Horde lost in the Battle for the Undercity

[Skulltaker]

She ends up sending a small crew to break into Stormwind to break out Saurfang, and end up freeing the Zandalari Princess or whatever while they're there too.

The major thing that comes out of this is that now they have a way to connect with the Zandalari to recruit more allies, which had absolutely nothing to do with Saurfang being imprisoned. It's not like he talked to her about how cool the Horde was or something, and if Sylvanas knew that she was there already, then Saurfang had no need to be there either.

She already tried causing in-fighting among the Alliance, and failed. That's what the attack on the Night Elves was suppose to be, she thought Genn and the Worgen would flip out that Anduin would try to save the Night Elves first, but Genn just got mad that Anduin would even think that he would be against that.

I mean, so far she's had failed plan after plan.

She tried to take out Malfurion to break the Night Elves, but she almost died herself to him until Saurfang strikes Malfurion in the back.
She left Malfurion to be killed by Saurfang, which he refused to (really, she should have saw that coming since he was already saying it was a dishonorable blow)
She then decides "Welp, plan A failed, lets burn the tree down to break their spirit!".

Ends up, burning the tree down didn't break their spirits either, just enraged them more.

So of course Undercity was attacked like she did know. There's one thing so far.

She kept throwing her plague out, which would have normally prevented the Alliance from advancing even (Seriously, if her plan was to try to lure them in, she did a bad job at it considering she had no way of knowing Jaina would show up).

And then, when she finally gets everyone to where she wants them, they escape anyway.

Ahm, no.

Horde Players are not send to retrieve Saurfang. It is implied, but when you get to him, Saurfang redirects you to the Zandalari. Nathanos knew about the Zandalari ship and prisoners being present in Stormwind, so Sylvanas knew that they'd be there, too.

[Jester Joe]

Ahm, no.

Horde Players are not send to retrieve Saurfang. It is implied, but when you get to him, Saurfang redirects you to the Zandalari. Nathanos knew about the Zandalari ship and prisoners being present in Stormwind, so Sylvanas knew that they'd be there, too.

ahm, yes then.

Saurfang had nothing to do with it then, like I said. He had no relevancy to the situation.

That is what I mean. Once all that is over Saurfang is still with the Alliance and asks to go talk to Anduin. I strongly believe that at that point tensions are going to rise within the Alliance. Saurfang getting captured is just another part of the plan to cause infighting, the burning of Teldrassil of Malfurion's death was just the first step and part of that plan.

Whenever a first plan fails she seems to have a second plan ready... and a third, but the great overall theme seems to be that everyone is walking straight into het traps and ploys. That is what defines her character: ruthless cunning. Every time the Alliance gets their asses saved she doesn't stomp her feet or get upset. She gives an amused smile and seems to welcome the challenge.

At this point I'm strongly convinced that everything that is happening is all according to plan for Sylvanas. That seems to be the entire theme of all the cinematics and story leading up to BfA so far, including Saurfang's behavior: eg. "They'll come for us now!" (Yes, that is what she wanted apparently!)

This is where my details get a bit iffy, I thought they removed his request to talk to Anduin?

[Druitz]

Hrde lost city. Alliance lost morale. Once gain Sylvanas laughed at Andiun and showed he is just a boy and is not good king. If not Jaina he could be dead. Horde lost city but overall horde did MUCH more when defending undercity than alliance when defending teldrssil.

I hope for any good alliance vicory in the future and Andiun to not be so bad at war

[Yunara]

Maybe you haven't read the novellas and such. But the horde didn't destroy the Night Elves, Malfurion's plan wasn't to win, his plan was to delay so that the tree could be evacuated, that's why Tyrande wasn't there. She wanted to fight, but they both knew the evacuation was more important since the battle couldn't be won.

True, not everyone made it out, but a large portion did, so much so that Stormwind was overflowing with refugees and they needed to be moved to Goldshire and other parts around the city.

The horde also did not take Darnassus without casualties. They paid a significant price to march through Ashenvale, then Darkshore.

The Alliance casualties in the battle for Undercity are similar to the Horde casualties in Kalimdor. There were some lost to the blight, but as you can see in the cinematic, Anduin kept a lot of his forces alive. After Jaina shows up, the horde are fully routed with little ability to strike back effectively.

Now you say that Alliance is flooded with refugees and Horde isn't? The Night Elves are probably no more in number than the Forsaken. Just because their war forces were spread thinly through the surrounding forests doesn't mean there "two regions" of refugees. Their number will be similar to the forsaken. And in any case, Night Elf Refugees are going to be better received than Forsaken Refugees, considering they smell of rotting flesh and are generally distrusted by the majority of jorde races.

Now strategically, each side has lost about the same thing. The Alliance lost the Night Elf area, and that's a massive blow to the Alliance's ability to move forces to and about Kalimdor, and the Draenei are somewhat isolated on their island. But the Horde are in the same position. They've lost not only the Undercity, but their ability to stage any kind of troops in the Eastern Kingdoms. They will lose not only Tirisfal Glades, but Silverpine Forest, and their stranglehold on Gilneas.

Additionally, the Alliance is united, while the Horde has divided itself. Each side has won a single battle now. From a destruction standpoint, yes the Horde has destroyed a lot, including their own city, but from a tactical standpoint, the horde have placed themselves in a disadvantaged position. They more or less won Kalimdor, but they lost the Eastern Kingdoms in the gambit AND they also created an enemy out of a kingdom that otherwise would have left them alone for generations. She traded peace and prosperity for a stalemate. In that sense, Sylvanas lost the most, because she had a chance for victory over the alliance, and she's lost that.

[blehmeh]

There are three things at stake in war:

Territory, Troops, and Civilians

In the Battle for Darkshore Alliance lost all three, Horde lost some troops. Overall, Staggering loss for Alliance, Huge win for Horde.

In the Battle for Lordaeron Alliance lost the Territory, but also lost a lot of Troops. The plague decimated both Horde and Alliance, but those affected by the plague then served Sylvanas. Horde already evacuated the civilians and lost the Territory, but that was the back up plan from the beginning to kill as many Alliance troops as possible.

Whichever side loses more resources is the loser. Alliance lost a lot of Troops and gained nothing for it. Horde now have the upper hand against the so-called "world super power".

Overall, Horde won by miles. It's not even a debate really.

[Skulltaker]

ahm, yes then.

Saurfang had nothing to do with it then, like I said. He had no relevancy to the situation.



This is where my details get a bit iffy, I thought they removed his request to talk to Anduin?

I misread your post, sorry.

[Goldielocks]

What? The Horde didn't lose. Each faction lost a city, so cut the common denominator. The most the Horde lost is Saurfang and we know for a fact that's only temporary. Meanwhile the Alliance lost a large portion of an entire race. There's no contest.

[HordeFanboy]

There are so many wrong people here claiming that Horde won the battle for the Undercity it's seriously started to bothering me. I know that someone can play as a Horde, or be Sylvanas fanboy/whatever...

But saying that Horde won that battle is just foolish.

In b4 "You won nothing" bla bla, yeah, Alliance won nothing(other than dominance on the big part of Lordaeron lol), but the Horde lost their city.

Yes, the Horde is now the dominant faction because they destroyed the whole Alliance city with plenty of Night Elves(and other races) there and they evacuated Forsaken etc.

But they still lost the city and the battle.

Just because they used Blight it doesn't mean they won.
First blight(plan B) was used to make Alliance retreat, then Jaina appeared with her magical boat and fixed the ground with her magic.
Second blight(plan C) was used just to prevent the Alliance from entering to their city and they tried to kill their main characters, but they didn't.

...but the Horde still retreated. They ran away. They knew they don't have any chances with that force, so they decided that losing that city is better than giving it for the Alliance from the strategically point of view. But that isn't winning, that's losing.
(sometimes losing battles can make you win war, but still - they lost that exactly battle)

In b4 "OmG YoU PlAy AlLiAnCe!11one", I play both factions and I like them both. Just stating the truth.

If Jaina wasnt deus ex bullshit, ally would lose.
btw pyrrhic victory

[Aquinan]

Making you waste so many lives mean you did lose and the Horde's plan worked. Go cry somewhere else.

[ausoin]

There are three things at stake in war:

Territory, Troops, and Civilians

In the Battle for Darkshore Alliance lost all three, Horde lost some troops. Overall, Staggering loss for Alliance, Huge win for Horde.

In the Battle for Lordaeron Alliance lost the Territory, but also lost a lot of Troops. The plague decimated both Horde and Alliance, but those affected by the plague then served Sylvanas. Horde already evacuated the civilians and lost the Territory, but that was the back up plan from the beginning to kill as many Alliance troops as possible.

Whichever side loses more resources is the loser. Alliance lost a lot of Troops and gained nothing for it. Horde now have the upper hand against the so-called "world super power".

Overall, Horde won by miles. It's not even a debate really.

You are hugely underestimating Horde losses during the War of Thorns, in "Good war" Saurfang said at one point that the NE were actually gona win, military casualties Horde suffered more then the NE, according to the novel. Since most of the NE forces were away and the ships that returned were not the bulk of the fleet.

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Making you waste so many lives mean you did lose and the Horde's plan worked. Go cry somewhere else.

The Alliance didn't loose, the Horde lost 1 of their capitals in the continent, with only 1 left thats not called losing, its a pyhric victory.

[Shibito]

Lol you people take this game way too seriously

[Aquinan]

Y
The Alliance didn't loose, the Horde lost 1 of their capitals in continent, thats not called losing, its a pyhric victory.

You lost Teldrassil, we strategically withdrew and blighted UC....there's a difference.

[ausoin]

What? The Horde didn't lose. Each faction lost a city, so cut the common denominator. The most the Horde lost is Saurfang and we know for a fact that's only temporary. Meanwhile the Alliance lost a large portion of an entire race. There's no contest.

The Horde did lose, losing a very important capital city is losing.

Saurfang is not gonna rejoin the current Horde.

And the NE civilian casualties are actually not that big as we first thought. A lot get out.

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You lost Teldrassil, we strategically withdrew and blighted UC....there's a difference.

You lost a huge number of tropps and had to rely on reserves which at that point were Forsaken only, and those got routed.

You still lost a city, same way we did.

[Steampunkette]

The Horde did lose, losing a very important capital city is losing.

Saurfang is not gonna rejoin the current Horde.

And the NE civilian casualties are actually not that big as we first thought. A lot get out.

You're definitely right on two points... But the first you're wrong on.

A Battle has objectives. And if you succeed in your objectives, you've won the battle. Those objectives can be simple, like taking a castle, or complex, like undermining the enemy's supply lines through precision strikes to avoid the bulk of their military while focusing on taking out their infrastructure.

The Horde didn't go into Lordaeron with the objective of protecting and keeping the city. They went in with the objectives of getting the civilians out, doing as much damage to the Alliance Military as possible, and killing their leadership. The Alliance went in with the intention to capture or kill Sylvanas, and to take Lordaeron for their own.

The Horde succeeded at 2 of their 3 objectives. The Alliance succeeded at 0 of their 2 objectives. The Alliance lost the battle.

If it's comforting, though? The Horde lost the War of Thorns.

[Elgine]

Darnassus was a win for the Horde. Undercity was basically a draw. I'm pretty sure Sylvanas knew she was sacrificing it when she burned the world tree, but it would have been worth it if Jaina hadn't shown up and saved the Allie's leadership.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Nobody won. The Alliance gained nothing. Maybe the Horde lost more, but the Alliance certainly can't claim it as a successful conquest when the Western Plaguelands just doubled in size.

[Fayolynn]

You lost Teldrassil, we strategically withdrew and blighted UC....there's a difference.

Which means the Horde still lost Undercity. It doesnt matter if it was a controlled retreat or not the city does not belong to them anymore. There is a difference between making a strategically sound choice and winning a battle.

[ausoin]

You're definitely right on two points... But the first you're wrong on.

A Battle has objectives. And if you succeed in your objectives, you've won the battle. Those objectives can be simple, like taking a castle, or complex, like undermining the enemy's supply lines through precision strikes to avoid the bulk of their military while focusing on taking out their infrastructure.

The Horde didn't go into Lordaeron with the objective of protecting and keeping the city. They went in with the objectives of getting the civilians out, doing as much damage to the Alliance Military as possible, and killing their leadership. The Alliance went in with the intention to capture or kill Sylvanas, and to take Lordaeron for their own.

The Horde succeeded at 2 of their 3 objectives. The Alliance succeeded at 0 of their 2 objectives. The Alliance lost the battle.

If it's comforting, though? The Horde lost the War of Thorns.

I dunno, Wowpedia has both Darnassaus and Undercity as tactical victorys for the Horde and the Alliance.

The Horde tactics in BoL didn't indicate they were planning to losse the city more like a last measure if they concluded that they can't hold it.

[Fayolynn]

If Jaina wasnt deus ex bullshit, ally would lose.
btw pyrrhic victory

If blight deus ex bullshit wasn't there than alliance would have completely dominated.

[HordeFanboy]

If blight wasn't deus ex bullshit alliance would have completely dominated.

Blight is not a person