A look at the sexism, corruption, and misogyny at Riot Games

[Edge-]

Attention and victim status.

Which gets them...?

Just for the record, I believe Kotaku's reporting on this based on all of the testimony and evidence, so I'm not discrediting that, but I see how people could doubt this so much specifically because it's Kotaku.

There's too much to discuss in this bit that's a bit too off-topic for the thread, but the long and short of it is that yes, Kotaku pushes a lot of agendas. Yes their coverage is often cringey and can be pretty bad. But if you're basing all your knowledge of them off a handful of pieces you don't like, and ignoring what is actually a pretty long history of their of credible reporting on super early leaks, internal drama at studios, and all kinds of other "actual journalism" shit that requires them to beat the street and talk with developers rather than just vomit out news based off of PR materials, then you're essentially looking at a painting through the microscope and complaining that it's all just a single color splotch.

[Video Games]

Attention and victim status.

Just for the record, I believe Kotaku's reporting on this based on all of the testimony and evidence, so I'm not discrediting that, but I see how people could doubt this so much specifically because it's Kotaku.

I mean the gamergate subreddit isn't called KotakuInAction randomly. Kotaku is toxic as fuck when it comes to reporting a lot.

i don't like kotaku either, but people are ignoring all the other links in the op like the zucchini muffins they are.

[Edge-]

lambashing Riot for not being ideologically pure enough to have implemented a diversity page on their website.

Except they didn't do that. The article opened highlighting how the creation of said page seemed like it was absolutely a reaction to Riot learning of Kotaku's inquiries and that they were working on this story. Which would lead a reasonable person to believe that it was Riot trying to cover their asses and make a good public show to try to head off what they feared was going to be a damaging story about a sensitive topic.

[Deleted]

So because you don't like the "tone" of the article you're dismissive of it?



It is facts, at least facts as they were told to Kotaku, presented through the lens of their editor. They're not a hard-news, neutral tone outlet. They never have been, and it's one of the reasons that they've ended up pissing a lot of people off or turning them off (also whey they have such a large audience that reads and likes them, conversely). I'm not a fan generally, but it's also not something that's going to make me instantly dismissive of what they write in an article like this.

Not at all, you misunderstand. I am dismissive because it seems like this article veils how little it has to say behind its length. And I get that kotaku can only report on what they've uncovered/know/learnt, but that doesn't mean I have to trust them or their uncited sources. Especially when my instinct when reading this, that the issues laid out in the article, some of which I admit are incredibly wrong if they are true are issues with individuals and not the company at large (because we have no evidence of that).

But how? What do they gain from this? How are they profiting? If they're current employees, what do they actually get from backing up aspects of an article highly critical of their employers workplace behavior/culture? What does a former employee who works in another industry or for a studio working in other genres not in competition with Riot (lol, few are in competition with Riot at their scale) actually get by backing up aspects or sharing their own stories of similar incidents?

Virtue signalling. And I get what you mean, by not delving into politics. I'm not, they are with their twitter profiles so I will digress from that. But, what they gain is overall notoriety, networking especially among their peers. Riding the high tide of victimhood or their apparent righteousness. If nothing else, a really cool story around the water cooler to gain respect. There is a lot to gain at kicking someone else. In the end, a lot of these things can be translated into green.

How do people with no affiliation with Kotaku benefit from Kotaku getting traffic? What blog are you even talking about?

The guy whose twitter profile I quoted there is working for a competitor, another f2p multiplayer pick up and play game.

How can he profit by attacking another game company, I wonder...

Except they didn't do that. The article opened highlighting how the creation of said page seemed like it was absolutely a reaction to Riot learning of Kotaku's inquiries and that they were working on this story. Which would lead a reasonable person to believe that it was Riot trying to cover their asses and make a good public show to try to head off what they feared was going to be a damaging story about a sensitive topic.

That might be true, but interestingly my reaction was "why is a diversity page necessary. maybe it simply isn't a priority in a VIDEOGAME", or is that page meant to be legally binding somehow and it was actually company wide policy being drawn up? I don't actually see the problem with Riot going "o shit, the puritans are going to slander us, let's cover our necks"

[Video Games]

Except they didn't do that. The article opened highlighting how the creation of said page seemed like it was absolutely a reaction to Riot learning of Kotaku's inquiries and that they were working on this story. Which would lead a reasonable person to believe that it was Riot trying to cover their asses and make a good public show to try to head off what they feared was going to be a damaging story about a sensitive topic.

yupppppppppppppppppppppppp. *eats almond choco loco yogurt*

[Video Games]

I agree completely. All of it taken as a whole picture, I believe it, but if it was only Kotaku I might not.

I still might because the harassment of women upsets me.

[Gungnir]

Now I'm not blaming anything on anybody.. but male or female alike, if you get hit on or inappropriately harrassed at work then just tell them to fuck off?
I'll take trying to find another job over having to deal with bullshit, because you can easily survive off of noodles.

[Gungnir]

Going to HR or threatening to sue is probably the better solution.

Yeah that also works, granted that you have a way of proving it incase you're aiming to sue. Word vs word regarding corporations tend to go poorly.

[Edge-]

Virtue signalling.

Yes, that's a buzzword. But you said they're profiting/benefiting and now 3 responses later you still haven't said how they're actually profiting or benefitting.

But, what they gain is overall notoriety, networking especially among their peers.

That's complete and utter poppycock. Total balderdash. This is not how networking is done. This is not how you "gain notoriety" to further your career. Knowing a number of people who have spoken about about these issues at other developers, there was no direct career benefit to them other than personal satisfaction and the hopes that by adding their voice that their workplace, or former workplace, would improve so that employees had better working conditions etc.

Riding the high tide of victimhood or their apparent righteousness. If nothing else, a really cool story around the water cooler to gain respect.

Jesus fucking christ, are you serious? You think these people sit around water coolers bragging about how they were sexually harassed at a former job? Have you ever worked in a professional environment?

"riding high on the tide of victimhood" is a meaningless statement. Outside of throwing around "victim" as a pejorative, it says literally nothing.

There is a lot to gain at kicking someone else. In the end, a lot of these things can be translated into green.

A lot like what? How does that translate into "green"?

The guy whose twitter profile I quoted there is working for a competitor, another f2p multiplayer pick up and play game.

Michael Maurino? You mean a dude working on a 2D arena brawler (which is like, not what League is at all) at an indie company with probably about 1% of the staff and budget of Riot (if they're lucky)? That's not a direct competitor in the same way that Apple doesn't view Cincinnati Bell as a direct competitor - because the differences in terms of their market size, awareness, value etc. is so monumentally different than nothing Cincinnati Bell ever does will impact Apple in the slightest.

How can he profit by attacking another game company, I wonder...

https://steamcharts.com/app/684200

Welp, so far it hasn't translated into any spikes in players, in large part because as I mentioned small games like this are irrelevant to Riot, so I'm not sure how this helps his game...

[Video Games]

Now I'm not blaming anything on anybody.. but male or female alike, if you get hit on or inappropriately harrassed at work then just tell them to fuck off?
I'll take trying to find another job over having to deal with bullshit, because you can easily survive off of noodles.

Because it's extremely hard if they have any sort of power over you.

[Gungnir]

But it's extremely hard if they have any sort of power over you.

Nah it really isn't.
What power do they have over you? An employment?
Do you value what meagre money you get over mental wellbeing?

They have no power over anyone other than the fact that you're employed. That's it.

[Edge-]

Attention and victim status.

Which gets them?... Are those things an end in themselves? What do they personally gain outside of say, a warm fuzzy feeling inside that they felt they spoke out against harassment at their current/former place of employment? Is that a bad thing that people should feel good talking about harassment in the hopes that lending their voice to others will help spur change?

I think at a certain point an organizations credibility is called into question as a whole. Like for instance Sheppard Smith from Fox News seems like a fairly honest and reasonable guy.... But I still wouldn't trust Fox News as far as I could throw them.

As I referenced earlier, and provided examples of, to my knowledge not a single investigative piece like this from Kotaku has ever been retracted, and they've published quite a few of them over the years. Not all have led to hard confirmation from the target of their investigations, or action from those that acknowledged their reporting, but thankfully some have and that's bloody great.

Going to HR or threatening to sue is probably the better solution.

HR isn't there to protect you, the employee. HR is there to protect Riot, the business. The reason there are so many stories of employees not going to HR is due to the volume of stories of people going to HR and either getting the runaround or losing their jobs as a result.

Nah it really isn't.
What power do they have over you? An employment?
Do you value what meagre money you get over mental wellbeing?

They have no power over anyone other than the fact that you're employed. That's it.

Riot pays very well, it's not "meager" money, even if living in California is expensive (and it is). You also don't want to burn bridges, and flagging harassment internally can absolutely burn bridges, especially with higher ups in a company, that can absolutely harm your career moving forward. It's one of the reasons that people who want to stay in an industry stay quiet about it. Because they view the pain of "toughing it out" in the hopes that it gets better or until they find another job less risky than potentially losing their career over it. Also, outside of the harassment, a lot of these people like their jobs and don't want to leave. You can like your job, most of your coworkers, and still be miserable because of a culture that leads to harassment from management and select others, even if they don't make up the majority of your coworkers or the behavior is only a small part of each day.

[Video Games]

Nah it really isn't.
What power do they have over you? An employment?
Do you value what meagre money you get over mental wellbeing?

They have no power over anyone other than the fact that you're employed. That's it.

Sorry but it is. If you're living pay check to pay check and it's your boss, do you understand what it's like to have to choose between food and dignity?

[Deleted]

Welp, so far it hasn't translated into any spikes in players, in large part because as I mentioned small games like this are irrelevant to Riot, so I'm not sure how this helps his game...

I gave you an example, when you asked for one and I have given you my rationale in my previous post, in how broadcasting your attachment to this article can make you money.

And yeah, when I can see alternative or better actions than those that have been displayed in this article and by extension, the people coming out in support of it, I will distrust their motives. I'd have expected some evidence rather than hearsay, if there are this many people involved, maybe even some sort of inspection from whatever department in the US handle company personnel treatment.

(edited down the entire discussion chain, because I am digressing since we're not going anywhere and to avoid spam)

[Dragon Claws]

Why is this thread a thing? I miss when it was 2006 and people could crack jokes and say stuff and no one really get offended. Social media was a mistake.

[Torrasque]

These links aren't very legit... Most are random posters acting like trolls... hardly noteworthy for being so form of conspiracy-level "uprising."

[Edge-]

I gave you an example, when you asked for one and I have given you my rationale in my previous post, in how broadcasting your attachment to this article can make you money.

Except it's flawed and not remotely based in reality. That's your opinion, that's fine. But it's based off incorrect/faulty information.

And yeah, when I can see alternative or better actions than those that have been displayed in this article and by extension, the people coming out in support of it, I will distrust their motives. I'd have expected some evidence rather than hearsay, if there are this many people involved, maybe even some sort of inspection from whatever department in the US handle company personnel treatment.

...really? This is literally how companies work, internal cultures can often be toxic (or great!) and remain that way without getting out into the public for ages. And unless someone brings it up with the NLRB - which is uncommon due to the risks it puts the employee in and the fact that many don't want to bring that kind of scrutiny/harm to their employer despite their issues, why would the government get involved? They don't audit companies for how they treat employees.

I've already dealt with the reasons why many would stay there or remain silent when there are "alternative or better actions", whatever those may be, in a post above, I'll repaste -

Riot pays very well, it's not "meager" money, even if living in California is expensive (and it is). You also don't want to burn bridges, and flagging harassment internally can absolutely burn bridges, especially with higher ups in a company, that can absolutely harm your career moving forward. It's one of the reasons that people who want to stay in an industry stay quiet about it. Because they view the pain of "toughing it out" in the hopes that it gets better or until they find another job less risky than potentially losing their career over it. Also, outside of the harassment, a lot of these people like their jobs and don't want to leave. You can like your job, most of your coworkers, and still be miserable because of a culture that leads to harassment from management and select others, even if they don't make up the majority of your coworkers or the behavior is only a small part of each day.

Why is this thread a thing? I miss when it was 2006 and people could crack jokes and say stuff and no one really get offended. Social media was a mistake.

I'm not. I'd rather we continue to make progress in the workplace rather than revert to a time where physical sexual assault of female employees was considered a perfectly acceptable part of the workplace.

[Gungnir]

Riot pays very well, it's not "meager" money, even if living in California is expensive (and it is). You also don't want to burn bridges, and flagging harassment internally can absolutely burn bridges, especially with higher ups in a company, that can absolutely harm your career moving forward. It's one of the reasons that people who want to stay in an industry stay quiet about it. Because they view the pain of "toughing it out" in the hopes that it gets better or until they find another job less risky than potentially losing their career over it. Also, outside of the harassment, a lot of these people like their jobs and don't want to leave. You can like your job, most of your coworkers, and still be miserable because of a culture that leads to harassment from management and select others, even if they don't make up the majority of your coworkers or the behavior is only a small part of each day.

I am the person advocating to tell them to fuck off, not flag them for harrassment. Just tell them that the position was not what you were looking for or you have some other form of circumstance that makes you have to leave your position.
Also, there are more developers in the game industry than just Riot. You can find a new job with a different developer rather than having to get harrassed.

Sorry but it is. If you're living pay check to pay check and it's your boss, do you understand what it's like to have to choose between food and dignity?

No, it really isn't. I still live from paycheck to paycheck, filling out my weeks with mostly cup noodles and whatnot.
I've also been physically harrassed at a previous job, which is exactly why I am advocating the move to just tell them to fuck off and see if you can find a new job.
Why?
Because it isn't fucking worth the stress or anxiety of being in that situation.

They only have as much power as you're willing to give them, since you have the option to just walk out of the company.

[Edge-]

I am the person advocating to tell them to fuck off, not flag them for harrassment. Just tell them that the position was not what you were looking for or you have some other form of circumstance that makes you have to leave your position.

Again - many of these employees like these jobs outside of, you know, the harassment. And these are dream jobs that pay well for them.

Also, there are more developers in the game industry than just Riot. You can find a new job with a different developer rather than having to get harrassed.

Sure, if you want to work at another developer. If you can potentially pick up and move across the state/country or to another country. If you're alright with going to another developer where there's potentially far less job security and you can lose your job if a game doesn't have a strong enough launch.

Not dismissing moving jobs as a viable option, but it's fucked up that that's a "solution" to a company that has a toxic culture that promotes harassment and sexism. You know, rather than wondering why the company doesn't deal with their toxic culture so that employees don't have to deal with harassment and sexism and can just do their damn jobs in peace.

[Deleted]

...really? This is literally how companies work, internal cultures can often be toxic (or great!) and remain that way without getting out into the public for ages. And unless someone brings it up with the NLRB - which is uncommon due to the risks it puts the employee in and the fact that many don't want to bring that kind of scrutiny/harm to their employer despite their issues, why would the government get involved? They don't audit companies for how they treat employees.

I've already dealt with the reasons why many would stay there or remain silent when there are "alternative or better actions", whatever those may be, in a post above, I'll repaste -

I get what you mean and yeah, it may be harmful to your career, in which case I sorta lose interest, your harassment, to me from an outsiders perspective can not be that unbearable. It's like, if you're going to go public eventually (in this article), why not do it through proper channels wherein there can be actual consequences for workplace injustice rather than participate in an article, from a dubious source (at best), with absolutely no guarantees that something will come of it.

I can't imagine, if Riot is as corrupt as they apparently are, that these people will be held in high regard by the management anyway, so they just tipped their entire hand basically for naught imho.

Maybe they do intend to make a workplace harassment suit against Riot, in which case ALL the power to them, but until they do it's just whine and moan, which I personally identify as driven by monetary agenda.