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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Bjoramier of Lordaeron View Post
    "Sylvanas Windrunner had committed genocide."

    How will sylvanas fanboys dig their way out of this one?
    It depends on what your definition of the word had is.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaikal21 View Post
    it is indeed the same alliance whether you like it or not, exactly the same. the alliance NEVER disbanded. it just accepted new members and changed capital. it IS indeed though the exact continuation of the alliance of lordaeron. proof here by the mighty aquamonkey, and chris metzen himself.
    It is the same Alliance in the sense that it's the same organization / political entity. I've never disagreed with that. What I meant was that the current Alliance doesn't carry the same behavior as the Alliance of Lordaeron (quoting myself in the post you quoted, "I'd say that there isn't any reason to trust that current Alliance would behave the same way as the Alliance of Lordaeron if one think carefully about it"). If you actually read the collection of quotes of Aquamonkey, you'd have realized that all of those were referring to the Alliance as the organization and had nothing to do with what I said. Those weren't talking about the behaviors at all, but the identity of the Alliance instead.

    That's why I brought up the example about Thrall's Horde and Sylvanas' Horde - both of them are the Horde, with the same leaders even. However, they don't act the same, nor do they have the same core values, so behavior-wise, one can't expect Sylvanas' Horde to do the same thing as Thrall's - which clearly, they don't.
    Last edited by Qualia; 2018-08-07 at 12:13 AM.
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang
    Donnons le sang de guillotine
    Pour guerir la secheresse de la guillotine
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    It depends on what your definition of the word had is.
    Pretty sure I saw this exact same comment before. I just can't put my finger on it.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Bennett View Post
    Which is incredible seeing as the Alliance has never formally divided or turned on itself, why would Sylvanas think Genn would just be like "fuck this I'm out" if Anduin chose to help the Night Elves?
    Yet Sylvanas gambit is still in place, even if it's not how she envisioned it; she has still inflicted a grievous wound hoping it destabilizes the alliance and makes it crumble from within. So far we only thing we have saying us she failed is that Genn just says so, disregarding how the stress of 2 now possibly 3 displaced peoples will affect the alliance on the long run.

    Sylvanas plan is both bold and stupid, risk of the highest stakes. If all the alliance has so far as kind words of "this won't divide us we stand together", we still don't know if Sylvanas will suceded on the long run. All the horde has to do is weather the storm until the Alliance starts to crack, and both Sylvanas and Saurfang see this as likely. So the question remains if they know of human nature enough for this to actually work, or the alliance's innate goodness is better than that.

    We cannot know yet, so I don't believe we can say Sylvanas failed, for now.

    Maybe she will, but I do feel that as an audience, we have to remain with the doubt of it for a bit while longer.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Bjoramier of Lordaeron View Post
    "Sylvanas Windrunner had committed genocide."

    How will sylvanas fanboys dig their way out of this one?
    Well to be honest i exterminate several galaxies a week playing Stellaris as a slave driver who genetically modifies everyone he conqueres into cattle and proles before butchering them as food in the end.

    I might understand that that, as well as Nelv genocide are bad things as a person, but enjoy the story and fully support it as a Horde character no matter who the warchief, because the whole point of digital gaming is to put you into delusional world to experience unusual things.

    Iirc there is even a study that shows that ppl on the internet and in games tend to take roles that are as far from their real life as possible. Unintelligent people try to show themself philosophical and witty, spamming their pages with "cool" quotes and stuff, insecure people try to be alphas, etc.

  6. #126
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post

    ....

    @Shandalay

    Yeah, I think just on a pure writing level, the Horde one is much better in its portrayal of both how fierce and brutal the night elf resistance is and how the Horde maneuver to this point. The way Saurfang is both Sylvanas' equal in planning and yet is essentially being gaslit into indulging in impulses he knows on some level are wrong are great and I think it makes both of them much more entertaining characters to read about. Saurfang reacting to the Burning was pretty harrowing stuff.
    I felt a little like I did when I read Rise of the Horde. You read a story of which you know how it will end and every decision, every encounter and feeling you just want to keep saying 'No, it's wrong, don't do it! Stop!' but the story unfolds so naturally and for the characters within the story so logical, that you just know it was all inevitable, because the mastermind behind it was too convincing and the people in the story are .. well, what they are. Not gods, not all knowing, most of them not even wise and some of them not even smart, but all of that is being exploited and sometimes just fuels the reactions from others, so it just had to play out as it did.

    Really, I just hope Blizzard have something really big and world-shaking in store as Sylvanas's ultimate plan, because for everything else this was just too... ingenious.^^

  7. #127
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjoramier of Lordaeron View Post
    That's nice and all but the Horde is not supposed to be an evil faction. If WoW and it's lore was created in 2018 and it was meant to be evil, i wouldn't care.

    But to anyone who knows anything about the lore, would know the Horde being blatantly evil and following sylvanas' orders blindly and helping her commit genocide wouldn't happen. Saurfang should have challenged her to Mak'gora by now, i have no idea how they can fix this without more character assassination and bad writing.

    if i had to guess, she will most likely be redeemed in a patch with a cringey as hell redemption plot, mainly because killing her would lose fanboys.
    To be fair, genocide of elves isn't "evil" by itself.

  8. #128
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    It is the same Alliance in the sense that it's the same organization / political entity. I've never disagreed with that. What I meant was that the current Alliance doesn't carry the same behavior as the Alliance of Lordaeron (quoting myself in the post you quoted, "I'd say that there isn't any reason to trust that current Alliance would behave the same way as the Alliance of Lordaeron if one think carefully about it"). If you actually read the collection of quotes of Aquamonkey (instead of just quickly look up because of something like "hey, it's said they are the same here"), you'd have realized that all of those were referring to the Alliance as the organization and had nothing to do with what I said. Those weren't talking about the behaviors at all, but the identity of the Alliance instead.

    That's why I brought up the example about Thrall's Horde and Sylvanas' Horde - both of them are the Horde, with the same leaders even. However, they don't act the same, nor do they have the same core values, so behavior-wise, one can't expect Sylvanas' Horde to do the same thing as Thrall's - which clearly, they don't.
    well sure back then ever member of the alliance were humans. its only logical for the behavior to change on some parts now that different races joined. the important thing though is that the alliance never disbanded. they still carry the symbol of lordaeron in various locations. they still (humans and dwarves, mostly obviously) honor the fallen (or not) heroes of lordaeron, because its the birthplace, it was there where the idea of the alliance took place and form.
    even if the behavior changed in some way, its not a drastic change. and look at this : right now we have stormwind, gilneas (with no land but theyre taking it back), kul tiras is coming back, stromgarde is rebuilt and dannath trollbane is sent there, dalaran is still around, neutral sure, but way more friendly to the alliance, for obvious reasons. the only kingdoms that missing are : alterac because they were bloody traitors and of course lordaeron. I cant guess what they are going to do with it though.

    it seems blizzard want to reunite the human kingdoms like they were in wc2. and they are closer than ever to accomplish it. its amazing.

  9. #129
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjoramier of Lordaeron View Post
    yes you are right and they should do it to all elves. /s
    *eyes glow red*

    Yes....

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaikal21 View Post
    well sure back then ever member of the alliance were humans. its only logical for the behavior to change on some parts now that different races joined. the important thing though is that the alliance never disbanded. they still carry the symbol of lordaeron in various locations. they still (humans and dwarves, mostly obviously) honor the fallen (or not) heroes of lordaeron, because its the birthplace, it was there where the idea of the alliance took place and form.
    even if the behavior changed in some way, its not a drastic change. and look at this : right now we have stormwind, gilneas (with no land but theyre taking it back), kul tiras is coming back, stromgarde is rebuilt and dannath trollbane is sent there, dalaran is still around, neutral sure, but way more friendly to the alliance, for obvious reasons. the only kingdoms that missing are : alterac because they were bloody traitors and of course lordaeron. I cant guess what they are going to do with it though.

    it seems blizzard want to reunite the human kingdoms like they were in wc2. and they are closer than ever to accomplish it. its amazing.
    Indeed, I don't disagree with that. My point was just that when Sylvanas decided upon her plan, there weren't that many indication that the Alliance would fracture as she expected. The breaking off of some former members of Alliance of Lordaeron (since someone else brought it up, I'm a bit lazy to go back on previous page to check) shouldn't be a good reason to believe that the current Alliance would act the same, as the leaders have changed and new leaders of the Alliance don't necessarily have the same personalities as the previous groups.
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang
    Donnons le sang de guillotine
    Pour guerir la secheresse de la guillotine
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Bjoramier of Lordaeron View Post
    Saurfang should have challenged her to Mak'gora by now
    I mean, it is answered in the book

    He wanted to kill her. He wanted to declare mak’gora and spill her blood in front of Horde and Alliance alike.

    But she was right.

    A wound that can never heal. That had always been the plan. And Saurfang had failed to inflict it.

    The story of Malfurion’s miraculous survival would have spread among the armies of the Alliance as proof that they were blessed in their cause.

    War would still have come. That had been certain the moment Saurfang had led the Horde into Ashenvale. And it would have been what he had feared most: the meat grinder, spending so many lives

    to achieve so little, ending with a whimper, and thus dooming future generations to a war nobody could win. Once again, Sylvanas had seen it before he had..
    The whole point is that while Saurfang as a honorable warrior despises and condemns her from the bottom of his heart, Saurfang as emotionless veteran and cold strategist understood that that was the only thing left to do, since Alliance will retaliate anyway and Horde will be pushed back from Teldrassil, that the original plan of holding civilians hostage to sow discord between Alliance races wouldn't work since Malf is alive, saved by none other than Elune herself, painting Horde as enemy of the goddess herself.

    The original Thrall horde was not evil. Maybe it shouldn't have been so eager to accept races like Forsaken, Blood Elves, Goblins, Nightborne and Zandalari, who are egoists that view the horde as a tool to be exploited at best, or are outright nihilistic sadists / master race supremacists at worst.

    Also i'm not really Sylvanas fan, I'd love Nathanos more as a leader of Forsaken, and Lor'themar as leader of the Horde.
    Last edited by Sinistrem; 2018-08-07 at 12:28 AM.

  12. #132
    Bloodsail Admiral Sharby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinistrem View Post
    But that's actually amazing, big props to blizz showing that rift between two halves of the Horde, cause that's Exactly how the races in the Horde must be feeling right now!

    • The Horde started out as Orcs, Trolls and Taurens being honorable savages who want to live peacefully and left alone.
    • But then they invited Forsaken, whose goal in vanilla was to create a blight to wipe out all life, including Horde, and Sylvanas hoping to manipulate Horde to help her.
    • Then came Blood Elves, radical revanchist faction that viewed Horde as a tool and frontline cannon fodder.
    • Then Goblins who literally have no morals whatsoever and would gladly do anything to save their skin.
    • Now we have Nightborne who went from openly saying they are going to rule the world to keeping it to themselves and Zandalari who literally proclaim to be Master race.

    I count Highmountain as Tauren, and don't view Pandas as actual race since they are willing immigrants if anything.

    Those races are from two camps, one that wants to peacefully coexsist and one that wants to gain more power at any cost. We also have Druid players who wouldn't accept Teldrassil burning no matter what and Death Knights throwing parties among Night elven corpses, praising Lich Queen.

    We have Baine who probably sleeps with Anduin dakimakura, and we have Talanji, who thinks Zandalari were too passive and should really amp up the effort to claim their rightful place at the top.

    And they probably want to explore this rift, to find out "what is the heart of the Horde?"

    Both Sylvanas and Saurfang are specifically made extremly polarising to be loved by one part of the Horde and be called idiots by another part of the Horde.
    See that's cool and all and if WoW wasn't an MMO it'd make for a compelling story for sure.

    However WoW IS an MMO which means that the player character can only go down ONE route, which basically means half of the Horde has to just suck it up and follow a story they hate which isn't very good imo. If they wanted to split the Horde like this then they should've been willing to put in extra effort to allow the PC to choose who to follow, but that would be very time-consuming and costly which is a whole other issue in itself.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharby View Post
    See that's cool and all and if WoW wasn't an MMO it'd make for a compelling story for sure.

    However WoW IS an MMO which means that the player character can only go down ONE route, which basically means half of the Horde has to just suck it up and follow a story they hate which isn't very good imo. If they wanted to split the Horde like this then they should've been willing to put in extra effort to allow the PC to choose who to follow, but that would be very time-consuming and costly which is a whole other issue in itself.
    Well i'm pretty sure that by the end of BfA both parts of the Horde will realise that both Sylvanas and Saurfang ideals don't fit the Horde as a whole, and probably create a new ideal to rally under that encompasses all races in the Horde. My money will be on Sylvanas stepping down back to leader of forsaken, absolving Warchief as supreme Horde ruler and turning Horde into Oligarchy ruled by the council of racial leaders.

  14. #134
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    Indeed, I don't disagree with that. My point was just that when Sylvanas decided upon her plan, there weren't that many indication that the Alliance would fracture as she expected. The breaking off of some former members of Alliance of Lordaeron (since someone else brought it up, I'm a bit lazy to go back on previous page to check) shouldn't be a good reason to believe that the current Alliance would act the same, as the leaders have changed and new leaders of the Alliance don't necessarily have the same personalities as the previous groups.
    I think maybe Sylvanas is actually at least partly acting on her past knowledge of the former Alliance of Lordaeron. She thinks and acts in patterns that she applied to people a long time ago and has not bothered to review since then. In Before the Storm I was a little surprised by her assessment of the orcs, which sounded much like something Daelin Proudmoore would think, only that she liked it, because it fit her plans.
    And she was right enough with the orcs that her reasoning convinced him, because at some level he wanted it to be true. But I think it's still going to bite her in the ass, because she's also not completely right.
    Although she knows he's going to be her enemy when he loses his honor or the Horde and she promptly made him lose his honor and next week throws him out of the Horde... so.. maybe she wanted to provoke him to that point?

  15. #135
    i read the horde one. wow, was a lot better than i expected. i even liked it. blizzard even recognized how some hordes could receive the saurfang's behavoiur with nathanos.
    but now, if blizzard would want really (which i dont think after that short) go with the "sylvanas evil path", exactly how could expect that i, as a forsaken player, could even think to betray my people, nathans and sylvanas?

  16. #136
    Slyvanus' thought process seems retarded as hell. Any one of her fanboys want to explain? Why would a 100 years of peace suddenly turn into a war with both sides annihilated? After experiencing 100 years of peace, what could cause such a massive war? Her paranioa is fucking insane!

    1.100 years of peace
    2.????
    3. Both sides end up completely annihilated.

    Seems legit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjoramier of Lordaeron View Post
    "Sylvanas Windrunner had committed genocide."

    How will sylvanas fanboys dig their way out of this one?
    Headcanon and extreme mental gymnastics
    "Father, is it over? I see only darkness before me."

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripzzz View Post
    Slyvanus thought process seems retarded as hell. Why would a 100 years of peace suddenly turn into a war with both sides annihilated? After experiencing 100 years of peace, what could cause such a massive war? Her paranioa is fucking insane!

    1.100 years of peace
    2.????
    3. Both sides end up completely annihilated.

    Seems legit.
    because there wouldnt be 100 years of peace, she ask it sarcastically to varok....

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    because there wouldnt be 100 years of peace, she ask it sarcastically to varok....
    Nope. She said 100 years of peace means nothing if it ends in a war with both sides annihilated. To which i ask how the fuck would 100 years of peace end in such a war? That's such a retarded assumption to make.
    "Father, is it over? I see only darkness before me."

  19. #139
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    My first question is, how in the blazes do Alliance spies in Orgrimmar work? The only race that could possibly pass for a Hordie is a Void Elf, and not only are there very few of them, but they are recognizable unless they use full body concealment. I know that in game rogues can just vanish in plain sight, but I'd expect stealth to be less effective in lore.
    They sell it just how they sold night elves being out rogued in their own forest by blood elves and forsaken.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripzzz View Post
    Nope. She said 100 years of peace means nothing if it ends in a war with both sides annihilated. To which i ask how the fuck would 100 years of peace end in such a war? That's such a retarded assumption to make.
    yep. she make all her speech in a sarcastic way and then she use that hyperbole. you know, the figure of speech you always use

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