Mafia 109 - Game Thread - Russian Roulette

[Dendrek]

Who's Worg?

Bageloaf. It was his previous name on these forums.

- - - Updated - - -

If I thought you were scum this would be a very different conversation. I wouldn't be responding beyond that.

If you thought I was scum, you wouldn't engage me to see if you could catch me in a lie? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here. When you think someone is scum, that's all the more reason to have a conversation with them. That is, unless you are certain they are scum. But even then, you might catch them in a slip.

I admit that I could have been more clear here. I didn't get all my thoughts into the post like I should have. That's on me.

Yes Listo provided some unique reads today but that still didn't out weigh what felt off about his posts at the time.

You said you'd be more clear, but there's nothing more clear about this statement. What felt off? Could you look at his posts and provide the "offness" you're seeing? You do point out one post (below) in particular, but since we're talking about him feeling off, your explanation does not explain that. It only shows his analysis is weak. This "off" you're referring to, is it a meta read? Because if it is, then him doing an analysis today does feel slightly off. This early in the game, he almost never does that. His normal MO would be to say "I don't have any reads". And while his analysis may be weak, it was practical and it was reasonable. It didn't feel forced.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. 5 posts in 24 hours shouldn't be the bar for "surprisingly engaged" for anyone even Listo. We are going to have to debate whether or not:

is concrete evidence. There isn't any consistancy in his "I would expect to find scum on trains". Crackle was a leading vote on Marack with Lysah and Virothe near the end (seemingly "saving" Virothe) but Crackle was the middle of Krayzy not that far removed from even you with Lysah and Virothe bringing up the rear again. There is no suspicion on the people between them on trains either. I guess he would need to avoid that because he'd be suspicious based on what I would judge his logic to be.

I would argue that you're seeming lack of commenting on that would be likely because his view of Crackle aligned with your own.

That's a fair question. Ask him about it if it intrigues you. Don't use it as evidence in an argument against me. This would be legitimate scum hunting if you were to engage him with this point. But you're more interested in defending yourself than finding scum.

I disagree here. In a setup like we've got, blindly following "Lora" could be just as dangerous. Especially with what I felt could have been a back-tracking of his confidence last game day. I wanted to discuss it because

really felt like the perfect setup to explain away an incorrect result. You can't argue that Lora wasn't SUPER sure Krayzy was scum yesterday but the above was Lora's FIRST post of today. Lora looked to be giving himself wiggle room and that's a dangerous thing to ignore.

This is the first point you've made that I actually feel has strong merit. If Lora was trying to downplay his result then it's compelling reason to be distrustful of him. But that is not how I read his statement. If you look at it in context, there were posts before his discussing the potential randomness in the game. In particular, the potential randomness of the scum kill. Now, if you had asked him why he made that statement, I would have supported the question. But instead, you just basically said he was lying, and have been steadily and more aggressively pushing that narrative. This is what I don't like

I apologize, I read your like 9 posts in the span of a half hour with no one posting in between as growing angry that people weren't instantly reacting to you. It was probably the bold... and the fact that every time I refreshed so I could see if I missed anything before I posted my response to you, you had posted again.

I was annoyed, but not with the lack of responses. I was annoyed at what I had come to the thread to find.

- - - Updated - - -

Er. That's 3 more lynches before LyLo. Not quite the same thing!

- - - Updated - - -

No wait . 2 more lynches. Because we already did one wrong.
Geez, math too hard for this time of night.

Earlier today I was going to say there's no way you could be scum. Because certain things that have happened (I won't discuss exactly what, because it may give scum hints on how to play better) might not have happened if you were scum. You'd have warned them about the stupidity of those actions. (They're logic/math-related mistakes, btw.)

Maybe I was giving you too much credit?

(I'm joking :P)

[Danner]

I am getting dumberer by the year. It's actually annoying me quite a bit that I'm no longer as clever as I used to. I think I peaked at the age of 6 though.

I sometime still have my days. And then I have days where I can't add 3+2.
Today seems to be the latter.

I've also been somewhat absent this gameday, so if I missed something glaring tring to catch up, shove it in my face and scream a little. It may just help.

[Lysah]

You guys talk too much.

@ dendrek
I'm not scum-hunting Lora, just pointing out what a douche he's being. I said like ten pages ago that there's no reason to worry about him for a while.

At this point I'm convinced Largehorn is either the only intelligent player or the only honest one. Confirmed town in my book.

[Dendrek]

At this point I'm convinced Largehorn is either the only intelligent player or the only honest one. Confirmed town in my book.

I don't really bother town reading people at all.

Indeed. /10chars

[Nefarious Tea]

Indeed. /10chars

I mean, the anti-Crackleslap train consists of "he didn't post much therefore he's mafia" which isn't exactly a strong argument either.

[Dendrek]

I mean, the anti-Crackleslap train consists of "he didn't post much therefore he's mafia" which isn't exactly a strong argument either.

First: As a general rule, if you don't know a player's meta, this actually is a strong argument. Lurking is something scum are very likely to do. Likewise, not having an actual argument or opinion on the game state is another obvious tell. And he's "convinced" you're a bad boy, without actually being convinced. (Even that read is fake.) He's doing exactly what scum who don't know what to do would do. Nothing about his play is town.

Second: This is a meta read, but there's no way Crackle would play this way if he were town along side someone who is leading town, like me. He'd be eager. He'd be happy to be involved. He wouldn't be sulking in the shadows.

Crackle is scum.

But I have to wonder why you're defending him...

[Graeham]

I'm tempted to move my vote over to Crackleslap as well. Not necessarily because I feel like he's scum - I think that could go either way, really - but mostly because he has a recent trend of not really showing up to engage/defend himself to any great extent. Presumably due to various distractions and an admittedly awkward time zone, but still...

[Dendrek]

@ dendrek
I'm not scum-hunting Lora, just pointing out what a douche he's being. I said like ten pages ago that there's no reason to worry about him for a while.

My issue is that what you're doing serves no purpose that could benefit town. Either you're also being a douche by focusing on interpersonal conflicts that have nothing to do with this game. Or you're setting up a case against Lora. I don't think you're doing the latter, which is why I don't think what you're doing serves any purpose.

Do you remember a few games back when Deca raged at you? While Deca went way out of line and became emotional, and that situation doesn't directly compare to what you're doing now, it feels very similar.

If you aren't going after Lora for game-related reasons, there's no reason to be doing it. Is it really helpful at all to put the cop on tilt?

- - - Updated - - -

I'm tempted to move my vote over to Crackleslap as well. Not necessarily because I feel like he's scum - I think that could go either way, really - but mostly because he has a recent trend of not really showing up to engage/defend himself to any great extent. Presumably due to various distractions and an admittedly awkward time zone, but still...

Really? Either way? His trend of not showing up, is that when he's town, scum, or both? Because I'm pretty sure it's not when he's town.

[Nefarious Tea]

But I have to wonder why you're defending him...

I'm not defending Crackleslap so much as questioning the argument.

[Largehorn]

Dendrek isn't wrong. Lora isn't important right now. We should focus on the others. Right now, that's you six as far as I am concerned. Your list may be different.

Great. So focus on others. I apparently can't because my comments on Lora seem to be partially why I'm "scummy".

If you thought I was scum, you wouldn't engage me to see if you could catch me in a lie? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here. When you think someone is scum, that's all the more reason to have a conversation with them. That is, unless you are certain they are scum. But even then, you might catch them in a slip.

Absolutely. You are misunderstanding me. I'd be much more focused on other parts and ignoring your pushing that "I'm scummy". That's what I meant by that.

You said you'd be more clear, but there's nothing more clear about this statement. What felt off? Could you look at his posts and provide the "offness" you're seeing?

Now that I am at a point where I won't have distractions (work) happening at any minute. I will do my best.

Something I think we need to remember from the rules.

I am not saying this to defend Krayzy but it is possible roles will be like that.

Here's a good one to start with. For not defending Krayzy, this post was probably the only post in "direct" defense of Krayzy made by anyone. There were other posts from other people you could argue were "indirect" defesenses of Krayzy. Initially I took it at face value.

Beep Boop I'm am not here. Listo.exe has seen that Lora decided to say krayzy is scum in the earlier part of the day.

Vote: Krayzy

His vote later in the day. Mostly read this as a joke since Krayzy's post before was a "vote unless Listo shows up". That said the phrasing of Listo's reason seemed off to me in context with the first post I quoted.

Like I said before. A big thing that would change that up depends on what Virothe flips as town we would know scum wouldn't care who got lynched in the end so they would likely be spread at that point. However if Virothe flips scum I feel like scum would have tried everything in their power to make sure that Marack had the greater odds of being lynched. Also I didn't realize my 3 town reads were the people not on Marack's train >.> Like I said I don't have many good reads with literally no one from the Marack train being dead yet.

It would probably change everything to be fair. My lists are always changing on a day to day basis due to flips and trains. The only one who "might" stay leaning town in that case would be Graeham in that situation.

These two together are pretty non-committal Listo, but he'd opened his posting this game day seeming fairly committal. That all together better explains what I think was off.

You do point out one post (below) in particular, but since we're talking about him feeling off, your explanation does not explain that. It only shows his analysis is weak. This "off" you're referring to, is it a meta read?

Yes. You've even quoted me as saying such.

Because if it is, then him doing an analysis today does feel slightly off. This early in the game, he almost never does that. His normal MO would be to say "I don't have any reads". And while his analysis may be weak, it was practical and it was reasonable. It didn't feel forced.

Not everything has to be forced to be off. Forgive me but this is likely to get very Meta.

The last few games now you have been a very out spoken town member and have pursued every single line you felt was "forced". This game is no different. "Forcing" logic through is a sure fire way to get scum read by one of the most out spoken town players. "Forcing" logic by this point has become a guaranteed "Scum Tell". Everyone who plays here regularly knows that. Once it's become a KNOWN scum tell though, it stops being a tell all together. Add to that, it's a pretty easy thing to avoid.

That really had nothing to do with what's going on now though.

That's a fair question. Ask him about it if it intrigues you. Don't use it as evidence in an argument against me. This would be legitimate scum hunting if you were to engage him with this point. But you're more interested in defending yourself than finding scum.

So there's scum hunting... and talking into an "empty void". Listo might respond to comments about his posts when he's active again, here in probably a few hours. Listo was not active at the time though.

You were here. You are actively going after me. Should I have chosen to ignore you to instead "scum hunt" after people who weren't here to respond? Where would that have gotten me?

This is the first point you've made that I actually feel has strong merit. If Lora was trying to downplay his result then it's compelling reason to be distrustful of him. But that is not how I read his statement. If you look at it in context, there were posts before his discussing the potential randomness in the game. In particular, the potential randomness of the scum kill.

Please read the 8 posts before his again. We were discussing Kryllian updating the OP and how that as roles were "upgraded" the OP would be updated to reflect that. His post was well beyond your comment about it in your post to open this Day phase (about an hour after but a good few posts and the topic of conversation had clearly changed). He didn't quote anything to "add context" to his post. So forgive me for looking at it starkly in the middle of what was a different conversation.

Now, if you had asked him why he made that statement, I would have supported the question. But instead, you just basically said he was lying, and have been steadily and more aggressively pushing that narrative. This is what I don't like

Let's stop there for a moment a look at what I actually said:

Well that's rather interesting since you were rather insistent yesterday. Was it a success/fail kind of random? Actually don't answer that. I don't want to know nor do I want scum too.

Hrmmmmm that really doesn't look like I said he was lying to me.

Then my next post in regards to anything that had to do with Lora:

quote me where i said there was no rng. i'll wait.

Quoting you saying that exact phrase is going to prove impossible, but I would like to point everyone to this little exchange:

Are you sure your investigation was for me? I have to submit 3 names for my action and I have no choice who gets protected.

lol you can bullshit them but you cant bullshit me bruh.

That right there is what implied to me that there was no randomness in your role. Since the only thing Krayzy could have been "bullshitting" you about was his claim and how it worked. Now, you are going to claim that you were calling him out on the fact he wasn't the doctor, but since you haven't specifically defended that post before I pointed out... you could be lying about your intent at the time.

Now is that really actionable? No, but damn did it make it seem to me that you were now trying to back track earlier this day phase.

Now since you've mentioned that context is important I'll remind you, and everyone else, that that part of my post was in regards to a discussion that

Large and Lysah seem to be assuming there was some ambiguity to the result you received N1. That is something I sincerely doubt. Both because of how certain you were in your result, and because I doubt Kryllian would put a cop in a game that has 5 scum out of 15 players and then give that cop results they cannot trust.

Which was what the discussion around Lora had been focused on. I was clarifying why I found Lora's first post of the day suspicious. Yet this is some how me pushing a narrative that Lora is lying.

I will admit though to running a campaign to prove that Lora is a hypocrite but that's a completely different thing is it not?

I was annoyed, but not with the lack of responses. I was annoyed at what I had come to the thread to find.

Makes sense and I'm sorry for misinterpreting it. A reaction to one post can color previous ones. You're wrong but that's okay too.

Indeed. /10chars

My reaction exactly actually. XD

Really? Either way? His trend of not showing up, is that when he's town, scum, or both? Because I'm pretty sure it's not when he's town.

I actually believe it's both. I could be wrong but I don't think he's been scum very much recently. Since this is based on a meta read, someone should probably go back and look at a couple of previous threads.

I'm not defending Crackleslap so much as questioning the argument.

Which would be defending Crackle.

[Graeham]

Really? Either way? His trend of not showing up, is that when he's town, scum, or both? Because I'm pretty sure it's not when he's town.

I'll be honest, I've been salty about Crackle ever since that game where he got distracted at a critical point and the timer ran out and it cost the game. I can't remember which game that was, though. So, yeah, I'm not against voting on him. It'd just be coloured by bias.

[Largehorn]

I actually believe it's both. I could be wrong but I don't think he's been scum very much recently. Since this is based on a meta read, someone should probably go back and look at a couple of previous threads.

To clarify a bit here: I would like to think like Dendrek is, that a town Crackle would be actively engaged in what was going on since he wouldn't be the only active town alive but that said {above post goes here}.

[Crackleslap]

First: As a general rule, if you don't know a player's meta, this actually is a strong argument. Lurking is something scum are very likely to do. Likewise, not having an actual argument or opinion on the game state is another obvious tell. And he's "convinced" you're a bad boy, without actually being convinced. (Even that read is fake.) He's doing exactly what scum who don't know what to do would do. Nothing about his play is town.

Second: This is a meta read, but there's no way Crackle would play this way if he were town along side someone who is leading town, like me. He'd be eager. He'd be happy to be involved. He wouldn't be sulking in the shadows.

Crackle is scum.

But I have to wonder why you're defending him...

This is just wrong. Flat out lie. Idk why but people keep having this false belief that I play certain roles certain ways. I don't even know how I play. You'll get active me or inactive me. Completely random.

on day ones I always vote pretty quickly on someone with at least 2+ votes. Always. Just for the sake of starting a train. Regardless of alignment. After that it's about me remembering I'm playing and then catching up to find reads. If I have a strong read, I'll start pursuing. Usually wrong, but a lot of the times I can confirm someone innocent just through arguments and voting patterns (or should be).

Right now it's "cops doing things", my read is veredyn at the moment. I don't have a read other than me wanting to know if it was scum lead or not. Best way of doing that is literally lynching them.

- - - Updated - - -

I'll be honest, I've been salty about Crackle ever since that game where he got distracted at a critical point and the timer ran out and it cost the game. I can't remember which game that was, though. So, yeah, I'm not against voting on him. It'd just be coloured by bias.

Lmao. I remember that happening, but not what game. Felt like we didn't deserve to win which is probably why i was inactive. Granted if I was there I would have correctly lynched and won the game. :/

- - - Updated - - -
@Veredyn whats/whos your strongest read. GIMME DEM ANSWERS FAM. IDGAF IF YOU ARE A NEWBIE! NOW!

- - - Updated - - -

And of course when I acutally got time to post no ones around!

- - - Updated - - -

IVE GOT 2 N HALF HOURS BOFORE I LEAVE FOR WORK!

[Largehorn]

And of course when I acutally got time to post no ones around!

Lies
/10char

[Crackleslap]

Lies
/10char

Well don't waste time, if ye got questions ask away.

[Virothe]

[B]or Virothe for reasons outlined earlier.

pfft you would

[Dendrek]

I'm going to skip the listo comments for now, but I'll probably get back to them later. Thank you for clarifying though.

Great. So focus on others. I apparently can't because my comments on Lora seem to be partially why I'm "scummy".

This really isn't why you're scummy for me. It just annoyed me. And I fear that if I weren't around, it would have been an even bigger topic of discussion. Maybe I'm wrong to stop it. But I very strongly think I'm not.

Absolutely. You are misunderstanding me. I'd be much more focused on other parts and ignoring your pushing that "I'm scummy". That's what I meant by that.

Fair enough. Sorry.

Not everything has to be forced to be off. Forgive me but this is likely to get very Meta.

The last few games now you have been a very out spoken town member and have pursued every single line you felt was "forced". This game is no different. "Forcing" logic through is a sure fire way to get scum read by one of the most out spoken town players. "Forcing" logic by this point has become a guaranteed "Scum Tell". Everyone who plays here regularly knows that. Once it's become a KNOWN scum tell though, it stops being a tell all together. Add to that, it's a pretty easy thing to avoid.

That really had nothing to do with what's going on now though.

You assume you know how to interpret what I consider to be forced. You also assume it's easy to get around it. I consider multiple types of context when analyzing a statement. It's pretty difficult to come up with a narrative that won't have any holes in it if you're lying. That's not even to say the argument has to be sound. As you pointed out, Listo's arguments were somewhat lacking. And yet I said they didn't feel forced.

But in truth, I don't know why you'd bother saying this at all. Are you saying it's easy to avoid my scum hunting? Because if it is, it's certainly surprising that you couldn't.

So there's scum hunting... and talking into an "empty void". Listo might respond to comments about his posts when he's active again, here in probably a few hours. Listo was not active at the time though.

You were here. You are actively going after me. Should I have chosen to ignore you to instead "scum hunt" after people who weren't here to respond? Where would that have gotten me?

My point was more that if your question we're referring to now is something you had in mind, why did you wait until I started going after you to bring it up? Why didn't you bring it up before that? I'm not saying completely ignore me and go after Listo. You have the right to defend yourself. Including with evidence that you thought compelling. What strikes me as odd is that you thought that evidence was compelling, but you never brought it up.

Please read the 8 posts before his again. We were discussing Kryllian updating the OP and how that as roles were "upgraded" the OP would be updated to reflect that. His post was well beyond your comment about it in your post to open this Day phase (about an hour after but a good few posts and the topic of conversation had clearly changed). He didn't quote anything to "add context" to his post. So forgive me for looking at it starkly in the middle of what was a different conversation.

That's not a reasonable interpretation of context. He might have read the posts above and replied before getting through the rest? It might have been something that stuck in his mind before he finished reading the rest and then decided to post it? If he thought there was something compelling to add to the thread, even if that line of conversation had temporarily stopped, why wouldn't he add it?

Let's stop there for a moment a look at what I actually said: [snip]

Your first post regarding Lora was absolutely fine. Your second one is less so. But regardless, my issue is mostly that it's not productive. It may have just been an error in judgement on your part, in my opinion it was becoming too much of an issue. I don't think Lora should be our focus. His claim is "easy" to disprove. Our focus needs to be the unconfirmed people.

[Largehorn]

Well don't waste time, if ye got questions ask away.

Sure your big response post basically negates any "pressure" you might have gotten from it on Vere. Why have you decided to focus then instead of reacting to literally anything else in the thread?

Especially since you have a "read" but you don't know it scum or not?

[Dendrek]

And of course when I acutally got time to post no ones around!

There is a ton of stuff that has happened today. Perhaps you might dig into some of that.

Veleryn is your only read? How? Why? He's barely done anything (compared to other players) this game. That's not to say he's inactive, but there's very little there to even find scummy. So how do you have such a strong read on him?

Explain your read on him.

- - - Updated - - -

pfft you would

Oh look. A rare Virothe appears. It's kind of sad Krayzy didn't succeed in his bussing attempt D1. Don't you think?

- - - Updated - - -

Flat out lie.

Amazing. So you're calling me a liar? That means I'm scum, doesn't it? Why would I lie about you if I'm town?

[Virothe]

Oh look. A rare Virothe appears.

Elusive more than rare? I'm on vacation for 9 days now though so I don't have much of an excuse to not but around, sept BfA on monday