Warbringers - Jaina

[Big Mama]

I didn't like it as much as I thought I would. I look forward to Azshara and Sylvanas.
I hated Ed Sheeran in Game of Thrones and I hate Jaina being a fisherman bard.

[Aeula]

Wait a second... the Deathlord of the Ebon Blade claimed Daelin’s soul. How the hell is he there to ferry her?

[Chonar]

Wait a second... the Deathlord of the Ebon Blade claimed Daelin’s soul. How the hell is he there to ferry her?

Did we? I played my Deathknight throughout his class campaign and I cannot remember doing this.
I could be wrong. When did this happen?

We got Nazgrim because fuck yeah, Nazgrim.
We got the first human King because hey, "warriors took his sword, so we get him".
We got Whitemane because lol irony.
And we got Darion because paladins were being all uppity.

[Aeula]

Did we? I played my Deathknight throughout his class campaign and I cannot remember doing this.
I could be wrong. When did this happen?

We got Nazgrim because fuck yeah, Nazgrim.
We got the first human King because hey, "warriors took his sword, so we get him".
We got Whitemane because lol irony.
And we got Darion because paladins were being all uppity.

It happened in an Order Hall mission. You send your Knights out to retrieve his essence from the shadowlands.

[Mehrunes]

Maybe it was a bug, but when Legion first came out, on every Horde alt I had, we camped the spawn portal, no problem, no instant kill.

Did you camp right on top of the portal behind all the named demons, or the point where the mobs converged after arriving and became attackable?

[Aucald]

Yeah I guess it is only genocide when all of the race is dead. Killing everyone in a town is not genocide. All those people that died in Astranaar were trash and not qualified enough so the incident to be called genocide. Then it seems that Rohingya was also not a genocide. They were only a few villagers and not qualified ... Sylvanas fans are all the same. As I said it is stupid that you cannot put the moderator in the ignore list. I tried to ignore every Sylvanas fan but it seems I failed on that one. But on the other hand it is hard for a Sylvanas fan to understsand what genocide means when she brings people back from the dead.

I never claimed anyone in Astranaar was "trash," simply that the event doesn't meet a number of criteria to be a genocide. Nor am I a "Sylvanas fan," I merely dislike misinformation and hyperbole in most of its forms, and prefer things be represented for what they truly are. As for ignoring me, my apologies about that - the only thing I can offer is that from here on out I will not respond to you, and you can in turn not respond to me. It seems silly to want to ignore someone who offered you no offense, we could simply agree to disagree and walk away from the topic.

As for the other matter - let's not invoke a discussion of moderation here. This thread is already a bit too emotional as it is.

[Aucald]

And the entirety of Horde's ranged forces that were forced to fight for the Alliance side of the battlefield because Varian was too much of a moron to bring his own ranged support (and given how the melee troops were constantly forced closer and closer to Sylvanas' position, probably some of them could see down the ridge as well). Also, what plight and what killing plain? Compared to the Horde side with constant demon reinforcements and then spaceships (which in turn were visible from the Alliance side), the Alliance faced a breeze.

Once the Horde flank was crushed, the Horde's ranged forces were withdrawn from the ridge. The "plight" would be the flanking of the Alliance position, the summoning of the Fel Reaver to prevent their escape via skyship, and the death of Varian by Gul'dan. The Horde side being crushed by Legion dreadnoughts was definitely the design of the encounter - the Horde had the more exposed position (in terms of an aerial approach), whereas the Alliance where in a shallow box-canyon where the Tomb of Sargeras sits. The Legion funneled them into a perfect position to be torn apart.

[MrLachyG]

Wow, no matter how much of a shit show pre-patch day was, they know how to hype people the fuck up for an xpac.

I'd much rather a shit show on pre-patch day than launch day.......

[Aucald]

I think a large point missing, is Varian and Sylvannas were building a relationship of mutual respect... in the Player's eyes. From what we witnessed. Then the Horde not only do not join the Alliance in mourning Varian, or even a nod of honor, they have those relishing in it.

The Alliance have no way of confirming the true events of Broken Shore until way later, if at all. The Horde play into the narrative of not even trying to explain themselves. This is all a part of Legion's plan, knowing how both sides think.

Varian and Sylvanas appeared to have a grudging respect for one-another, and both were present to do a job that needed doing above anything else that might have set them at one another's heels. Varian was beginning to come around to wanting to make peace (as he says in his missive to Anduin in the VO), but we've no idea what Sylvanas' position on the matter was. Given the history between the two forces it would be doubtful anyone in the Horde would mourn Varian, there's was still a lot of bad blood stemming from previous conflicts for that that to happen I would think. I don't recall anyone relishing in his death, though; the Horde seemed more taken by the loss of their own Warchief to celebrate the Alliance's hurts.

The Legion knew that the cooperation between the Alliance and Horde was fragile and tenuous, and Detheroc (in the form of Matthias Shaw of SI:7) was working in hard in Stormwind to poison it against the Horde and prevent reconciliation or further cooperation. The Horde, for its part, has never been one for extending peace, so the Legion needed only to let them stew in their losses (and perhaps toss the occasional cup of gasoline on the proverbial fire).

[Chonar]

It happened in an Order Hall mission. You send your Knights out to retrieve his essence from the shadowlands.

Ah yeah, you're right. What did we use that essence for again?
Might not have been 'used up'.

[Inukashi]

I don't think that she summoned her father as a necromancer, but still. A whole Ghostship? I can see her slowly going after her old love Arthas. He also started with a big 'realization' before he slaughtered everything in Stratholme.

I don't think Jaina's plot is working towards the end of BfA. I think her plot is working towards the next expansion. I mean... c'mon. She loved Arthas. She raised a Ghostship. That's some Arthas 2.0 stuff here. And there is nothing, Sylvanas hates more than Arthas. Also one of Sylvanas biggest targets is to turn Stormwind undead.
I'm pretty sure Jaina and Sylvanas would do anything to slaughter each other.

Also how she lifted her head at the end looks a bit like the cover of frozen throne with arthas on it.

[Steampunkette]

Silithus is a contested territory so any conflict there can't begin a war while the Horde is attacking Darkshore which is alliance territory

Targeting civilian laborers is a war crime. It doesn't matter if they're in "Contested Territory" or not. And would be Cassus Belli.

Civilian workers who first attacked by murdering an entire Explorer's League camp of the Alliance is not an act of aggression? Good logic.

Anduin sends the Alliance Players to Sillithus in Chapter 1. Sylvanas sends the Horde Players in Chapter 3. Sometime between Chapter 6 and 18 is where the attack on the Explorer's League occurs.

And even if that -wasn't- the order of things, THEY WOULD STILL BE CIVILIANS. Criminal civilians, sure, but civilians. If fucking Nazis had invaded America and gassed a maximum security prison full of inmates it would still be a war crime.

Wanna know the best lil' piece of evidence I can give for the timeline of the book being the timeline in the game? In Chapter 8, Anduin learns from Magni that the sword is harming Silithus while in the Underlight Temple. He swears to send Priests to help tend the wound. Head out to Silithus and go to the sword. There's Shamans and Druids, but no priests helping. They haven't even -arrived- yet. May not even know to come at that point.

Or, at least, there weren't before today's patch. Not sure what it's going to look like now that we're heading into the Thorn War.

She saved the Horde and was rewarded with a mana bomb. She's got an axe to grind and I'd hate to be in her way when she goes to grind it.

She betrayed the Horde when she broke the treaty and allowed Varian to move troops up through Theramore. Troops who firebombed a camp of civilians.

The mana bombing came a long time after that. After a lot of other people died because she broke her treaty. Jaina feels she was betrayed, but doesn't acknowledge her own actions as a betrayal.

It happened in an Order Hall mission. You send your Knights out to retrieve his essence from the shadowlands.

Ah yeah, you're right. What did we use that essence for again?
Might not have been 'used up'.

You're actually recovering the "Seed of Hatred" -from- his Soul. Not the whole thing.

I don't think that she summoned her father as a necromancer, but still. A whole Ghostship? I can see her slowly going after her old love Arthas. He also started with a big 'realization' before he slaughtered everything in Stratholme.

I don't think Jaina's plot is working towards the end of BfA. I think her plot is working towards the next expansion. I mean... c'mon. She loved Arthas. She raised a Ghostship. That's some Arthas 2.0 stuff here. And there is nothing, Sylvanas hates more than Arthas. Also one of Sylvanas biggest targets is to turn Stormwind undead.
I'm pretty sure Jaina and Sylvanas would do anything to slaughter each other.

I'm not saying she summoned her father's spirit or anything... only that she is now trafficking with the Undead by seeking them out and maybe using their powers for herself. Which would be awesome to see.

You know what I'd -adore-? Through the expansion, Jaina gets a tiny bit of Necromantic Power here and there, slowly learning little bits but staying in control of herself rather than going off the deep end... then... at the end of the expansion?

She enslaves Sylvanas through Undead-Controlling Necromancy.

That shit would be MASSIVE!

She could Force Sylvanas to return to Stormwind/Gilneas/Etc to stand trial for her crimes in the expansion-break novel. Have Sylvanas attempt to Justify her crimes in front of a court only to have Jaina force her to be honest with herself, to acknowledge her wrongdoing. Force her to accept her evil with the intent of getting a guilty verdict so she can personally shred the soul of the Horde Warchief... Only to have it wind up being the start of Sylvanas's Redemption and of Jaina's downfall.

But something happens to break Jaina's hold. Some questline in game where the Horde Player puts a crown on Sylvanas that protects her from Necromantic control and she returns to the Horde while Jaina rages and goes on the darker road towards more power...

Could be an interesting direction to take the story!

[Aeula]

Ah yeah, you're right. What did we use that essence for again?
Might not have been 'used up'.

They were sacrificed in a ritual to create deathchargers if I remember correctly.

[Aucald]

As the setting of this video doesn't take place in Thros (which is what I thought it was based on the preview), then I doubt any of the ghosts or spirits in the video are actually present. This is more a look into what Jaina is seeing or imagining as she's preparing to barge into the Battle of Lordaeron - she's not summoning spirits, the dead, or engaging in Necromancy, it's more these are just artistic renderings of her feelings of being haunted by the past and of her own doubts.

[Inukashi]

...

There could happen a lot of stuff with this!

But I mean. The look at the end of the video. That frontview, white hair, looking at the player with the slightly tilted look. The shadows in the face.
It reminds me so much of Arthas.

[Just1c3]

Well, isn't the faction war like, not going to be the focus supposedly when Azshara shows up and thereafter after we find out who the culprit is and then find out the void lords/N'zoth are behind it all and have to turn our focus to them? If so, Jaina is disposable thereafter as I don't see the following two expansions having to focus on the dated faction war. I know Jaina is Christie Gold's pet character but she doesn't have final say in who lives and who dies in lore, does she? Hopefully not because if so, her plot armor is stronger than Anduin's.

I partially agree with you, but what I don't agree with, is the idea of Jaina being disposable. I think the best use of her character, from like, a plot arc perspective, would be for Anduin, Baine, etc. to actually start working on some kind of Alliance/Horde diplomatic overtures, and you have Jaina involved as an Alliance character willing to be a bit harder on the Horde and call them on their shit.

So my idea is the arc goes like this: She was infuriated, she's going into more jaded/weary in BfA, where you go from there is you remind her about her friendship with Thrall and the things she used to believe in (a vision of the Battle for Hyjal would come in handy here) and you get her to a place where she can believe in those things again, albeit with more of a cautious optimism rather than the wide-eyed naiveté that she had once upon a time. So basically she goes "okay, yeah, I guess I can kind of believe in diplomacy and peace efforts again, but I'm not going to forget the shit that the Horde has done, and I'm not going to start trusting blindly anytime soon". So you position her as sort of a skeptic and a voice of reason, where the Horde is gonna go "okay peace is fine but only if we can keep doing X" and Jaina would be the character at the table to say "fuck you, the last time you guys were doing X, it led to Y, no more of that shit"

[Eradicator3]

Targeting civilian laborers is a war crime. It doesn't matter if they're in "Contested Territory" or not. And would be Cassus Belli.

Just remember all these conflicts since vanilla like undead vs night elf druids in ashenvale or dwarves vs taurens in southern barrens. None of them had led to a war

[Chonar]

They were sacrificed in a ritual to create deathchargers if I remember correctly.

Welp.
On the bright side, they were really cool horses. So maybe Jaina's okay with it?

[Steampunkette]

As the setting of this video doesn't take place in Thros (which is what I thought it was based on the preview), then I doubt any of the ghosts or spirits in the video are actually present. This is more a look into what Jaina is seeing or imagining as she's preparing to barge into the Battle of Lordaeron - she's not summoning spirits, the dead, or engaging in Necromancy, it's more these are just artistic renderings of her feelings of being haunted by the past and of her own doubts.

She takes the Silver Pendant off her Father's sword and gives it to the Ferryman before he apparently puts it on and later vanishes.

In popular culture (mostly based on Greek Mythology around Styx and Charon) one pays the Ferryman a piece of Silver to cross to the land of the dead.

I get that you think it's artistic rendering... but we're dealing with a Fantasy World where the undead and spirits and stuff -actually- exist. She crosses a ruined dock near to a graveyard of swords, where broken barrels float listlessly on a foggy sea and the rotted sails of a sunken boat stand at an odd angle beside her path. She rides out to sea in a storm with waves that buffet the boat and make her hold on to the prow to avoid being cast into the water.

It really looks like a bunch of what we're seeing is -really- happening, not just her mind wandering.

Just remember all these conflicts since vanilla like undead vs night elf druids in ashenvale or dwarves vs taurens in southern barrens. None of them had led to a war

That they didn't lead to war in the past doesn't mean that they're not Cause for War.

The Horde has performed a wide variety of actions which would justify a war against them to force them to stop. The Alliance, too. That they didn't previously take each other up on the option doesn't mean it wasn't cause.

And doesn't mean that they haven't committed war crimes against each other, -endlessly-. You pull out the Geneva Conventions and take a look at WoW and there's war crimes aplenty!

[Friendlyimmolation]

There could happen a lot of stuff with this!

But I mean. The look at the end of the video. That frontview, white hair, looking at the player with the slightly tilted look. The shadows in the face.
It reminds me so much of Arthas.

Vengeance destroys you, look what it did to Sylvanas, its pleasing to see the seeds of it in another character finally.