Antorus in 8.0

[Dracodraco]

Perhaps you're right and the instance is in fact no harder.

What do you make of the drop off from 1172 mythic Argus kills in the week before prepatch, and 282 kills this week?

I never said the instance wasn't harder. I said Argus wasn't. I'm pretty sure if you go back and read I can quote myself saying:

the only thing that felt "bad" was the explosion damage from Aggramars' adds, and the nerf to Grip-range (as well as the fact that roots are now nearly impossible to break).

It stands to reason if Aggramar is more difficult, less guilds will reach Argus which is *not* more difficult.

It also stands to reason that a ton of guilds that are currently on-farm only raid one day a week; Wednesday (or tuesday, for US). Back then, the boss *was* more difficult due to Scythes hitting harder, so any guild reaching it and having the realisation that tanks can barely live 3 scythes may have just stopped. Personally we anticipated this in my guild and moved our usual raid night from Wednesday to Sunday.

With that being said, I think it's also just people being bad because things have changed. We saw that ourselves with our healers; Without disc doing the monumental burst it usually does on Aggramar's double explosions, and with no Sac-aura to instantly top the raid if the disc is caught off guard, people struggle to adjust for a while. Most healing-intensive mechanics have not changed (or in the case of bonds, have gotten comparatively weaker than last week), yet people cite them as the biggest issue. It's probably mostly down to healers struggling to adjust their playstyles; It's no secret that healing is the most difficult part of the game right now (and for this entire expansion, really) so messing with them causes issues.

Lastly, a lot of people might just... Have gone on break. It's echoed over and over in this thread "it's preaptch, why even raid, there's no point". People are burnt out. It's summer. Everything's changed. What's the point in raiding? The boosting community I'm in had 40+ guldan mount sales last reset. We've done like... 8? This week, because people have just disappeared, and even those few, we've struggled to have full sign ups for (which was never an issue until like, tuesday night previously).

Yeah, monks are good, even better than before, we got that. How about DKs? We have 2 DKs on balls catching duty and they complained incessantly how they can't mitigate or heal balls damage nearly as good as before pre-patch.

Can you link me a log of this week + last week so I can compare? I used my own logs because I know the monk in question and that he didn't change anything, as well as knowing monks have basically zero magic mitigation (the only thing they have is the 35% effectivity-stagger). Monks should be one of the least effective classes against pure magic damage, which rent soul+tortured rage is.

[Nitros14]

I never said the instance wasn't harder. I said Argus wasn't. I'm pretty sure if you go back and read I can quote myself saying:




[/FONT]It stands to reason if Aggramar is more difficult, less guilds will reach Argus which is *not* more difficult.

It also stands to reason that a ton of guilds that are currently on-farm only raid one day a week; Wednesday (or tuesday, for US). Back then, the boss *was* more difficult due to Scythes hitting harder, so any guild reaching it and having the realisation that tanks can barely live 3 scythes may have just stopped. Personally we anticipated this in my guild and moved our usual raid night from Wednesday to Sunday.

With that being said, I think it's also just people being bad because things have changed. We saw that ourselves with our healers; Without disc doing the monumental burst it usually does on Aggramar's double explosions, and with no Sac-aura to instantly top the raid if the disc is caught off guard, people struggle to adjust for a while. Most healing-intensive mechanics have not changed (or in the case of bonds, have gotten comparatively weaker than last week), yet people cite them as the biggest issue. It's probably mostly down to healers struggling to adjust their playstyles; It's no secret that healing is the most difficult part of the game right now (and for this entire expansion, really) so messing with them causes issues.

Lastly, a lot of people might just... Have gone on break. It's echoed over and over in this thread "it's preaptch, why even raid, there's no point". People are burnt out. It's summer. Everything's changed. What's the point in raiding? The boosting community I'm in had 40+ guldan mount sales last reset. We've done like... 8? This week, because people have just disappeared, and even those few, we've struggled to have full sign ups for (which was never an issue until like, tuesday night previously).

You're probably right. I think it's a bad look on Blizzard to not tune around most people not immediately being familiar with their new specs, like they've done every other prepatch for that exact reason. It's just lead to a huge amount of guilds having a terrible experience this week dying repeatedly to content they've already killed a ton of times and being frustrated with the game/not playing WoW in prepatch instead of having fun. Especially with cutting edge removed.

[Hulkovius]

Hotfixes came. I hope next reset will be smooooth!

[Deleted]

Instead of picking and choosing the narative you want, to justfiy the state they released Antorus in, lets look at it objectively:

Regardless of expansion release, the following factors have always been present:
- Guilds are on intentional breaks.
- People being burned out, preventing guilds from raiding.
- People being unfamiliar with changes, causing performance to drop.
- Mechanical changes to essential roles (tanks, healers & dps alike) resulting in increase in errors and deaths.
- Changes to encounter mechanics and/or tuning, resulting in need for tactical change.

I see all of the above mentioned as an "excuse" as to why the content "feels" harder.

The matter of the fact is, ALL of these factors were ALSO present during, MoP & WoD launch (to name a few), and during the first week of those, we saw a dramatic INCREASE to boss kills, not a decrease as we're seeing now.

Give it whatever label you want to - blizzard done goofed.
Does it matter more to some guilds than others? Of course it does! That doesn't change anything though.

Personally, we pushed our raid from Wed to today Tues (EU) in anticipation of this major blunder by Blizzard.
And unless hundreds of EU guilds did the same as us, we'll have seen the worst pre-patch raid experience since (possibly) forever.

[Stabilobof]

I just checked on wowprogress, except if it is not up to date, no guild performed its 1st Argus since 8.0.
Of course some guilds are just "not good enough" and wiping because of mechanics not executed properly. Still, you would expect some guilds close to kill Argus before prepatch would manage to kill him now. That is not the case, proving that the fight is indeed harder.
Question is : maybe Blizzard didn't want to give free MM Argus kills this time (compared to Garrosh or Archimonde) ?

[Einsz]

Question is : maybe Blizzard didn't want to give free MM Argus kills this time (compared to Garrosh or Archimonde) ?

The amount of bugs with 8.0 is insane, I don't think this game had as many as it has now before, which most likely means tuning mythic antorus is at the bottom of to do list since it doesn't affect entire playerbase

[Deleted]

The amount of bugs with 8.0 is insane, I don't think this game had as many as it has now before, which most likely means tuning mythic antorus is at the bottom of to do list since it doesn't affect entire playerbase

https://twitter.com/WatcherDev/statu...42301431910400
Mythic Garrosh nerfed 48 hours of pre patch date.

Blizzard doesn't nerf Argus because they don't want to and it doesn't need it. There is no "to do list" there is no "buggy Antorus. Everything in Antorus is working as intended, especially after yesterday's hotfixes.

[Einsz]

https://twitter.com/WatcherDev/statu...42301431910400
Mythic Garrosh nerfed 48 hours of pre patch date.

Blizzard doesn't nerf Argus because they don't want to and it doesn't need it. There is no "to do list" there is no "buggy Antorus. Everything in Antorus is working as intended, especially after yesterday's hotfixes.

I wasn't referring to antorus being "buggy" but the game overall which puts antorus alone not as big of priority. You perhaps missed one of the most important tools being completely bugged that had to be disabled (communities) which was nr 1 prio to fix most likely as it affected everyone playing. As you said yourself during wod pre patch, which wasnt as bugged as this one, it took 48h for tuning changes. Also everything in antorus working as intended? How do you explain the tree graphic being buged? You need to run to center because of bugged animation instead of being able to touch it, pretty much the only major thing i noticed during our raid on sunday apart from certain abilities being out of line with what they were before that some (NOT ALL) got corrected today.

[Deleted]

I wasn't referring to antorus being "buggy" but the game overall which puts antorus alone not as big of priority. You perhaps missed one of the most important tools being completely bugged that had to be disabled (communities) which was nr 1 prio to fix most likely as it affected everyone playing. As you said yourself during wod pre patch, which wasnt as bugged as this one, it took 48h for tuning changes. Also everything in antorus working as intended? How do you explain the tree graphic being buged? You need to run to center because of bugged animation instead of being able to touch it, pretty much the only major thing i noticed during our raid on sunday apart from certain abilities being out of line with what they were before that some (NOT ALL) got corrected today.

I'm not suggesting there aren't bugs in game. I'm suggest that Antorus specifically is working as intended. The other parts of the game will see their own tuning at a later date but Antorus by itself is working as intended and has been nerfed beyond it's pre patch form at this point.

[Mussah]

This might be why wake of flames got nerfed



Our boy Ion is trying to soak 'em all

[Marrilaife]

Yeah, monks are good, even better than before, we got that. How about DKs? We have 2 DKs on balls catching duty and they complained incessantly how they can't mitigate or heal balls damage nearly as good as before pre-patch.

The only problem with DK is lower RP generation so if you were used to self healing everything in 3 globals, you can't anymore. Healers have to heal tanks nowadays, sorry.

I ditched the deathlord ring on prepatch and went for leggo trinket instead, and still going with rune tap. This is the rent soul damage:
Before patch:

After patch:


Make out of it what you wish, but I didn't feel it was that much of a problem, unless the tank didn't die on 5th scythe and we got extra orbs.

DK spec: blooddrinker, hemostasis, foul bulwark, rune tap, wraith walk, bloodworms, red thirst (could go with purgatory but it delays the suicide part). Runspeed boots / leggo trinket / pantheon.

[Lad]

The only problem with DK is lower RP generation so if you were used to self healing everything in 3 globals, you can't anymore. Healers have to heal tanks nowadays, sorry.

I ditched the deathlord ring on prepatch and went for leggo trinket instead, and still going with rune tap. This is the rent soul damage:
Before patch:

After patch:


Make out of it what you wish, but I didn't feel it was that much of a problem, unless the tank didn't die on 5th scythe and we got extra orbs.

DK spec: blooddrinker, hemostasis, foul bulwark, rune tap, wraith walk, bloodworms, red thirst (could go with purgatory but it delays the suicide part). Runspeed boots / leggo trinket / pantheon.

But that's exactly the same point which also extends to Aggramar complaints of being harder. What's the point of tuning in a raid into 7.3.5 standards if we don't have 7.3.5 classes and specs? That's why they used to blanket nerf HFC and SoO when prepatch hit us: because everything changed and there's no reason to force groups to reprogress either by unbalanced spells or by specs being changed for next expansion.

You simply are not playing the same game.

[ramayana1423]

https://twitter.com/WatcherDev/statu...42301431910400
Mythic Garrosh nerfed 48 hours of pre patch date.

Blizzard doesn't nerf Argus because they don't want to and it doesn't need it. There is no "to do list" there is no "buggy Antorus. Everything in Antorus is working as intended, especially after yesterday's hotfixes.

It's amazing how stupid you are.
Infracted

- - - Updated - - -

Instead of picking and choosing the narative you want, to justfiy the state they released Antorus in, lets look at it objectively:

Regardless of expansion release, the following factors have always been present:
- Guilds are on intentional breaks.
- People being burned out, preventing guilds from raiding.
- People being unfamiliar with changes, causing performance to drop.
- Mechanical changes to essential roles (tanks, healers & dps alike) resulting in increase in errors and deaths.
- Changes to encounter mechanics and/or tuning, resulting in need for tactical change.

I see all of the above mentioned as an "excuse" as to why the content "feels" harder.

The matter of the fact is, ALL of these factors were ALSO present during, MoP & WoD launch (to name a few), and during the first week of those, we saw a dramatic INCREASE to boss kills, not a decrease as we're seeing now.

Give it whatever label you want to - blizzard done goofed.
Does it matter more to some guilds than others? Of course it does! That doesn't change anything though.

Personally, we pushed our raid from Wed to today Tues (EU) in anticipation of this major blunder by Blizzard.
And unless hundreds of EU guilds did the same as us, we'll have seen the worst pre-patch raid experience since (possibly) forever.

I can't get over how many people are so stupid that they don't understand this. Every single excuse they make for the drop in kills has been present in every single prepatch since forever. It's like they think this prepatch is the first time ever that players had to learn new rotations and deal with burn out and taken intentional breaks.

[Deja Thoris]

https://twitter.com/WatcherDev/statu...42301431910400
Mythic Garrosh nerfed 48 hours of pre patch date.

Blizzard doesn't nerf Argus because they don't want to and it doesn't need it. There is no "to do list" there is no "buggy Antorus. Everything in Antorus is working as intended, especially after yesterday's hotfixes.

You said everythin was working as intended before the hotfixes that changed things by 30-70%

At least you're consistent. Consistently stupid.

[Dracodraco]

I can't get over how many people are so stupid that they don't understand this. Every single excuse they make for the drop in kills has been present in every single prepatch since forever. It's like they think this prepatch is the first time ever that players had to learn new rotations and deal with burn out and taken intentional breaks.

The short and sweet answer is that while all of that was present previously, they did overnerf the raids massively previously as well. People complaining it's harder now than it used to be aren't correct from a numbers-perspective, even after class changes; Stuffs just different and it didn't get hit with the massive nerfbat we had previous expansions.
If that's an "error" is very subjective. Personally I see it as a good thing that the difficulty didn't get absolutely fucking removed, but kept relatively the same. It means new people aren't falsely getting deep into mythic and having their hopes shattered the instant we're back on progress again (or, alternatively, end up with a disaster like EN's difficulty because the people expecting to do mythic couldn't handle more). The people who could kill it previously absolutely can now; DPS is higher, damage taken is lower, and nothing will do absurd amounts of damage anymore.

[ramayana1423]

The short and sweet answer is that while all of that was present previously, they did overnerf the raids massively previously as well. People complaining it's harder now than it used to be aren't correct from a numbers-perspective, even after class changes; Stuffs just different and it didn't get hit with the massive nerfbat we had previous expansions.
If that's an "error" is very subjective. Personally I see it as a good thing that the difficulty didn't get absolutely fucking removed, but kept relatively the same. It means new people aren't falsely getting deep into mythic and having their hopes shattered the instant we're back on progress again (or, alternatively, end up with a disaster like EN's difficulty because the people expecting to do mythic couldn't handle more). The people who could kill it previously absolutely can now; DPS is higher, damage taken is lower, and nothing will do absurd amounts of damage anymore.

Sees a 70% drop in kills.
Claims difficulty is the same.

This is the kind of stupidity I can't wrap my brain around.

[rebecca191]

They left damage similar in relation to HP pool, but left us with less healer CDs and weaker CDs and such to deal with it. So yes, it's harder if numbers stayed the "same" but we have less tools.

[Dracodraco]

Sees a 70% drop in kills.
Claims difficulty is the same.

This is the kind of stupidity I can't wrap my brain around.

But difficulty is the same, apart from the two things on aggramar (shorter grip range, and the AOE explosion when 2x adds blow does more damage than it should compared to previously - not that it matters if done right, but when it goes wrong it hurts). I've done the fights. I should know. We do *way* more damage right now (our aggramar kill with 5 healers this week was *50* seconds quicker than with 4 healers), and most healing-related stuff has been nerfed to be just as easy as before.

People might perceive it as being more difficult, but it's not. After the most recent amount of hotfixes, it's no longer an issue of stuff being too difficult compared to prepatch; It's an issue of people being unable to adjust.

Also, using the numbers from WCL is a bit iffy; For example, the patch leading up to prepatch week, had 170 aggramar kills less than argus, while the garothi and argus kills were fairly close (1098 to 1033).
The only way that works is if over 100 guilds forgot to log aggramar, or they were all extending argus.

Compared to this week, where it's more like 1100/600/400, versus 1100/900/1000; Clearly a lot of the guilds couldn't rekill aggramar, which I've said numerous times is the only boss that feels bad.

They left damage similar in relation to HP pool, but left us with less healer CDs and weaker CDs and such to deal with it. So yes, it's harder if numbers stayed the "same" but we have less tools.

Correction: A single healer can't muscle their way through a difficult mechanic, they have to work together. Outside of Aggramars' add explosions, all other damage has now been nerfed to either be equal to previous numbers, or in the event of things like chains on Argus, be significantly lower. If your healers can't keep up it's not because they lost their throughput CDs; It's because they haven't adjusted to their new kits yet.

(also, it isn't even really true a single healer can't cover a mechanic; https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...70&end=2764860 was us on double-break this week, 2 ticks was covered by devo as it was used too early for the reduction, rest was just tranq power).

[ramayana1423]

People might perceive it as being more difficult, but it's not. After the most recent amount of hotfixes, it's no longer an issue of stuff being too difficult compared to prepatch; It's an issue of people being unable to adjust.

Yup, 70% of guilds just perceived it as being harder and became worse players this week. That's it. You cracked the case. It's never happened in a prepatch before now, but hey there is a first time for everything right!?

[Lad]

But difficulty is the same, apart from the two things on aggramar (shorter grip range, and the AOE explosion when 2x adds blow does more damage than it should compared to previously - not that it matters if done right, but when it goes wrong it hurts). I've done the fights. I should know. We do *way* more damage right now (our aggramar kill with 5 healers this week was *50* seconds quicker than with 4 healers), and most healing-related stuff has been nerfed to be just as easy as before.

People might perceive it as being more difficult, but it's not. After the most recent amount of hotfixes, it's no longer an issue of stuff being too difficult compared to prepatch; It's an issue of people being unable to adjust.

Also, using the numbers from WCL is a bit iffy; For example, the patch leading up to prepatch week, had 170 aggramar kills less than argus, while the garothi and argus kills were fairly close (1098 to 1033).
The only way that works is if over 100 guilds forgot to log aggramar, or they were all extending argus.

Compared to this week, where it's more like 1100/600/400, versus 1100/900/1000; Clearly a lot of the guilds couldn't rekill aggramar, which I've said numerous times is the only boss that feels bad.




Correction: A single healer can't muscle their way through a difficult mechanic, they have to work together. Outside of Aggramars' add explosions, all other damage has now been nerfed to either be equal to previous numbers, or in the event of things like chains on Argus, be significantly lower. If your healers can't keep up it's not because they lost their throughput CDs; It's because they haven't adjusted to their new kits yet.

(also, it isn't even really true a single healer can't cover a mechanic; was us on double-break this week, 2 ticks was covered by devo as it was used too early for the reduction, rest was just tranq power).

So, you are just defending that Argus is basically the same. Even if that's the case, the specs and tools each player brings to the encounter aren't the same as they were before. This will lead to reprogress which is basically what you are claiming by "players not adjusted to their new kits". Through what we've seen from the other prepatches, this isn't something you should be dealing with right now. Also, when they designed Antorus, they surely took into account how every spec worked by 7.3.5, not how things are currently on 8.0.1 with classes and "their new kits". Specs working differently isn't something easily measured/estimated by numbers so you can affirm: dmg taken % is the same, so you will be dealing with it the same way. It might not be your guild's specific case, but most kills were taking 5 healers in order to overcome the "changes they haven't got adjusted to".

If you think that's ok, it's up to you. It's just not in line with every other expansion pre-patch.