Tyrande vs Saurfang

[Velshin]

he goes to malfurion to finish him, but he don't

besides, the ingame scenario is not even canon, lol

Oh? so when I got you in this argument you go with " It is an ingame scenario not canon bla bla" but it is ok for you to say stuff like Tyrande didn't have a bow when clearly she had both dagger and bow just to win an argument eh? man talk about disgusting biased really haha.


Oh and no he didn't wanna finish him off did you even do the questline man oh my god? he even flatly said he regrets doing it because it is not honorable and refused to continue which made him very vulnerable to Tyrande.

[Florena]

If you gave Tyrande an axe and made them fight with no magic or goddess blessings, Saurfang. Both going all out, Tyrande easily and I hear the novellas make this clearer.

Remember in war of the ancients when Tyrande was captured by the Legion and Highborne but Elune protected her from harm throughout it?

[derpkitteh]

its an ability the light grant, not elune, and this can be easy debatable, the light grant something? it have conscience , or it was just turalyon doing it? we don't even know if elune is real, lol, so yeah i call deus ex machina spell, just like the fel poison of randomfelguard#5863 who killed vol'jin

the light does have a... somewhat primal sentience. people's gods grant them their own light powers.

this is how the light has always worked. as long as you have faith, you will get powers, unless you have a deity that actively chooses not to grant those powers. if tyrande was like a bloodknight, she could rely on her faith in her own ability to wield the light and she would never lack powers.

either way, it's always deus ex machina when the light is involved, because the light is a "deity" deus ex machina just means "act of god" basically, and the light, elune, all that are basically god.

[Syegfryed]

Oh? so when I got you in this argument you go with " It is an ingame scenario not canon bla bla" but it is ok for you to say stuff like Tyrande didn't have a bow when clearly she had both dagger and bow just to win an argument eh? man talk about disgusting biased really haha.

when i said that i clearly didn't know about the novela, blablabla biased blabla

Oh and no he didn't wanna finish him off did you even do the questline man oh my god? he even flatly said he regrets doing it because it is not honorable and refused to continue which made him very vulnerable to Tyrande.

exactly he didn't want finish malfurion, so?

[Velshin]

when i said that i clearly didn't know about the novela, blablabla biased blabla



exactly he didn't want finish malfurion, so?

Are you twisting your words now? you just previously said "he goes to malfurion to finish him, but he don't"

He didn't wanna finish him off in the first place it was just a reflex and he immediately regrets doing it afterward again did you even do the quest?

And you didn't know about the novella and yet you made your own assumption eh?

[Syegfryed]

Are you twisting your words now? you just previously said "he goes to malfurion to finish him, but he don't"

He didn't wanna finish him off in the first place it was just a reflex and he immediately regrets doing it afterward again did you even do the quest?

this is what you understand from the scenario, and that was what i understand, he goes to him, but he did't finish him

[Thage]

Saurfang, she had a dagger. Must have left her bow in Teldrassil.

She had her bow when I took my void elf through the questline. Drawn and everything--she was ready to put one between his eyes if he so much as farted wrong, it looked like.

On-topic: Good question. Depends on if Tyrande can wear him down before he has time to charge in--we've seen from the BFA cinematic that Saurfang is not impervious to arrows, and enough of them can piss him off enough that he needs to take a fiver before he causes another Shattering (I kid, I kid). Nameless archers managed to bring him to his knees before Sylvanas rallies the troops; stands to reason that Tyrande hammering him with arrows and magic could drop him if he can't close the distance fast enough. On the flip side, there's not much room between the two in that scene; if he can't power through her initial salvo then his heart's not really in it and he really is just looking to die in battle.

[Checkt]

One-shotted? He got a hit from behind while he was already in a fight. Sylvanas somehow got him down to 30% even if we're gonna use the ingame event as an example. I'm not saying they underplayed Malfurion's power for plot convenience, but they underplayed Malfurion's power for plot convenience.

If you look at their health pools, Slyvanas actually had more health left than him...I'm not saying your favorite mary sue just isn't a god among the other warcraft heroes, but your favorite mary sue just isn't a god among the other warcraft heroes.

[Cucultlan]

without Elune shenanigans Saurfang without question since the "long live and expertice" of Tyrande hasnt doing nothing for her since Varian can correct them and in vanilla the one leading the combined forces of the NE and Horde was Saurfang not any of those "long lives and expertice" NE that was with him.

But as its show that Tyrande can pull his Elune shit, poor Saurfang doesnt stand a chance.

[omeomorfismo]

so you see, it isn't a fight but ambush

thats the way assassins and spies fight?

[Deleted]

I cannot stand post-Warcraft 3 Tyrande, but nor can I imagine a scenario where she wouldn't mop the floor with Saurfang. He's like, the best Warrior alive, but he's still just a warrior. Even in Warcraft, that can only mean so much. And she has millennia on him. It's not like she would have to fight fair either. That's her forest. She probably has sentinels and druids hiding in ambush, punji pits, sentinel owls, quasi-sentient beasts on hand, Starfall, master archery, moon-blessed arrows, deadly glave skills, and even if a Mary Suefang overcomes all that she'll have her trump card "THE GODDESS IS MY SHIELD" bullshit to stop his axe. Ughhhh. It's terrible but I don't see how he could win. Drinking the blood of Mannoroth?

Borixgar was also only a warrior but no one could defeat him

[Yvaelle]

you're talking more gameplay mechanics than lore.

I'm talking about gameplay mechanics in a game.
I would consider gameplay in both the Warcraft games and World of Warcraft to be more canonical in the case of a game, than the books.

Take Lord of the Rings as comparison. What's more canonical? The stories in the Silmarillion, a book by the original author in the original medium, or the Peter Jackson movies, a retelling by a different director in a different medium? If ever there is a conflict in canon, the books supercede the movies. In the case WoW, a game, the game supercedes the books or movie(s).

most priests don't use shadow at all, because every time you do you hear whispers while channeling it. it's a legitimately evil source of power.

I invite you take another look through the Priest spellbook. Mind spells are all Shadow spells: Mind Control, Mind Vision, etc. Shadowfiend is a Shadow spell. Shadow Word: Pain is a Shadow spell. Fade is a Shadow spell. Psychic Scream is a Shadow spell. All Priests use Shadow magic regularly.

The philosophical difference between Paladins and Priests, is that Priests view Light and Shadow as a balance between two essential forces of creation. Paladins think Light can exist without Shadow, that evil and Shadow are synonymous, and that if they could just expunge Shadow from existence, evil would vanish with it.

shadow works purely on willpower. it's not a spell, it's your will saying what to do. that does take training, obviously. but tyrande doesn't use shadow, at all. she uses elune's light. everything tyrande does is through elune's blessing. there's been times she just wasn't able to do anything because elune didn't answer.

Are you basing this something other than your headcanon? Is this written somewhere I'm not aware of?

Symbolically, a geostationary moon is a perfect representation for duality: for light AND shadow. The moon, both our own and Elune, has a "light side" and a "dark side", a face which we see when we look at it, and a face which is permanently turned outward, away from the planet. Virtually every cultural on Earth uses the moon for this same symbol, and arrived at it often independently, because it is a constant in all our lives, and that is the one thing we can always all see about it.

As further symbolism of duality, the moon is often contrasted with the Sun, because it is usually only visible when the Sun is setting or absent. The Sun universally represents life and is literally "The Light". The Moon is therefore contrasted with the Sun, it by extension becomes The Shadow, or "The Other/Outsider". We are called Night Elves to give homage not to the Sun, but to the moon and the Night it represents, which is the face or anthropomorphization of the Night/Shadow/Other.

In effect, Night Elves worship the idea that there is benevolence even in Shadow/Night: for that is what Elune represents. This is juxtaposed with the conflicting duality the The Church of the Holy Light, and even The Church of the Forgotten Shadow, views the balance between Light and Dark. Night Elves view Shadow as potentially benevolent, and are wary of things claiming to speak on behalf of the Light: as recently exemplified by Illidans rejection of The Gift of the Lightborne.

We night elves don't see Light and Shadow as an eternal duel between equal enemies, we see them as two passionate lovers intertwined. Elune represents to us that we must see that there is kindness and compassion and beauty even in the darkness. Our entire race can Shadowmeld, this is not merely slapping on a Ghillie Suit or ducking behind a tree, this is Shadow magic - not the whispers of old gods - but the welcomed refuge of an old friend.

We don't articulate this much to the humans because we know how they will misconstrue our beliefs for shadow-worship - but that is why you would make the Moon, and the Night it represents, your god.

gameplay makes fel and arcane seem like dbz level shit, but in lore you're casting a spell. think khadgar when you empowered your artifact "kirin'var torel, ahm shalar azakim!"

So because his words are incomprehensible, it's a science, but if I speak the word Pain and you feel it, mine is floofy prayers because you think you know the meaning of the word? All casters speak words into reality, the only difference between Power Words and occult incantation is Priests know it is their will that ultimately manifests reality, not the practiced recital of arcane incantations they barely comprehend.

Mages and Warlocks meticulously practice the arcane procedures of magic, what another once spoke, and the magic result it gave. Priests know that it is ultimately will that manifests reality we lack the procedural steps, but don't need them because we understand the process to write them for ourselves. The words of power are our spells, but what ultimately matters is our will to power, our intention with them, not the words themselves.

it's not the same for light. it's not even the same for shadow. light requires your faith, and the light does the action through you.

I would argue your faith that the Light wills it so (even if it doesn't care about your petty personal problems), grants the magically inclined the power to manifest reality. It is therefore Zeal and Righteousness which makes the practicioners of Light powerful, not the Light itself, not Divine Intervention for every spell. If this were not the case, then their Faith would be irrelevant - they could be completely faithless in the Light, but if the Light willed it so, it would use them as a conduit anyways.

If you are right, than all practioners of the Light have no free will, they are merely vessels through which the Light acts. If I am right, the Light is more akin to a wand or other locus of power - belief in themselves and that their own cause is just grants them the will to make it so.

shadow requires you to command it, have knowledge on how to command it, then your will is manifest in shadow.

I don't believe we can "command" shadow or light at all, they are far beyond mortal ken, let alone mortal command. They are the two primordial forces that created the entire universe, and existed before it, and will exist after it (in Azeroth).

As a Priest, I can shape my hatred into a spike that gores into the will of my enemies. I can carve from my desperation a heal that saves the life of my allies. I can forge their sliver of self-doubt into a crippling existential crisis that sends them screaming into the dark forest. I can prey upon their own darkest moments, their desire to turn head-on into traffic or leap from the lumber mill cliff, that if I should whisper Death, they would obey gladly. That is not the divine intervention of the Light, or Xe'ra, or Yogg Saron, or the Void Lords, not the Light, not the Shadow: that is my will made reality.

The word of magic are irrelevant, I could whisper "Cucumber" with sufficient malicious intent and watch a stoic foe turn their own knife upon their face: magic is borne of will, not words. If I were merely invoking the Shadow to act on my words, my stoic foe might find themselves awkwardly sucking a cucumber - if my intention was lost in translation.

like when alleria killed the demon hunting her and turalyon, she willed blades of shadow to appear and stabbed it with them.

Willpower takes deliberate action to train, just as reciting incantations do. The ultimate point here is it is we are not commanding the light or shadow, they are not interceding because they wish it so. I will it so, and so it is. The Shadow didn't distract from its cosmological activities to come down to Argus and forge some shadow blades for Alleria. Elune doesn't really care about any of us, she's sentient but she's got her own moon-stuff to worry about. Gods do not bend to our will. But reality can.

[TheRagebear]

If you look at their health pools, Slyvanas actually had more health left than him...I'm not saying your favorite mary sue just isn't a god among the other warcraft heroes, but your favorite mary sue just isn't a god among the other warcraft heroes.

Which she realistically shouldn't have. Malfurion is repeatedly mentioned both in and out of game to be the most powerful mortal on Azeroth. The fact that she was able to hit him at all with anything less than an ambush is silly, but then that's Blizzard's fault for building him up that way from the beginning. And I'm sorry that you, like the rest of the Horde fanboys, have no other answer to a character you dislike than calling them a sue.

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sure a dagger would be enough to bypass heavy armor, also, its a good strategy fight an orc melee

They were a spell, you dunce. But like I said, everyone conveniently ignored the picture from the novella to fit their narrative.

[Syegfryed]

They were a spell, you dunce. But like I said, everyone conveniently ignored the picture from the novella to fit their narrative.

how the hell do you want everyone know about a novela who just some few guys have it? we were basing in the ingame happenings, you don't need to be a jerk

[TheRagebear]

how the hell do you want everyone know about a novela who just some few guys have it? we were basing in the ingame happenings, you don't need to be a jerk

The picture was posted right here though.

[Syegfryed]

The picture was posted right here though.

and my comment obviously was before i saw that, and i already take my words before you come

[MrSaggins]

He one shotted the most powerful druid alive....but yeah whiny priest girl who had like one cool moment in 30 years of a game would win?

The Druid wasn't in bear form. We all mess up sometimes.

While I agree with the general thought, don't forget that his brother, arguably a weaker warrior (not weak, weaker than Saurfang), managed to injure Sargeras. So I wouldn't write the "just a warrior" just yet. If gets in melee with her no amount of bullshit Blizzard plot-armor would save her really. And in that point in time she was what, 9-10 feet away?

I mean if Cenarius wants to give Varok a cool axe that shatters Elune magic to kill Tyrande too I'm down to see it. That would be a sick plot twist.

Borixgar was also only a warrior but no one could defeat him

And that's why he's still alive today, side-by-side, slaying Night Elves with his brother? (:

[alt-ithist]

Nuh, he takes it back

Oh man, I can imagine him yanking it out of his spine. Will malfurion be in a wheelchair from now on? Do they have wheelchairs in Azeroth?

[Kwento]

Oh man, I can imagine him yanking it out of his spine. Will malfurion be in a wheelchair from now on? Do they have wheelchairs in Azeroth?

Drek’thar has one, so yeah... But no, knowing Malfurion, he would get miraculously healed soon enough.

[Kantoro]

It is always amusing when someone puts forth an opinion and when other ppl disagree, said person knots their undies.