldn't be trusted to operate a box of Cheerios without adult supervision, never mind military operations) and Anduin (who has his own host of flaws as the archetypal Good Prince trope embodied but isn't the topic at hand half the time he's brought up) or with dismissing actual ingame evidence as 'fanfiction' because apparently they take Ion's comments to heart when it ought to be obvious by now Ion is as tone-deaf as the dunce who once said, in regard to the Beatles, guitar music was a passing fad.

    But hey, let's not let one's personal biases go unchallenged here, because I know you've got it in your head that I think the Alliance is some golden pillar of justice (it's not; right now the faction war is a matter of an outright evil character being juxtaposed against a naive idiot whose chief advisor and closest ally is the same moron who wasted valuable time and troops attacking the other faction, leaving the adventurer entrusted with locating an artifact capable of helping end the Legion invasion without any logistical support until he realized his side-scuffle needed their help, too whose fans, just as rabid, pardon the pun, as Sylvanas fans similarly justify everything he does with post-facto justification and twisting things so hard they've developed back problems). BFA's faction war storyline is the most inane plotline we've had since killing boars in Elwynn, and the fact that you (among several other) posters here have bought hook, line, and sinker into a fictional character's cult of personality has brought my faith in this forum community to new lows.

    To quote Ben Affleck in his cameo from Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back: "These are fictional characters. Fic-tion-al char-ac-ters. I mean, am I getting through to you?" The waifu doesn't need to be defended every time something says something mean about her. She isn't going to treat your character any better before you're thrown into another meat grinder just to convince the Alliance to run merrily into another deathtrap because you defend her honor on an internet forum.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    Actually, the only ones she allowed to survive were those that left before she recalled them. The agreed upon procedure was that if the horns sounded, no matter what was going on, the Forsaken had to return. A bunch of them did. They walked towards the wall before Sylvanas started attacking. And yet, she had them cut down anyway, deliberately, simply because she felt that she could not completely trust them. As she put it herself there, the test of loyalty was not recalling them, it was being rejected by their loved ones. Or rejecting them themselves.
    So yeah, the killing is a tad more disproportionate, since apparently in order to survive, you need not only follow orders, but absolutely reject the living. Basically, just having a good or even neutral time with families constitutes a thought crime, punishable by death.
    Alternatively, returning only out of fear (i.e. being a defector at heart and only feigning loyalty to save their asses) during an ongoing defection with a usurper thrown into the mix is punishable by death, because letting a potential fifth column back into your city as its leaders in your absence is patently moronic. Alas, ignoring the first part of what Sylvanas said when Nathanos objected is swell.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Yes but they were not defecting in any manner, Calia has nothing to do with that, the horn was sounded, they went back, that's how it's supposed to go. Sylvanas simply killed them because they were enjoying it, which undermined Sylvanas narrative of "all humans hate the Forsaken".
    Which is exactly why Sylvanas ordered the attack... only after she learned about Calia and jumped to conclusion about her trying to usurp her...


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Sylvanas sounded the horn after she realized they were enjoying it, because that meant the meeting has gone south for her.

    There was no indication they were traitors, nor did Sylvanas "have the assumption", she didn't reason "i thought they were traitors", there was no hestitation, no regret.
    In fact, the whole Calia thing gave her enough room to simply kill all of them to twist the story in a way she wants, without any witnesses that might question her version of the story.

    If there were Forsaken spilling out that in fact some humans are willing to accept them and Sylvanas killed Forsaken because they wanted to live with their families, that would have split the Forsaken society.
    Things that preceded Sylvanas sounding the horn:
    1. Sylvanas noticing something is off, long after Forsaken still on the field started to enjoy themselves
    2. Sylvanas coming to the conclusion that the thing that's off is that some Forsaken are defecting

    Do continue the tale of how Sylvanas sounded the horn only because Forasken on the field were enjoying themselves and how there was no indication that a group of Forsaken moving towards Stromgarde were traitors though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    As such, the order of events goes like this.
    Suspicious movement---> Retreat is sounded--->Priest informs of Calia---> batriders dispatched ---> Some Forsaken make a run for it, others return, Calia tries to convince Elsie and the others to run by revealing herself --->Elsie dies right that moment (quote would have been too long for copyright or w/e, but happens right after quote two) -->Anduin realizes that Syl is killing even the retreating ones--->Spiel with Nathanos.

    Mind you that the Forsaken on the field moving is not necessarily time-displaced from retreat sounding. We don't know how quickly they went, but given how Nathanos treats it, those guys started returning before the killing started and in an orderly fashion.
    Your order is wrong. Your own quotes prove that. Elsie hearing the horn is the end of her discussion with Calia. How on earth then can that discussion happen not only after the horn, but after batriders have been dispatched? And because of that, what are you basing the notion that some Forsaken already made a run for it before that discussion ended? Especially since Elsie died immediately after hearing the horn and shouting the order to retreat.

    Which on a side note is iffy writing to be honest. Because in the scene on the field Elsie died very shortly after hearing the horn. Yet in the earlier scene with Sylvanas, after Sylvanas sounded the horn there was enough time for a Forsaken to fly back to Thoradin Wall and have a discussion with Sylvanas about Calia being there. And then the scene ended before Sylvanas even gave the orders to Dark Rangers. Maybe the Forsaken bats are so fast they can move back in time or something.

    Anyway, Golden being an inconsistent hack aside, focusing on how things were shown on the field side, given how the only Forsaken that was shown to have reacted to the horn before the killing was Elsie, who then died immediately after she shouted to the rest of the Forsaken to retreat (which would be rather pointless if they were already reacting to the horn and retreating), there's no indication that the Forsaken that were returning to the wall started to do so before the killing started. Because there wasn't much time for them to react.

    And Nathanos' reaction makes sense regardless of when they started to return. Not knowing what Sylvanas was thinking, seeing Forsaken returning to the wall getting killed even after the killing started would look weird. On the other hand Sylvanas' explanation that she can't trust if they are returning only out of fear doesn't make much sense, if at all, if they started to return before the killing began.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2018-07-22 at 12:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
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  20. #180
    I'm starting to look at Jaina and Sylvanas as a pretty odd mirror. Both female leaders, both plan to attack the other factions. Both have/are planning to engage and possibly destroy a city.... both have killed their own subjects.

    But only one is regarded as a monster.

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