Metzen Interview about Fandom and Toxicity

[clevin]

The guys I'm talking about are a bit more extreme than that. These aren't the "I don't like to have to look outside the game to find the lore" guys. These are the "I refuse to look outside the game to find the lore, if it's not in the game I'll just assume Blizz's writing is crap if I don't understand something and complain about it endlessly on the forums ignoring everyone who tries to tell me what it is I haven't seen."

On that particular point, I find it annoying that major events or significant motivations for a character's actions are not told in game and I personally won't look outside the game because I'm not that invested and because I only want to devote so much time and effort to what is, after all, a video game universe.

The thing for me is that we pay $50+ for the game and another $150+ for a year's worth of subs. Time investment aside (which is also significant) I think that for that price they should put the main beats of the story in the damn game. When I hear that "oh, everything that Character A does in game that seems to nonsensical in game actually makes a lot of sense when you read this short story..." it's annoying. I don't expect all of the detail of a short story or a novel in a cut scene, but I do expect that the in game scenarios and quests tell me enough that I get the main points of the story and the main motivations of a character if those are to be revealed at all. Books etc are find for fleshing out the world, telling side-stories and the like.

This is more than just me though - they should also recognize that many, probably most of the players of the game will never read any of the stories, whether they're freely downloadable or for purchase. For those people the game is the entire story and it should hang together and make sense for them.

[The Stormbringer]

negative opinions do not hurt people

toxicity is not a real problem with your definition the /ignore function solves it 100%

then you add "threatening people needlessly" that's boarderline illegal or is illegal why would you group that with being negative

Note, I said 'offering only negative opinions rather than constructive criticism'. If they offered both negative opinions AND constructive criticism, that's not toxic.

Example: "This is a piece of shit! What garbage is this, Blizzard? YOU SUCK!" VS. "I'm really not a fan of this, Blizzard. Can we learn some more about the motivations here? Things here seem vague and hard to understand."

One is just being an asshole, the other is expression your opinion and giving a method to improve it. And yes, fun fact, assholes are toxic.

[Deleted]

Oh god, the guy who ruined Thrall, comes back n says the Last Jedi was good...

[Venziir]

Oh god, the guy who ruined Thrall, comes back n says the Last Jedi was good...

.... Ironically also the guy who MADE Thrall.....

[Nurasu]

Oh god, the guy who ruined Thrall, comes back n says the Last Jedi was good...

It was too deep for you to understand, and you can only criticize the movie and not the director that made it terrible, because he's completely removed from his work. /s

[Grimbold21]

While there is certainly toxicity out there, the line about artists and whatnot giving all they got was amusing. If the storyline - so far - is a result of such effort, well, perhaps they should consider rehiring.

[yjmark]

Note, I said 'offering only negative opinions rather than constructive criticism'. If they offered both negative opinions AND constructive criticism, that's not toxic.

Example: "This is a piece of shit! What garbage is this, Blizzard? YOU SUCK!" VS. "I'm really not a fan of this, Blizzard. Can we learn some more about the motivations here? Things here seem vague and hard to understand."

One is just being an asshole, the other is expression your opinion and giving a method to improve it. And yes, fun fact, assholes are toxic.

You almost sound like Taliesen. lol

"It was a shitshow....obviously!" Perfectly describes the forums....lol

[Sansnom]

Oh god, the guy who ruined Thrall, comes back n says the Last Jedi was good...

I think you did not pay attention to the interview on the subject.

[Deleted]

I think you did not pay attention to the interview on the subject.

Sure, never criticize the artists since they can't handle criticism...snow flakes..

[babyback]

Sure, never criticize the artists since they can't handle criticism...snow flakes..

I can imagine that most criticism they get on social media isn’t categorized as criticism.

[Venziir]

Sure, never criticize the artists since they can't handle criticism...snow flakes..

This has nothing to do with criticism. This has something to do with your hearing and lack of logical thinking.

[Khaza-R]

Sure, never criticize the artists since they can't handle criticism...snow flakes..

Not at all what he said but okay.

He said, if you have criticism then bring up the parts about the franchise/story that you like. And no, personal attacks are not criticism and add nothing of value to the feedback process.

[Nurasu]

I can imagine that most criticism they get on social media isn’t categorized as criticism.

Any criticism is able to be used. "You're shit" doesn't give any obvious answers as to how to improve, but it indicates the customer doesn't like what you're putting out. It's your job to give the most enjoyment to the most people and figure out what they want.

This has nothing to do with criticism. This has something to do with your hearing and lack of logical thinking.

To be fair, I can see some subtle differences between this is bad writing and you're a bad writer that makes things a little more or less personal, but Metzen's point that the artist is removed from their art is fundamentally wrong.

[Jastall]

The first one was decent, I think it's the most recent one that gets the most criticism; but that position is what Metzen was arguing from for the rest of the interview - that writers are somehow above and removed from their own creations.

I'm much more interested in the revelation that Blizzard has a very weak story team by design for their RPG, though.

I mean, to me Blizzard's writing pattern clearly indicates that they design a ''wouldn't it be cool if?'' event first (say, the burning of Teldrassil, or before that the Legion invasion, or WoD, or...) and then the story guys pick up the pieces and try to make a cohesive narrative out of it. Alas, sometimes they do not succeed, or their efforts fail to translate in-game and they attempt to salvage it with outside media. It's not like the story in a well-written game or novel where events logically flow from one to the next.

[babyback]

Any criticism is able to be used. "You're shit" doesn't give any obvious answers as to how to improve, but it indicates the customer doesn't like what you're putting out. It's your job to give the most enjoyment to the most people and figure out what they want.



To be fair, I can see some subtle differences between this is bad writing and you're a bad writer that makes things a little more or less personal, but Metzen's point that the artist is removed from their art is fundamentally wrong.

It’s pretty obvious that the storylines in BFA are made to stir up the community and create a buzz. In that sense Blizzard has fulfilled their goals.

[Deleted]

He said, if you have criticism then bring up the parts about the franchise/story that you like.

Deflecting you mean? Lets not talk about the parts one doesn't like? Because god forbid someone mentions that an artist can fuck things up?

I was willing to give this guy a chance, but he has doubled down, talks like a little child "be nice! and think happy thoughts! don't criticize!" It's like he is addressing fans like his own kids, sure many are childish but there's legitimate criticism out there n he just brushes it aside "oh, you are just negative!"

Something has broken with him, spends time with his kids, n now address everyone as kids..wtf, i'll never listen to that guy again, he's senile now.

Any criticism is able to be used. "You're shit" doesn't give any obvious answers as to how to improve, but it indicates the customer doesn't like what you're putting out. It's your job to give the most enjoyment to the most people and figure out what they want.

To be fair, I can see some subtle differences between this is bad writing and you're a bad writer that makes things a little more or less personal, but Metzen's point that the artist is removed from their art is fundamentally wrong.

This.

[Granyala]

Any criticism is able to be used. "You're shit" doesn't give any obvious answers as to how to improve, but it indicates the customer doesn't like what you're putting out. It's your job to give the most enjoyment to the most people and figure out what they want.

To be fair, I can see some subtle differences between this is bad writing and you're a bad writer that makes things a little more or less personal, but Metzen's point that the artist is removed from their art is fundamentally wrong.

"You're shit" is nothing more than an insult and should be treated as such.

Metzen never stated to not criticize. He is an artist. He knows that any artist needs well articulated and detailed criticism in order to grow and improve. What he is saying: stop with the rage and personal attacks. They are not helpful and ultimately only serve one purpose: to demoralize the artist. And that isn't fair.

No self respecting artist is going to give less than he has and puts that out there thinking it is awesome. That just doesn't happen. We need to keep that in mind and when we criticize we should do so in a manner that is constructive and encouraging.

[The Stormbringer]

You almost sound like Taliesen. lol

"It was a shitshow....obviously!" Perfectly describes the forums....lol

Thank you, lol! Taliesin is a great speaker, and that bit is always funny.

[Nurasu]

I mean, to me Blizzard's writing pattern clearly indicates that they design a ''wouldn't it be cool if?'' event first (say, the burning of Teldrassil, or before that the Legion invasion, or WoD, or...) and then the story guys pick up the pieces and try to make a cohesive narrative out of it. Alas, sometimes they do not succeed, or their efforts fail to translate in-game and they attempt to salvage it with outside media. It's not like the story in a well-written game or novel where events logically flow from one to the next.

Is that normal for game companies? It seems so backward for an RPG to not make the story first. Maybe it would be too challenging to keep content going if the story has to meander rather than jump from one big game event to the next, I'm not sure.

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No self respecting artist is going to give less than he has and puts that out there thinking it is awesome. That just doesn't happen. We need to keep that in mind and when we criticize we should do so in a manner that is constructive and encouraging.

I agree with this, but that doesn't make all artists good even at their best. It's ultimately Blizzard's job to determine their actual capability though, and I'd agree that we need to stick to our arena as consumers of their product. I just don't fully agree that they're immune as Metzen did imply by telling us to stick to the in-game.

[babyback]

Is that normal for game companies? It seems so backward for an RPG to not make the story first. Maybe it would be too challenging to keep content going if the story has to meander rather than jump from one big game event to the next, I'm not sure.

Blizzard is most likely alteady working on the next expansion. They know how the BFA story will end and everything is already written and set. All cinemantics are most likely done or atleast being worked on too.

The problem with storytelling through and mmorpg is that it’s very limited. Even more limited as an expansion. You can basically only tell the story through a set amount of zones and that’s why it’s always so ham fisted.