Morally Grey? ARE YOU KIDDING ME.[Spoilers]

[Aucald]

But she's not an idiot either. It's out of character for her to show emotional outburst, especially an emotional response from a no-name night elf. She's supposed to be calm and calculative.

I wouldn't say it's out of her character for her to be emotional, nor do I think her action is "idiotic" on the face of it. Sylvanas likes to present a calm and collected exterior to her followers and soldiers, but I suspect her inner self isn't anywhere close to calm or collected - she's a maelstrom inside, and sometimes that inner self shows her true nature in unguarded moments. Her anger and despair are showcased in "Edge of Night" where she rages against the now-dead Arthas as well as the inert form of Bolvar, and then commits suicide as she feels there is nothing left for her. She loses composure again in "War Crimes," and yet again in the "Reunion" comic when confronted by her less-than-sympathetic sisters.

Delaryn, probably unintentionally or unknowingly, jabbed several of Sylvanas' proverbial buttons by reminding her of what she was, and what she had lost - her reaction, and the grand gesture that followed, reflect that rage pretty directly. I would say her action was calculated - albeit the product of some pretty dark calculus, but also honest to what she truly is.

[Tabrotar]

Honestly, Sylvanas was never based on Honor, she was a ranger general, win by any means necessary, she wanted to destroy the hope anyone in the Alliance had of winning this war, she realized that just taking over the tree was not a good enough measure, she wanted to crush their Hope, she originally wanted to kill Malfurion to do this, when she can't do this, she changes her stance, and then realizes after talking to the elf, the only way to make people lose hope is to watch them lose everything.

Morally Gray or not, remember that these are the people that did not come to help the highborn, and when they were killed by Arthas and raised as undead, the alliance turned there backs on them, and tried to kill them, Sylvanas has not forgotten, and she let all her fury out all at once.

How would the Nightelves should even have known where the Hignelfes were at that point because if you would know the Lore the first time for over 10k years the Nightelves even interacted with someone was when they first encountered the Horde after Thrall lead therm to Kalimdor.

[Feanoro]

Sylvie having tantrums is definitely not without precedent. Blighting Gilneas was another tantrum in spite of express orders not to do so.

[DesFolk]

I think the main problem isn’t that Sylvanas burned down the tree. Actually, the problem is a circumstance of this action. As a Horde player, I still don’t understand why we had to attack the Alliance. I don’t see any valuable reason to do it. Notably, I can’t get over with how druids of the Horde (not only them) agreed with Sylvanas’ statement ”Malfurion must die!”. The Legion was defeated, despite this fact, I don’t think the friendship between different members of factions inside the class orders disappeared. Many Horde players are angry because the burning was showed like a typical cartoon evil deed and they just don’t believe in this action.
I’m truly confident if Blizzard writes another case of war and circumstances of the burning, however more natural and believable, the most of the Horde players would have agreed with their Warchief and stand together against the Alliance. But now I see a very weak story, which is weaker than a story of Garrosh in MoP. Many Horde players expected to get a good plot twist like during the Broken Shore trailers, but as a result, they got a shitshow because of reasons.

[jcf190]

Sylvannas isn't morally grey, but the situation IS.

HOW?

I'm gonna play a devil's advocate for a moment.

Now, the original plan was to capture Teldrassil in order to rob Alliance of where they would transport Azerite to Eastern Kingdoms, all the while making sure that Kalimdor becomes predominantly Horde controlled territory. The idea being that they would subdue the night elven population by killing Malfurion in order to break their spirit.

As we all know, in a fight, which Sylvannas was loosing, Saurfang interferes out of duty to protect his warchief and realizes later what he did was interfering in a 1v1 fight. Which is the reason why he let Tyrande take wounded Malfurion away, even though Sylvannas told him to finish him off and bring him his head.

So now that she's been robbed of her masterstroke to break the will of night elven populate and take the tree for the Horde, she's in serious trouble. Alliance fleet will arrive and without them being able to take Teldrassil before there arrival, they will push the Horde back to Durotar and the retaliation for what they did will be immense.
So with that in mind, if Sylvannas couldn't take Teldrassil for herself, then she'll rob Alliance of a base on Kalimdor.
And the reason why Saurfang didn't say a word (which people are complaining after displaying an honorable act) is because he probably knows this happened because of him for letting a key figure in Sylvannas' plan go.

So as a war tactic, this seems valid and Sylvannas did the right thing. Hell, after the cinematic plays out and you completed the quest, Sylvannas says that she did not predict this to happen.

PROBLEM IS that the cinematic portrayed it as if Sylvannas burned down Teldrassil in a heat of the moment out of sheer spite.
So there seems to be a disconnect between the quest and the cinematic because Sylvannas didn't berate Saurfang for disobeying her command.

My issue is, even after reading this, is that the Alliance has never been the aggressor, so the whole war is a total farce. The Alliance had the chance to dismantle the Horde on several occasions and didn't. Why would that suddenly change because of Azerite existing? What is Sylvanas worried about exactly? The Horde [she] started all this nonsense.

[Jetstream]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_war


She's trying to break the Alliance. It's a doctrine of warfare. One that pretty much everyone has used at one point or another.

[lockybalboa]

So why did none of the self proclaimed "honorable" cowmen and orcs resist against the atrocity? Honorable my arse, bunch of hypocritical wusses.

[mickybrighteyes]

My issue is, even after reading this, is that the Alliance has never been the aggressor, so the whole war is a total farce. The Alliance had the chance to dismantle the Horde on several occasions and didn't. Why would that suddenly change because of Azerite existing? What is Sylvanas worried about exactly? The Horde [she] started all this nonsense.

more like no one ever acknowledges when the alliance act as aggressors or downplays the events or gives the justification of other events as the reasons. Like how Stormwind's pressence on Kalimdor and trying to attack Mulgore was caused by Garrosh's offensive push into Keldorei territory (nvm the areas referenced aren't exactly nearby). Or the Thrall capture plan that went sideways at the start of the events of cataclysm. Or maybe, since it's discussed to death, the time Genn decided it was a good time to ignore legion forces and try and assassinate a warchief and sink a horde fleet.

Everytime The alliance approaches anything close to being 'aggressors' we have some writer come in and somehow a horde entity shifts into overt cartoon villain levels of evil for no apparent reason. Now we got Sylvanas monologuing about how life is pain instead of lamenting undeath as a curse

[Maylander]

Sylvannas isn't morally grey, but the situation IS.

HOW?

I'm gonna play a devil's advocate for a moment.

Now, the original plan was to capture Teldrassil in order to rob Alliance of where they would transport Azerite to Eastern Kingdoms, all the while making sure that Kalimdor becomes predominantly Horde controlled territory. The idea being that they would subdue the night elven population by killing Malfurion in order to break their spirit.

As we all know, in a fight, which Sylvannas was loosing, Saurfang interferes out of duty to protect his warchief and realizes later what he did was interfering in a 1v1 fight. Which is the reason why he let Tyrande take wounded Malfurion away, even though Sylvannas told him to finish him off and bring him his head.

So now that she's been robbed of her masterstroke to break the will of night elven populate and take the tree for the Horde, she's in serious trouble. Alliance fleet will arrive and without them being able to take Teldrassil before there arrival, they will push the Horde back to Durotar and the retaliation for what they did will be immense.
So with that in mind, if Sylvannas couldn't take Teldrassil for herself, then she'll rob Alliance of a base on Kalimdor.
And the reason why Saurfang didn't say a word (which people are complaining after displaying an honorable act) is because he probably knows this happened because of him for letting a key figure in Sylvannas' plan go.

So as a war tactic, this seems valid and Sylvannas did the right thing. Hell, after the cinematic plays out and you completed the quest, Sylvannas says that she did not predict this to happen.

PROBLEM IS that the cinematic portrayed it as if Sylvannas burned down Teldrassil in a heat of the moment out of sheer spite.
So there seems to be a disconnect between the quest and the cinematic because Sylvannas didn't berate Saurfang for disobeying her command.

The situation is hardly morally grey. Name a single, historic event where an army had already won the battle and then proceeded to slaughter the women and children, yet it is still considered tactically wise or morally grey? It's a massacre, and an atrocity. On top of that, it's bound to enrage people in both factions, and it killed off her top bargaining chip (the civilians, especially the children, of the Night Elves), which means she's losing on both the domestic and international front at the same time.

[probert]

Story writing was weak, dialogue was weak, rationale was weakly presented.

First strike to eliminate a potential threat is a valid storyline that could have been handled much better.

Storylines and quests have been poor since Cataclysm, with the exception of a good chunk of Pandaria. Even Legion -- which was a good expansion overall -- just rehashed previous themes and characters as a do-over.

I`d care more about the burning of Teldrassil if I was invested in the lore. But I`m not, its C-grade fantasy fiction. Warcraft has been riding the Warcraft 3 high for 15 years, and still haven`t figured out what to do with it.

[Velshin]

What upset me tbh not purely about Sylvanas being evil or whatever. The main reason why it is annoying imo because it is soooo predictable. Blizzard writing was kinda always predictable you can't have some major twist in the story like song of ice and fire level of twists and surprise.


For many months after the Blizzcon 2017 a lot of players were speculating and thinking about who did it because being Sylvanas will be too predictable and obvious. And in the end it is waaay to predictable but then again I am not surprised to be honest.

[petok]

This is World of W A R craft after all.

This is (was) World of WarCRAFT, not WarCRIMES

[mickybrighteyes]

The situation is hardly morally grey. Name a single, historic event where an army had already won the battle and then proceeded to slaughter the women and children, yet it is still considered tactically wise or morally grey?

>.> WW2 pacific theatre island hopping to mainland japan but at some point around Iwo Jima we swap to the atom bomb and send a fatman and little boy to have some fun on the mainland?

[Clone]

I think Delaryn "inspired" Sylvanas with her last words to take this last and total step toward trying to break the fighting spirit of the Kaldorei - before that Sylvanas was just going to stick to her guns and continue the invasion of Teldrassil, but her memories of Arthas' campaign in Quel'Thalas and her anger at Delaryn's parting jab gave her the idea that what was truly needed what for her to "destroy hope" in the form of Teldrassil itself.

I still maintain that this action on Sylvanas' part was driven by a deep and powerful (and psychopathic) rage she maintains in the core of her being - a twisted aspect of her own undead state. But though tinged with inherent madness it also makes perverted sense for Teldrassil's destruction to replace Malfurion's death as the anvil the Kaldorei would be broken against. I just think she seriously misunderstands the nature of her opponent, and what her actions will truly cause. In many ways, I think she's no longer capable of understanding that, just as she calls herself a "fool" for the bravery and sacrifice she shows in the Third War before Arthas cuts her down. She quite literally has no essential humanity left to her at this point, it has been drowned out by pain and rage.

That's an interest take. From the cutscene I got the impression she wanted to make other people go through the same things she did.

[Arcarsenal]

I wish there was an option after the cinematic to throw down your weapon and defect to the alliance.

[Maylander]

>.> WW2 pacific theatre island hopping to mainland japan but at some point around Iwo Jima we swap to the atom bomb and send a fatman and little boy to have some fun on the mainland?

The other potential scenario was a full blown invasion into Japan, which would likely have caused many more deaths. That being said, it's still up for debate:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate...a_and_Nagasaki

However, I mentioned a scenario where "an army had already won the battle and then proceeded to slaughter the women and children". The US had hardly won the battle. Japan had no real chance of winning, but their standing army was still massive (several million soldiers).

[Highlord Hanibuhl]

I wish there was an option after the cinematic to throw down your weapon and defect to the alliance.

You're more than welcome for Siege of the Banshee Queen where the New Horde and the Alliance fight to take her down and the Horde gets ANOTHER warchief..

[Reyuna]

You're more than welcome for Siege of the Banshee Queen where the New Horde and the Alliance fight to take her down and the Horde gets ANOTHER warchief..

No thanks. I'd rather have a raid to kill the sissy crybaby boy king instead.

[Maylander]

I wish there was an option after the cinematic to throw down your weapon and defect to the alliance.

I was actually discussing this with a friend. It would have been interesting to get a "defect" option. Not a race change or anything, but genuinely playing a Tauren Druid as Alliance. It's obviously not happening though.

[Reyuna]

I was actually discussing this with a friend. It would have been interesting to get a "defect" option. Not a race change or anything, but genuinely playing a Tauren Druid as Alliance. It's obviously not happening though.

Because the Alliance are whiter and white, right?