Nerf Feral Haste!

[Tradu]

Not the review? My bad, I assumed you specifically were the one I had the conversation with (Guiltyas), and not someone else included. Saying that, it is good to see this is progressing further than what we had in discord being that there's recognition of talents being slight modifiers instead of spec defining, severe playstyle altering, despite our personal opinions of the playstyle. Very much agree that someone without the concentration required for BT will do better on another talent due to the punishment of non optimal play.

While I really do appreciate the change in tone while keeping your opinion, I have to disagree that to enjoy Feral, one must accept and use BT. It has been very much a part of the spec for years, and through recent expansions, moved back towards talents. As a talent, it's simply unhealthy to the spec for developers to try and tune around such a spec defining mechanic. To have both a DD and Bleed build contending for player preference is not good for the spec (regardless of pre/post 7.3), when the spec as a whole is tuned against all other classes, only to have a percentage of players isolated because a preferable playstyle is not tuned sufficiently.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if BT were somehow made less cumbersome in an enjoyable design than what it is now (and has been for years), and moved to baseline, essentially freeing up the spec from tuning issues. We have subspec playstyles that (through fault of design) simply should not be as big a tuning issue as it is. DD can be seen as to simplified (and I agree), while Bleed can be considered as cumbersome (of which I also agree). We need a baseline middle ground where the differential of gameplay through talents is much, much less than what it is now.

Edit: Apologies in the moving away from the original conversation of Haste, but the whole BT thing was a continuation of a conversation that had not progressed constructively because of the format.

I still completely disagree that there's anything cumbersome about it. Your finishers give a proc, you spend that proc at the right time(which is very easy, as Feral is a fairly slow spec, so it's mostly quite forgiving in terms of timing) in order to empower your strongest abilities(which can be somewhat situational).
Agreed otherwise for the most part, though. Feral(and all specs, really) need to be taken back to their "roots"(which they claimed they did in Legion, but really that was almost entirely contained to lore, not gameplay) and be given a good baseline kit that is in line with what the spec has traditionally been about. Talents like Predator are examples of the kind of thing I'd like to see more of(specifically the reset, the increased duration doesn't need to exist). It has a specific use case, but doesn't hugely alter the core gameplay of the spec.
That said, people who want a direct damage spec already have plenty of options, Feral does not need to support that. Talents like SbT(and Absolute Corruption for Affliction) have no place in a DoT spec.
And I'm Tradu on Discord as well(although recently I've changed my nick a few times, the actual account name has always been Tradu).

- - - Updated - - -

I think the original argument against allowing haste to affect bleeds was the caster vs melee debate, since they believed haste already increased OoC procs via auto-attacks with already increased energy gains... and that it'd be overkill for bleeds to do the same thing (rogue had a similar argument). However, as with many things, Blizz changed their minds either because casters can 'double-dip' benefits from haste nowadays so why not everyone, or Blizz just straight-up forgot a 'lessons learned' moment. Regardless, I think they were concerned haste would be too powerful of a secondary stat, as well, but there's almost always a super-preferred stat... just as long as the spec plays fine regardless of stat allocation. Certainly better than haste in Legion, especially before the direct damage change.

Be that as it may, the main reason I never really liked BT as a talent is that it forces us to use a healing/utility proc for other than its intended purpose (it can do both at the same time, but it still limits your flexibility when aiming to maximize damage). Sure, I can play it optimally with ease, doesn't mean I necessarily like the concept. I preferred the Nature's Vigil route, where the spell itself was intended to be used as both damage and healing.

Yeah, initially it was some silly reason where they wanted to differentiate between bleed(pseudo-physical damage) and magical DoTs. Melees got hasted rotational CDs instead, in a lot of cases, but then they extended that to casters(because it's a very nice mechanic). During Legion, hasted bleeds were(as far as I'm aware) just vetoed by Celestalon, so when he stepped down it was just a matter of time, really.

[The Stormbringer]

If you guys don't want your haste, can Destro Locks take it? Asking for a friend.

[Whitepaw]

And again, if somebody doesn't like BT, that's an admission that they don't like Feral, seeing as its been effectively baseline for the majority of the spec's existence as a real spec.

It's replies like this one that bothers me, Tradu. Because it's plain wrong.

The functionality behind what is now Bloodtalons started in Mists of Pandaria, whereas Feral became a viable dps spec with patch 1.8 in Vanilla. So, Feral existed as a viable dps spec for 7 years before we had a talent with functionality like Bloodtalons.

Notice I wrote "viable dps spec". We didn't become a competitive melee dps spec in raids until WotLK.

Bloodtalons, with its current name and functionality, is a relatively new talent, as it was added in WoD.

The problem with Bloodtalons being too dominant is that it's terrible game design - and the reason for this is simple: It uses what started as a mechanic which made Ferals able to cast a spell while staying in cat form (the PS proc from using a finisher) - and combines that with a mechanic introduced in MoP as a level 90 talent called Dream of Cenarius, which was meant to encourage hybrid gameplay. This talent (in its MoP edition) gave the Feral a bonus to healing, when a damage ability had been used, and vice versa. So you had two different purposes - but combined as a talent, the sole focus has become to add the damage buff.

The changes made with Bloodtalons basically stripped Feral of the intended encouragement for Hybrid gameplay (we no longer gain healing by using a damage ability - and we no longer use the PS proc to heal/CC, but instead time the heal to do most damage with bleeds).

We started as Hybrids and remained so from Vanilla to Cataclysm (that's 8 years) - MoP and WoD basically changed us to the bleed dps spec we are now. We have not been like this "for the majority of the spec's existence as a real spec" - we have been designed to be like this, primarily during WoD and Legion (WoD added Bloodtalons - Legion nerfed our healing output to the lowest level ever seen in the game).

So, if we use a historical view on how Feral functions now as an argument of how the current design is justified, we should be Hybrids. And Bloodtalons should basically be kicked out the door. Because timing the usage of a healing spell to buff our bleeds is contrary to what Feral Druids have been about since Vanilla: A Hybrid, able to use healing spells when appropriate to save the day.

PS: Back in MoP, when Dream of Cenarius was first introduced as a lvl 90 talent, it only provided a 5% advantage in dps over Heart of the Wild. This advantage was so small that Stenhaldi (who raided in Midwinter on a US server as a Feral - and who, to my knowledge, was the last raider to compete for world firsts while playing solely as a Feral) used HotW extensively. He'd much rather have a talent that allowed him to go fully Hybrid for 45 sec than have a miniscule dps gain. For a description of Feral changes at the start of MoP, visit https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/top...phs-patch-504/.

[Kraineth]

The changes made with Bloodtalons basically stripped Feral of the intended encouragement for Hybrid gameplay (we no longer gain healing by using a damage ability - and we no longer use the PS proc to heal/CC, but instead time the heal to do most damage with bleeds).

We started as Hybrids and remained so from Vanilla to Cataclysm (that's 8 years) - MoP and WoD basically changed us to the bleed dps spec we are now. We have not been like this "for the majority of the spec's existence as a real spec" - we have been designed to be like this, primarily during WoD and Legion (WoD added Bloodtalons - Legion nerfed our healing output to the lowest level ever seen in the game).

Blood talons has existed in nearly the exact same form since the talent re-work for MoP, which is the first expansion where any real discussion on modern spec design for any spec in the game starts. Everything prior to that was a single cookie cutter talent tree with minor variations that amounted to taking reduced magic damage or being an off tank.

Since MoP "hybrid gameplay" has been discouraged more and more, that is just a fact, and it isn't unique to just Feral. If that wasn't immediately obvious when they split Feral Combat into two totally different specs, I don't know what to tell you dude.

Blood Talons is a core design of the spec, it and Tiger's Fury are designed from the ground up to be the last few remaining abilities that enable snapshotting style game play since they removed that functionality from stat procs, and most other DoT based specs in the game.

As far as Dream of Cenarius vs. Heart of the Wild back in MoP, I think you might be a bit misinformed about why Heart of the Wild was relevant. It was very much not a simple 5% dps loss as a trade off for being able to offheal or off tank for 45 seconds. It was used for two reasons:

1. HotW + Tranquility was a ridiculously strong healing CD, stronger than any healing that a Resto Druid could do with their own Tranquility.
2. Despite simming lower, HotW allowed for Ferals to abuse damage scaling from vengeance to do stupid amounts of damage.

Nobody was taking HotW to throw out heals for 45 seconds on a 6 minute CD.

Hybrid gameplay is dead and gone, has been for over 6 years. Blizzard isn't going to bring it back because it becomes a nightmare for class balance and fight design.

[Specialka]

What is the issue with BT? Harder talent on this line to use so it is normal that it yields better results when well used.

[Moonsorrow]

What is the issue with BT? Harder talent on this line to use so it is normal that it yields better results when well used.

If it were that simple there would be no problem. Atm BT is significantly better than the other two talents in the row. Therefore it is basically mandatory as is outperforms by a large margin. If it were as SR and LI where you could choose higher difficulty for better outcome but still perform with a certain percentage with the alternative talents there would be no complaint.

Made my peace with it and switched mains, especially with the horrible state Guardian is atm...

[Specialka]

Outperform by how much? Since it is quite harder to well use it compared to the 2 others I do not mind if it does far more dps than the 2 others options. As it should.

And since feral is harder to play well than most of the others specs, it should be top dps as well. Easyness should not be rewarded.

[RelaZ]

Outperform by how much? Since it is quite harder to well use it compared to the 2 others I do not mind if it does far more dps than the 2 others options. As it should.

And since feral is harder to play well than most of the others specs, it should be top dps as well. Easyness should not be rewarded.

This will never happen. Feral will never again be allowed to "do higher ST damage because it's harder to play than the rest of the specs/classes".

As long as BT stays as it is and is BiS Feral will be incredibly underplayed and the effort required to gain at least mediocre success will be sky high.

Nobody was taking HotW to throw out heals for 45 seconds on a 6 minute CD.

Yes, yes they did. That's actually exactly what they did. And in WoD they picked CoS. Why? Because BT was intentionally kept out of PvP because it is incredibly clunky and neuters utility completely.

Only in Legion (and now BfA) did they change this. Why? Because Blizzard has stopped caring about good game design, especially in PvP.

I still completely disagree that there's anything cumbersome about it. Your finishers give a proc, you spend that proc at the right time

Rofl. Everything about BT is cumbersome and clunky. Your entire utility is tied up into PS - and then suddenly you have to use PS in your DPS rotation.

"oh I see this clutch root opportunity" - jk, that would be too much of a DPS loss.
"oh the healers could really use some help with this heal right now" - jk, that would be too much of a DPS loss.

balancing multiple very distinct builds within 1 spec is what causes problems.

Very true. And since there's no way a spec catering only to 0.001% of the population is a good business, PR or design choice Bloodtalons is going to get re-designed soon. Deal with it.

You can't make a talent BiS that makes the spec complete trash for everyone below the 90th percentile in terms of throughput.

Oh and when I say the 90th percentile I mean PvE. In PvP no one likes it (the exception being Guiltyas, the Feral who only got "good" at PvP once everything except damage was removed from the spec... I wonder what that says about him).

That said, people who want a direct damage spec already have plenty of options, Feral does not need to support that.

Feral has supported that from 1.0 until 7.0. Don't act like BT has existed, or for that matter been the go-to BiS talent for all scenarios, for the majority of the games existence.

If anything the extreme Bleed spec that has existed (PvE only) since MoP doesn't need to be supported.

Calling BT toxic also means nothing, it's a useless buzzword. There's nothing wrong with casting a spell to gain a damage buff, tons of specs do it.

Just because you don't want to look at all the evidence of why it is toxic doesn't mean it isn't.

Also no, no other spec has that much damage tied up into a low duration proc that is also tied to utility as well as can't be reliably replaced in 30 seconds due to codependence on other things (TF). Don't be stupid.

BT is toxic. Only the 95th+ percentile of currently playing PvE Ferals like it. Everyone else despises it as it is a crutch to the spec.

[Tradu]

It's replies like this one that bothers me, Tradu. Because it's plain wrong.

The functionality behind what is now Bloodtalons started in Mists of Pandaria, whereas Feral became a viable dps spec with patch 1.8 in Vanilla. So, Feral existed as a viable dps spec for 7 years before we had a talent with functionality like Bloodtalons.

Notice I wrote "viable dps spec". We didn't become a competitive melee dps spec in raids until WotLK.

Bloodtalons, with its current name and functionality, is a relatively new talent, as it was added in WoD.

The problem with Bloodtalons being too dominant is that it's terrible game design - and the reason for this is simple: It uses what started as a mechanic which made Ferals able to cast a spell while staying in cat form (the PS proc from using a finisher) - and combines that with a mechanic introduced in MoP as a level 90 talent called Dream of Cenarius, which was meant to encourage hybrid gameplay. This talent (in its MoP edition) gave the Feral a bonus to healing, when a damage ability had been used, and vice versa. So you had two different purposes - but combined as a talent, the sole focus has become to add the damage buff.

The changes made with Bloodtalons basically stripped Feral of the intended encouragement for Hybrid gameplay (we no longer gain healing by using a damage ability - and we no longer use the PS proc to heal/CC, but instead time the heal to do most damage with bleeds).

We started as Hybrids and remained so from Vanilla to Cataclysm (that's 8 years) - MoP and WoD basically changed us to the bleed dps spec we are now. We have not been like this "for the majority of the spec's existence as a real spec" - we have been designed to be like this, primarily during WoD and Legion (WoD added Bloodtalons - Legion nerfed our healing output to the lowest level ever seen in the game).

So, if we use a historical view on how Feral functions now as an argument of how the current design is justified, we should be Hybrids. And Bloodtalons should basically be kicked out the door. Because timing the usage of a healing spell to buff our bleeds is contrary to what Feral Druids have been about since Vanilla: A Hybrid, able to use healing spells when appropriate to save the day.

PS: Back in MoP, when Dream of Cenarius was first introduced as a lvl 90 talent, it only provided a 5% advantage in dps over Heart of the Wild. This advantage was so small that Stenhaldi (who raided in Midwinter on a US server as a Feral - and who, to my knowledge, was the last raider to compete for world firsts while playing solely as a Feral) used HotW extensively. He'd much rather have a talent that allowed him to go fully Hybrid for 45 sec than have a miniscule dps gain. For a description of Feral changes at the start of MoP, visit https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/top...phs-patch-504/.

"Hybrid" gameplay is unbalanceable and it being phased out is a good thing, and no, Feral did not exist for 7 years as a viable DPS spec without BT. It existed for 2 expansions as a viable DPS spec(using your "viable DPS spec" timeline), then it got DoC, which was the same thing as BT is now. It's not at all terrible game design, especially when you have the option of not talenting into it. And even when Feral was a "hybrid" spec, the core of that hybridity was bleeds. Shifting into cat form while not actively tanking to put up bleeds, which kept ticking while tanking.
I also have no clue what your point regarding Stenhaldi is. If BT was a 5% DPS increase over the other options, not picking it was just straight up a mistake(in general). And if you do think a 5% loss is fine, then current BT is also absolutely fine using your own model. You know why HotW got used over DoC/BT? Because you could use it for AoE DPS. Because it situationally allowed you to tank or heal. Because it allowed you to abuse Vengeance.
Stenhaldi also wasn't the last Feral to compete for world firsts, not that I'm even sure I'd count Midwinter as a competitor for world first. The last and only semi-relevant world first they got was Iron Maidens in WoD. Yriss played in From Scratch(who were similarly relevant as Midwinter) during Legion until they disbanded. There's also still multiple Ferals in top guilds, including Robosaurus in Honestly.

- - - Updated - - -

This will never happen. Feral will never again be allowed to "do higher ST damage because it's harder to play than the rest of the specs/classes".

As long as BT stays as it is and is BiS Feral will be incredibly underplayed and the effort required to gain at least mediocre success will be sky high.

Yes, yes they did. That's actually exactly what they did. And in WoD they picked CoS. Why? Because BT was intentionally kept out of PvP because it is incredibly clunky and neuters utility completely.

Only in Legion (and now BfA) did they change this. Why? Because Blizzard has stopped caring about good game design, especially in PvP.

Rofl. Everything about BT is cumbersome and clunky. Your entire utility is tied up into PS - and then suddenly you have to use PS in your DPS rotation.

"oh I see this clutch root opportunity" - jk, that would be too much of a DPS loss.
"oh the healers could really use some help with this heal right now" - jk, that would be too much of a DPS loss.

Very true. And since there's no way a spec catering only to 0.001% of the population is a good business, PR or design choice Bloodtalons is going to get re-designed soon. Deal with it.

You can't make a talent BiS that makes the spec complete trash for everyone below the 90th percentile in terms of throughput.

Oh and when I say the 90th percentile I mean PvE. In PvP no one likes it (the exception being Guiltyas, the Feral who only got "good" at PvP once everything except damage was removed from the spec... I wonder what that says about him).

Feral has supported that from 1.0 until 7.0. Don't act like BT has existed, or for that matter been the go-to BiS talent for all scenarios, for the majority of the games existence.

If anything the extreme Bleed spec that has existed (PvE only) since MoP doesn't need to be supported.

Just because you don't want to look at all the evidence of why it is toxic doesn't mean it isn't.

Also no, no other spec has that much damage tied up into a low duration proc that is also tied to utility as well as can't be reliably replaced in 30 seconds due to codependence on other things (TF). Don't be stupid.

BT is toxic. Only the 95th+ percentile of currently playing PvE Ferals like it. Everyone else despises it as it is a crutch to the spec.

BT is not the reason the spec has a small playerbase(nor is size of a spec's playerbase relevant at all, as long as the people who enjoy it get to play it)
BT is not cumbersome, that decision to use it for clutch heals/roots is part of the skillcap of the talent(or part of a reason not to run it on a certain fight). PvP is an irrelevant part of the game that gets its very own talents and balancing, they could just change it in that environment.
If it's "trash" for everybody below 90th percentile, those people have 2 other talents to pick from if "press Regrowth at 5 CP" is too hard a concept for them. You're also ignoring that even during Antorus, the most braindead Feral has been in a long time(Legion prepatch probably got close), the top Ferals stayed top. They're not top because they're good at BT and everybody else is garbage at it, because if that was the case you'd see a ton of random clowns at the top now that the talent holding them back was no longer best.
MoP is when Blizzard started designing good specs, for most specs that lasted until WoD or Legion and then went down a cliff, while Feral got to stay good.
PS is a 12 second buff, which is plenty of time to get to the next finisher. It's also completely predictable, making it even easier. It also doesn't rely on TF, if anything it's the other way around, and can easily be planned around, seeing as TF has a fixed CD. And again, toxic is a useless buzzword that means nothing.
Oh, and did you notice how Blizzard did a mid-expansion rework of Feral's talents, but BT stayed? Wonder why that would be, could it be that Blizzard completely disagrees with you and "95% of Ferals"?

[Specialka]

Stuff should not be balanced for ppl bad at games.

[RelaZ]

BT is not cumbersome, that decision to use it for clutch heals/roots is part of the skillcap of the talent

There is no choice. It's time the heal for BT, always. The damage loss is too great to even consider anything else. There's no skillcap in that. Do you even play PvP?

BT is cumbersome. End of story.

PvP is an irrelevant part of the game that gets its very own talents and balancing, they could just change it in that environment.

Good joke. PvP is very relevant, and a large reason for the massive subscription loss in Legion and WoD. And no, they won't do such major changes of an ability because it'd make the difference between PvP and PvE too large. We've asked before.

Stuff should not be balanced for ppl bad at games.

You're not "bad" if you're in the 85+ percentile, or 99.9999th percentile of PvP for that matter.

MoP is when Blizzard started designing good specs, for most specs that lasted until WoD or Legion and then went down a cliff

Or you know it could just be that the Feral population is being out screamed and held hostage by 10 or so high tier PvErs (and the rest are leaving the spec in droves, giving the 10 players even more authority - ensuring the ship keeps sinking) and for some unexplainable reason Blizzard keeps listening to them.

Also it's nice of you to completely disregard WotLK Feral or Cata Feral as "badly designed". It's good to know just how bad your view of historic Feral design is.

Stenhaldi also wasn't the last Feral to compete for world firsts

It's fun how you're intentionally misinterpreting what he wrote. He wrote the last Feral only player. Afaik there are no Feral only players still trying for World Firsts, that ended in MoP - because Feral is completely botched ever since BT was implemented.

[Tradu]

There is no choice. It's time the heal for BT, always. The damage loss is too great to even consider anything else. There's no skillcap in that. Do you even play PvP?

BT is cumbersome. End of story.
Good joke. PvP is very relevant, and a large reason for the massive subscription loss in Legion and WoD. And no, they won't do such major changes of an ability because it'd make the difference between PvP and PvE too large. We've asked before.
You're not "bad" if you're in the 85+ percentile, or 99.9999th percentile of PvP for that matter.
Or you know it could just be that the Feral population is being out screamed and held hostage by 10 or so high tier PvErs (and the rest are leaving the spec in droves, giving the 10 players even more authority - ensuring the ship keeps sinking) and for some unexplainable reason Blizzard keeps listening to them.

Also it's nice of you to completely disregard WotLK Feral or Cata Feral as "badly designed". It's good to know just how bad your view of historic Feral design is.

It's fun how you're intentionally misinterpreting what he wrote. He wrote the last Feral only player. Afaik there are no Feral only players still trying for World Firsts, that ended in MoP - because Feral is completely botched ever since BT was implemented.

I didn't say Wrath or Cata Feral was poorly designed, they were both good specs. It just wasn't until MoP that Blizzard started making well designed specs in general, including Feral being improved.

I'm not misinterpreting what he wrote, the "only" is completely irrelevant because only playing 1 spec(or even 1 class) at that level is basically unacceptable unless it's one that's basically always strong(with boomkin being the only hybrid spec in that category), especially as melee. And in general, playing only 1 class and nothing else isn't some badge of honor, it's a detriment.
You're also completely ignoring class balance, which has a huge impact on which specs top guilds bring. You're also ignoring that there just aren't that many Feral players(for a variety of reasons), so just purely based on that there's going to be fewer of them in top guilds, and because of class balance(as well as because Feral plays quite differently to most specs) not a lot of the top players played them as alts either. And you're once again ignoring Yriss who played Feral in EN/ToV/NH with From Scratch, Exorsus was considering recruiting a Feral in early Legion(there just wasn't any good one available) and Fragnance prepared a Feral alt for ToS.
And yes, PvP is a joke. Go play a good PvP game instead of constantly crying to have classes/specs changed baseline just to cater to PvP. You have PvP-specific systems for that, ask Blizzard to address your PvP concerns with those. PvE doesn't have that option.

[RelaZ]

I didn't say Wrath or Cata Feral was poorly designed, they were both good specs. It just wasn't until MoP that Blizzard started making well designed specs in general, including Feral being improved.

I'm not misinterpreting what he wrote, the "only" is completely irrelevant because only playing 1 spec(or even 1 class) at that level is basically unacceptable unless it's one that's basically always strong(with boomkin being the only hybrid spec in that category), especially as melee. And in general, playing only 1 class and nothing else isn't some badge of honor, it's a detriment.

Yet there are a lot of people doing it. But only 1 example of a Feral doing it. And what's even more funny is almost no one has Feral as their "alt" class/spec. Feral is horribly designed and a lot of it is due to BT. Deal with it.

You're also completely ignoring class balance, which has a huge impact on which specs top guilds bring. You're also ignoring that there just aren't that many Feral players(for a variety of reasons), so just purely based on that there's going to be fewer of them in top guilds, and because of class balance(as well as because Feral plays quite differently to most specs) not a lot of the top players played them as alts either.

Rofl. What you're doing is admitting Feral is poorly designed compared to other classes when it's simply not possible to play it in a lot of content. Good arguments. "Class balance" lol, no what you mean is class design. It's not class "balance" if one class/spec is so well designed you can always count on it being relevant and another (Feral) is so badly designed that it's almost never relevant.

And you're once again ignoring Yriss who played Feral in EN/ToV/NH with From Scratch, Exorsus was considering recruiting a Feral in early Legion(there just wasn't any good one available) and Fragnance prepared a Feral alt for ToS.

Again, you're dodging. Yes, Fragnance may have prepared an alt but again he didn't prepare to play Feral only, and by your own admission there are some specs that are always strong due to class design - Feral isn't because it's not designed in a good way and part of that issue is BT, at the very least it's what solidifies it. And you have 1 example of a Feral who played only Feral for a portion of Legion. 1 example. That's pathetic. There are a lot of Rogues (etc) who are playing only Rogue, guess why? Because their role isn't locked down due to poor design, i.e. BT.

And yes, PvP is a joke. Go play a good PvP game instead of constantly crying to have classes/specs changed baseline just to cater to PvP. You have PvP-specific systems for that, ask Blizzard to address your PvP concerns with those. PvE doesn't have that option.

No PvP isn't a joke. No there isn't any other PvP game like WoW. It's funny how PvErs think they're in such a majority and how no one does PvP when it is so blatantly untrue. Well, it might be true in Legion and WoD after Blizzard drove all the PvPers away with loads of awful decisions. If we had sufficient systems to solve this issue PvP-only we would ask for that, but the ways that exist won't be utilised by Blizzard for the reason I mentioned before.

I've had it with you PvE heroes. You can't even spot bad game design when it's metaphorically ****ing you in the ass.

[Deleted]

im okay with it

[Tradu]

Yet there are a lot of people doing it. But only 1 example of a Feral doing it. And what's even more funny is almost no one has Feral as their "alt" class/spec. Feral is horribly designed and a lot of it is due to BT. Deal with it.
Rofl. What you're doing is admitting Feral is poorly designed compared to other classes when it's simply not possible to play it in a lot of content. Good arguments. "Class balance" lol, no what you mean is class design. It's not class "balance" if one class/spec is so well designed you can always count on it being relevant and another (Feral) is so badly designed that it's almost never relevant.

Again, you're dodging. Yes, Fragnance may have prepared an alt but again he didn't prepare to play Feral only, and by your own admission there are some specs that are always strong due to class design - Feral isn't because it's not designed in a good way and part of that issue is BT, at the very least it's what solidifies it. And you have 1 example of a Feral who played only Feral for a portion of Legion. 1 example. That's pathetic. There are a lot of Rogues (etc) who are playing only Rogue, guess why? Because their role isn't locked down due to poor design, i.e. BT.
No PvP isn't a joke. No there isn't any other PvP game like WoW. It's funny how PvErs think they're in such a majority and how no one does PvP when it is so blatantly untrue. Well, it might be true in Legion and WoD after Blizzard drove all the PvPers away with loads of awful decisions. If we had sufficient systems to solve this issue PvP-only we would ask for that, but the ways that exist won't be utilised by Blizzard for the reason I mentioned before.

I've had it with you PvE heroes. You can't even spot bad game design when it's metaphorically ****ing you in the ass.

Rogues have 3 specs dedicated to DPS, as well as being a class that has always been brought because it has extremely powerful survivability tools. That's not comparable at all to 1 spec out of 4 on a hybrid class. And yes, it is a case of class balance and utility(which randomly Regrowthing people is not relevant for). Remind me how many WWs get brought, especially historically? Oh, right. How about ret paladins? Shadow priests apart from StM(so when the spec is overpowered) or when Mass Dispel is needed?
And Feral playing differently than most other specs is not "poor design", it's great and more specs should be unique like that.
PvE is the main focus of the game, always has been, and until they stop producing content always will be.

[Rockford]

And Feral playing differently than most other specs is not "poor design", it's great and more specs should be unique like that.
PvE is the main focus of the game, always has been, and until they stop producing content always will be.

Different is fine, but when there's a mechanic that's seen as unenjoyable to manage, the ST output is based on it's tuning while alternatives aren't competitive, it becomes a problem.

Now using a finisher which gives us a limited time buff, to then use it on an instant cast utility (heal/root), which gives us yet another separate buff that increases the damage on the next 2 abilities, which needs to be our 2 ST bleeds while also snapshotting Tiger's Fury while maintaining Savage Roar. This is not only different, but completely ridiculous. Manageable, but largely seen as what it is....

A complete f'ing mess which is largely responsible for Feral's tuning and sub-spec issues.
You (and buddies) are living in a glass bubble of ignorance or denial if you don't recognise that BT is a huge f'ing problem.

[Specialka]

Still do not see the issue with BT, except that it should do more dmg, when compared to the simplicity of the alternatives or even other specs.

[Lex Icon]

BT & SR are outdated and don't fit in modern WoW and should be replaced... those in favor of keeping them aren't really worth catering to so that's pretty much it.

[Specialka]

BT & SR are outdated and don't fit in modern WoW and should be replaced... those in favor of keeping them aren't really worth catering to so that's pretty much it.

What is the issue exactly? BT should be the best talent. You can't handle it, pick one another, simple.

[Lex Icon]

What is the issue exactly? BT should be the best talent. You can't handle it, pick one another, simple.

the issue is that it's pretty much a target dummy talent... and it holds the entire spec back. by existing it needs to be the the most powerful option, making the other options non viable.