Basic income recipients react to one of world's largest experiments being cancelled

[Jaransan]

Fantastic...for me. But why should I be subsidised by the taxpayer? If I want more money I should either work harder, longer or find a better paying job.

Sorry, where exactly are you from? Australia or something I guess just glancing over 'Out Back'? In Canada we pay *alot* of taxes. Like, significantly more than people from other countries if I'm guessing right (and that, I admit, is anecdotal.) I've seen American's visiting the country become physically enraged when they have to pay tax on a purchase. Like 14% of literally everything anyone spends money on here goes to the government. Just... all the time, basically.

It's not outlandish for your completely fucking average citizen of the country to gaze upon the great inner workings of bureaucracy and think 'why the hell shouldn't I benefit from this?'

Plus, back tracking to the 14% statement, people having money means theirs more money circulating in our economy, which generally improves the economy and hence income and quality of life. And everything they're buying goes partially to the government so... well you get the idea. We actually had a similar program under the PREVIOUS Trudeau that was ALSO shutdown prematurely. God forbid they just let the god damn study finish so the numbers can speak for themselves. Then everyone could shut the fuck up about it.

[Torto]

Work harder? How does the double the amount of work in the same time frame equals no extra money for me if I'm hourly or salary.
Work longer? Can't company won't let me get overtime or over 40 hours a week.
Get a different job? Not always possible or economically viable or maxed out already.


Still think that if given the opportunity most people would do more than just sit on their butt at home and watch tv/facebook/play games.
You'd have more volunteering, going back to school, general better community, etc.
Problem is if you are working harder two or three jobs you have time for nothing but work.

The only barriers between you and a higher paying job are the barriers you put in front of yourself.

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Sorry, where exactly are you from? Australia or something I guess just glancing over 'Out Back'? In Canada we pay *alot* of taxes. Like, significantly more than people from other countries if I'm guessing right (and that, I admit, is anecdotal.) I've seen American's visiting the country become physically enraged when they have to pay tax on a purchase. Like 14% of literally everything anyone spends money on here goes to the government. Just... all the time, basically.

It's not outlandish for your completely fucking average citizen of the country to gaze upon the great inner workings of bureaucracy and think 'why the hell shouldn't I benefit from this?'

Plus, back tracking to the 14% statement, people having money means theirs more money circulating in our economy, which generally improves the economy and hence income and quality of life. And everything they're buying goes partially to the government so... well you get the idea. We actually had a similar program under the PREVIOUS Trudeau that was ALSO shutdown prematurely. God forbid they just let the god damn study finish so the numbers can speak for themselves. Then everyone could shut the fuck up about it.

I'm confused by your comment. In one breath your supporting taxpayers subsiding wages through a welfare system, and in the next breath your bemoaning the fact that Canadians pay too much tax.

[Jaransan]

The only barriers between you and a higher paying job are the barriers you put in front of yourself.

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I'm confused by your comment. In one breath your supporting taxpayers subsiding wages through a welfare system, and in the next breath your bemoaning the fact that Canadians pay too much tax.

I wasn't complaining at all. Just the simple facts. We pay a lot of taxes here. Its just life. If anything, Canadians have an immediate elseworlds story about what all our taxes are helping us have whenever we hear news stories about poor people having trouble in America, or Americans not being able to afford health care etc. I wouldn't call it better or worse, just different. Well. I'm proud of my country so I think its better, but I'm objective enough to realize that its mostly a neutral proposition once I pull the flag out of my ass.

[Frostea23]

Not familiar with Canadian politics, was this a purely partisan move or was the program actually not working?

As someone who is familiar with Canadian politics, this move was 100% entirely partisan. Ford promised he wouldn't cut the program and then did anyway, which is not surprising, but there are people who voted for him who feel betrayed.

They also turned back the clock on sex-ed curriculum that going to go into effect for partisan reasons as well, to "stick it to the libs". As well as cancelling wind turbine installations which means millions of dollars in wasted money already spent and breach of contract lawsuits/penalties, which his administration says are going to just legislate away as no longer liable for, which means that green energy companies are no longer going to want to ever do business with Ontario since they are going to be left holding the bag, but again, it was to "stick it to the libs" once again. Lastly, he cancelled the cap and trade program, which means companies are now left with all these worthless credits AND that the Federal carbon tax is going to go into effect because they cancelled cap and trade, which is far more punitive than the cap and trade program was, just because they wanted to stick it to the liberal party.

I could keep going, but yeah, a lot of partisan B.S.

[Xath]

Basic income will happen we are reaching a crossroads within the next 20 years due to automation of driving and other non skilled work that we will easily cross 30% unemployment. At this point we will either have UBI or be going full Mad Max.

[Total Crica]

Basic income will happen we are reaching a crossroads within the next 20 years due to automation of driving and other non skilled work that we will easily cross 30% unemployment. At this point we will either have UBI or be going full Mad Max.

How exactly will people who are starving/homeless/penniless be able to Mad Max an armed government that has plenty of money?

[Xath]

How exactly will people who are starving/homeless/penniless be able to Mad Max an armed government that has plenty of money?

How exactly are all the weapons in the US going to disappear?

Not to mention what makes you think the Army is going to stay loyal when their loved ones are dealing with those issues.

[Total Crica]

How exactly are all the weapons in the US going to disappear?

US civilians, especially starving/homeless/penniless US civilians, do not have access to nor the training to use the high-powered weaponry/battle-gear that the US government has access to and training to use. When I speak of the US government, I speak of the US military they command.

[Xath]

Civilians, especially poor/homeless/penniless civilians don't have any of the weapons that armed governments do, nor are they trained to use any of the weapons that armed government are trained to use.

You do understand that the army isn't going to stay loyal in the face of people starving right?

[Total Crica]

You do understand that the army isn't going to stay loyal in the face of people starving right?

I understand that is the hope of US civilians I personally know.

Other then that, I have no idea what the US military will actually do, as that scenario has yet to happen in my life-time.

I was simply pointing out that US civilians, if faced by opposition of the US military, wouldn't be able to Mad Max.

[Very Tired]

In that hypothetical future, you'd adjust tax systems to account for the difference.

The current tax system is predicated on an economy based on personal labour.
An economy based on automated labor would require a different tax system.

Since we can presume that corporations are making more money via the reduction in staffing costs, the sensible easy fix would be to scale up corporate taxes accordingly.

The main problem I see happening with that is this: Corporate Tax rates would have to be scaled up to fund a livable wage for everyone, which is basically already what min wage barely does for people. So businesses would switch to automation but still be taxed as if they were actually paying minimum wage workers like before. On top of now having the upkeep costs for an automated workforce, the main incentive for actually switching to automation is destroyed.

[Xath]

I understand that is the hope of US civilians I personally know.

Other then that, I have no idea what the US military will actually do, as that scenario has yet to happen in my life-time.

I was simply pointing out that US civilians, if faced by opposition of the US military, wouldn't be able to Mad Max.

It's not really a hope it's simple logic. People don't stay loyal when forced to kill their friends and neighbors and being poverty stricken themselves. The only reason feudalism "worked" as long as it did is there was simply no other alternative since anyone not under a lord would be forced under one much like a mafia protection fee. This also isn't factoring in the stockpiles of weaponry gangs have and that police have accrued in response to them. This would be worse than the Vietnam era protests because it would be Bob from down the street losing his job not those dang college kids while Bezos raked in billions there has been nothing like this to date. In the great depression everyone suffered in the hypothetical future the oligarchy at the top would be thriving along with the people who basically massage numbers to make more money via the stock game.

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The main problem I see happening with that is this: Corporate Tax rates would have to be scaled up to fund a livable wage for everyone, which is basically already what min wage barely does for people. So businesses would switch to automation but still be taxed as if they were actually paying minimum wage workers like before. On top of now having the upkeep costs for an automated workforce, the main incentive for actually switching to automation is destroyed.

Machines don't call in sick they might break down but there will be backups they don't have kids that come down sick or just not want to work that day. I can't tell you how many times I picked up wage slave hours because of someone calling in "sick" while posting on social media about being out somewhere having fun. Machines also would reduce workplace incidents to near zero probably shrink to near zero and a bunch of other stuff. They would more than pay for themselves there is a reason Mcdonalds is already using cashier kiosks it puts customers through so much faster. Mcdonald's benches and chairs suck for a reason they don't want you to sit down and have a leisurely meal they want you in buy your food eat and out so they can rotate quicker.

[Deianeira]

You don’t need data to prove anything.

My brand of canned chicken soup costs $3.

Suddenly everyone in the country starts getting free money from the government.

I raise the price of my product by 50 cents.

It’s capitalism.

And the government raise the tax on profits with 50%

[Blackmist]

I don't see how that was UBI anyway.

It's not universal unless everyone gets it.

[infinit]

I don't see how that was UBI anyway.

It's not universal unless everyone gets it.

it was a trial run.

[LedZeppelin]

You seem to be under the common misconceptions that

1. Living wage is common
and
2. That working for money magically makes it worth more.

It was a quote from a dire straits song but both things you said are completely wrong lmao

[Logwyn]

The only barriers between you and a higher paying job are the barriers you put in front of yourself.

Not completely all on me. There are a number of factors that aren't in my control or anyone else's.

[Hilhen7]

You do understand that the army isn't going to stay loyal in the face of people starving right?

Simple solution, guaranteed free food for members of the military and their families. I bet recruitment would actually increase.

[Blackmist]

it was a trial run.

Well do it in a certain place then, but you can't just have all the low income people on it. You need to see how high income people react as well. Otherwise the whole thing is pointless. After all, they're the ones who are ultimately going to be paying for it.

[Louisa Bannon]

Walmart Unveils Grocery-Picking Robots In Test Store
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b0b15abaa58128

This isn't a discussion for another generation. All the boneheaded morons that voted for Trump and support his absurd policies have been literally shooting themselves in the dick, repeatedly. The real truth is not only is coal mining not going to make a comeback, but most menial labor work is going bye-bye in quick step. Some now, and more later - all of it.

Amazon sees a future where supermarkets may only have a few security persons managing the whole store. You load a cart and walk out, no registers and no lines. Get what you want and go, the minute you step out the door you are billed.

Also This Robot Startup Just Raised $25 Million To Make Warehouse Fulfillment Easier
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexkna.../#1b49c33a6ffe

Robot cooks in the fast food joints and in your homes:
Robot Chef That Can Cook 2,000 Meals Set To Go On Sale In 2017
http://www.iflscience.com/technology...d-arrive-2017/

The reality is that the technology is there and it's basically going to happen very shortly. That's a fuckton of jobs that will simply disappear. If there's an uptick in other labor it will come in the way of more jobs for persons of higher than average intelligence - the guy that works in a warehouse today isn't necessarily the guy that can code for automation robots tomorrow, in fact that move is unlikely as hell. That's the way it is.

I'm not worried about myself at all. I have one of the most prestigious university degrees one could have. I also have a degree and done significant work in programming. There's also at least another half dozen things I am very knowledgeable about and quite good at.

I am worried about some of you. But hey, at least being on these forums means you have some rudimentary technical skills so maybe I'm not super worried about you either. Maybe you can be retrained. I am worried about that guy at the 7-11 that doesn't have other options because of a variety of things. The guy that mans the local gas station graveyard shift, that guy is not likely a genius and also has few options. Those jobs are going away.

Then what?