Arthas and the morally gray question of a burning world tree

[kaelix1]

all they needed was wood and malfurion literally showed in their first confrontation that he could just regrow em easily

That still don't change what he said

[The Stormbringer]

all they needed was wood and malfurion literally showed in their first confrontation that he could just regrow em easily

That was Cenarius, actually. He also was a great deal more vengeful and touchy about his forest being messed with. I'm sure if they'd tried negotiating for lumber rights, or convincing the Druids to come grow some trees outside Ashenvale for them to chop them down, that'd be fine. You just don't go onto someone's property and take their stuff because you 'need' it. That's called stealing.

[AcidicSyn]

That was Cenarius, actually. He also was a great deal more vengeful and touchy about his forest being messed with. I'm sure if they'd tried negotiating for lumber rights, or convincing the Druids to come grow some trees outside Ashenvale for them to chop them down, that'd be fine. You just don't go onto someone's property and take their stuff because you 'need' it. That's called stealing.

IIRC they did negotiate with the Alliance for that. Then something I cannot recall the details of happened, so they (orcs) basically said; well alright then we'll go the old fashioned route!

[The Stormbringer]

IIRC they did negotiate with the Alliance for that. Then something I cannot recall the details of happened, so they (orcs) basically said; well alright then we'll go the old fashioned route!

I believe it was the Twilight's Hammer making it seem like the Orcs had ambushed and killed a bunch of Night Elves, and then skinned them.

[Oakshana]

nightelfs attackin horde in ashenvale since warcraft 3 and alliance attacked the horde in stormheim and in silithus, war is ALREADY happening

Stop being a goddamn Horde apologist.

Night Elves attacked the Warsong Clan lead by Grommash (Not the Horde proper, it wasn't a united faction yet). because they came in and started culling trees in land they had no business being in. It doesn't matter what the Orcish tenets or ways are, or if they even thought it was "just a forest". The Night Elves had every right to attempt to route them from their ancestral lands. Garrosh continuing this was just perpetuating a wrong. The Horde was the "warmonger" in every instances of attacks in Night Elf territory.

The Alliance didn't attack the Horde in Stormheim. Genn Greymane saw an opportunity for vengeance against Sylvanas, right or wrong. And yes, I realize that even though it was Greymane, it's still perceived as an Alliance attack. But you are conveniently forgetting that Sylvanas & Garrosh started this first when they were attempting to raize Gilneas for the Horde. You act like Sylvanas was innocent in this. She was COMPLETELY complicit with the use of the Plague.

War is already happening? It's been happening since the Orcish Horde first stepped foot on Azeroth's soil. Since the Trolls tried to decimate the Elves eons ago.

I am not saying the Alliance is entirely innocent, nor am I suggesting that the Horde's methods have not been sometimes confused as act of war. But the Horde has spent more time encroaching on the lands of others and the Alliance has spent more time defending their ground.

[yjmark]

Now with Sylvanas' allegedly morally gray moment in Darkshore, She had already won. Either way she decides to go, she's already won in that situation. There's nothing morally gray about burning the world tree when you have already won. There was the morally better situation of occupying Tel'drassil, and the morally worse situation of burning it. If she had occupied the damn overgrown thing, that would have been such a great situation for Sylvanas. instead, on a whim, she burns the tree to kill hope.

You should really read the novella. Sylvanas intended to kill Malfurion to drive the Night Elves to desperation. Since Saurfang flubbed, and did not kill Malfurion, Sylvanas needed to do something else to drive them to desperation. Burning the world tree was the perfect opportunity for that. It accomplished exactly what she needed it to. It led the Alliance into her trap. She would have even been able to kill Anduin and Genn if Jaina didn't magically show up. So, from that perspective, it was a very calculated and smart move. It was really really really close to working.

Now, of course, morally it is insane. :P But burning the tree was a very good tactical approach if you don't have morals. Apparently, Sylvanas has proven many times that she does not.

[clevin]

Have you read the novella "A Good War"? It answers why she burned it, and it was not just because she got triggered by the night elf.

I'm at the point where if it didn't happen in the game, it didn't happen. Having a major character's motivations for such a pivotal action be fleshed out in a novella outside of the game is just bullshit. By all means, show some other stuff about it but this is a key event at the start of the expansion... and it's in a novella? What about all of the people who never will read those?

[Nnyco]

Stop being a goddamn Horde apologist.

Night Elves attacked the Warsong Clan lead by Grommash (Not the Horde proper, it wasn't a united faction yet). because they came in and started culling trees in land they had no business being in. It doesn't matter what the Orcish tenets or ways are, or if they even thought it was "just a forest". The Night Elves had every right to attempt to route them from their ancestral lands. Garrosh continuing this was just perpetuating a wrong. The Horde was the "warmonger" in every instances of attacks in Night Elf territory.

The Alliance didn't attack the Horde in Stormheim. Genn Greymane saw an opportunity for vengeance against Sylvanas, right or wrong. And yes, I realize that even though it was Greymane, it's still perceived as an Alliance attack. But you are conveniently forgetting that Sylvanas & Garrosh started this first when they were attempting to raize Gilneas for the Horde. You act like Sylvanas was innocent in this. She was COMPLETELY complicit with the use of the Plague.

War is already happening? It's been happening since the Orcish Horde first stepped foot on Azeroth's soil. Since the Trolls tried to decimate the Elves eons ago.

I am not saying the Alliance is entirely innocent, nor am I suggesting that the Horde's methods have not been sometimes confused as act of war. But the Horde has spent more time encroaching on the lands of others and the Alliance has spent more time defending their ground.

"you call for peace when it suits you" fits perfectly here

[Khaza-R]

In my opinion, the War of Thorns would have come across a lot more morally grey if Sylvanas was losing the war and in an act of desperation decided to torch Teldrassil rather than claim it.

I am not really sure why they didn't go that route unless they wanted to purposefully portray her as a villain.

[clevin]

all they needed was wood and malfurion literally showed in their first confrontation that he could just regrow the trees easily

(breaks into Nnyco's house, steals their computer and TV)... hey, I needed it and you can easily buy more stuff. So it's OK to invade your space and take your things, right??

[Oakshana]

"you call for peace when it suits you" fits perfectly here

Oh knock it off.

I already stated the Alliance is not entirely innocent. But the Horde factions spent more time making splintered decisions when it suited them. They have been the aggressors FAR more often. One this the Alliance is definitely guilty of is intolerance of more "tribal" races. But when those tribal races, such as Orcs and Trolls spend more time warmongering than not, it tends to leave more progressively societal races ill at ease.

I'll tell you what, if the Humans had only ever had to interact with Tauren, I sincerely doubt there would be the levels of mistrust.

Again, the Alliance isn't innocent. They have their ill informed and ill-intented individuals. But don't act like the Horde hasn't earned the reputation that it has.

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all they needed was wood and malfurion literally showed in their first confrontation that he could just regrow the trees easily

Then maybe they should have fucking just asked?

[plz delete account]

"you call for peace when it suits you" fits perfectly here

How fucking ironic and copy-outty is this?
If you were wondering, it's very much both ironic and a cop out.

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I'm not really going to point out the flaws in your argument Nnyco, because let's be honest, three other users have already done so, and so if I defeated your entire argument a fourth time, I'd end up getting an infraction for spam.