Horde lost in the Battle for the Undercity

[Deleted]

the horde wasn't fighting to keep the undercity. Watching the events unfold it looks more like the ultimate plan was to make that fight cost the alliance as many bodies as possible.

if this is the case then losing the city isn't a "loss" as it was according to plan.

This. Counting casualties the Horde is the clear victor after the whole War of Thorns thing.

The Alliance lost Teldrassil along with a load of civilians. The Night Elf race is nearing extinction. It didn't cost the Horde that many casualties to get that done. Clear victory for the Horde here.

Battle for Lordaeron is a pyrrhic victory for the Alliance. Yes, they won the battle. But at what cost? Lots of casualties trying to siege the city and claim it, only to rend it useless due to the blight. And meanwhile the Horde evacuated most people.

Add these two together and the Alliance is really losing in terms of casualties.

[Hyral]

The main issue here is people keep confusing Undercity/Capital City with Lordaeron.

Capital City is in ruins, but we have taken back Lordaeron. Theres spots of horde trying to put some resistance along the land but mostly they've had to retreat to Alterac. That is a huge boon for the Alliance.

[BraveNewWorld]

Yep.

Horde seems to either lose or run away when facing actual battles. The blight was a coward plan and it didn't even succeed (in addition to killing multiple Horde soldiers, wtf?)

Was there even one Horde represent on Argus? You know, when we were trying to defeat the greatest foe in the Warcraft universe (Sargeras) ? Maybe Liadrin? Where were all the Horde characters? All I saw was Draenei (lightforged and ones from azeroth), Night Elves, Humans, and one gnome (Dalaran portal)

[Fayolynn]

The main issue here is people keep confusing Undercity/Capital City with Lordaeron.

Capital City is in ruins, but we have taken back Lordaeron. Theres spots of horde trying to put some resistance along the land but mostly they've had to retreat to Alterac. That is a huge boon for the Alliance.

They also keep confusing the Horde making the strategically sound choice of retreating with the Horde winning the battle.

[ausoin]

This. Counting casualties the Horde is the clear victor after the whole War of Thorns thing.

The Alliance lost Teldrassil along with a load of civilians. The Night Elf race is nearing extinction. It didn't cost the Horde that many casualties to get that done. Clear victory for the Horde here.

Battle for Lordaeron is a pyrrhic victory for the Alliance. Yes, they won the battle. But at what cost? Lots of casualties trying to siege the city and claim it, only to rend it useless due to the blight. And meanwhile the Horde evacuated most people.

Add these two together and the Alliance is really losing in terms of casualties.

The NE are not nearing extinction and the Horde has heavy casualties to the point their commander thought the battle was lost. It was a pyrrhic victory for both sides.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

That's not how deus ex machinas work.

Tirion in ICC was a deus ex machina.

Jaina teleporting people has been a thing since Hyjal.

It was in the context of Anduin being outmanuvered and his personal survival. From his perspective, Jainas arrival and assistance was un-looked for and unexpected and is the only reason he survived.

[Eazy]

I am playing alliance and the horde clearly one this battle. Sylvanas played all alliance leaders like puppets. Every single one of them should be dead and even if they survived, the Horde did not lose the Undercity, the horde had chosen to use it as a trap and gave it up on their own free will.
No win for the alliance here - again.

As I wrote above. I don't care who won anything. But the Horde lost. They didn't play them, they lost the city.
What Alliance got: a big part of Lordaeron. What Alliance lost: a part of the army.
What Horde got: nothing. What Horde lost: a big part of Lordaeron.

It was a necessary sacrifice and a death trap for the Alliance. They have Jaina to thank for her mass bubblehearth otherwise their leadership would’ve been decimated.

Horde - 2
Alliance - 0

Well, you just prove me right. That people still even after losing city are going to say that it was won, but it clearly wasn't.
Necessari sacrifice? Yeah, that is losing a battle.

Just because they lost the city doesn't mean they lost in the grand scheme of things. They deprived the Alliance of their main goal, the one that had motivated them to invade in the first place. It was a stalemate.

LOL. Have you even read the thread? I'm talking about the battle, not grand scheme/plan/war. Horde LOST that battle. We're here just to discuss that battle that horde LOST.

No matter if it was necessary sacrifice, or it was needed to win the war. They LOST THAT battle. Case closed.

Nobody won the battle, it was devastating on both sides.

That's the point also. But people just don't understand simple things.

Horde won.
Then Jaina shows up.
Sylvanas goes to plan B.
Plan B works perfectly.
Jaina rescues the Alliance a second time that day.

Horde didn't won anything, they evacuated and ran away from the Alliance forces. Otherwise they would just stay and fight.

Her cunning >>>>>>>>>>> that of Anduin and Greymane (and Saurfang).

She lost to Greymane in Stormheim.
She didn't finish off one of the tsrongest Alliance leader, though she had a chance.
She lost the city.

Yup, stategic genus.

I dont know much about losing, we got full control over Kalimdor and denied the alliance a historical city almost killing their leader. Sounds like a big win for me.

We're discussing just that battle. Not the whole concept, which I agree with.

Don't argue with trolls, some people are so stubborn and thick, though the situation stares them in the face, they would not admit it. Others are just trying to rile others up, either way, you saw what happened, you know what happened, you have a mind of your own.

If someone says otherwise, you can lok at what they say, if it's nonsense, don't believe them, don't even bother to respond.

That's probably what I'm going to do.
9 pages already and I wasn't online for a few hours...

In other words you're an anti-Sylvanas hater and you're salty that your faction leaders fell for her plan and got nothing out of it, even though both sides of the battle and cinematic prove it unequivocally. Gotcha...

No. In other words - I have eyes and my brain works totally fine, I clearly saw horde running away and losing that battle, so yeah. Gotcha...

you say it yourself, just because you lose a battle doesnt mean you lose the war. So all your rambling is pretty much meaningless the horde controls the contenent with most of the azerite on it and instead of attacking our main capital they attacked lordaeron which doesnt have much strategic value. So take the "win" i guess alliance.

Why are peopel still debating about the war/grand scheme/whatever. We're here just to discuss that battle ONLY.

if this is the case then losing the city isn't a "loss" as it was according to plan.

If a boxer realize in the middle of the fight that he's going to lose and he decide to ran away from the ring does that mean he won because it was his plan to run away(and everything went according to his plan - he retreated)? No.

If Jaina wasnt deus ex bullshit, ally would lose.
btw pyrrhic victory

I wouldn't even call it a victory at all. But yeah. At least you got the point.

It's not about being a Sylvanas fan. It's about stating facts as they are. I'm an Alliance player, and I think Sylvanas has won.
The Alliance came with the intentions of seizing Lordaeron, and killing/capturing Sylvanas. With the castle blight-bombed to oblivion, and Sylvanas having escaped, everything the Alliance set out to do failed, which meant all those hundreds of deaths in the war were for nothing.
So, yes, the Horde did win the Battle for Lordaeron.
And it killed hundreds of soldiers, breaking the Alliance's ranks.
Winning or losing a fight doesn't have to end with one of the parties dying. The Alliance wanted Sylvanas and Lordaeron. They ended up with neither, only a bucket-load of casualties. That constitutes a 'you lose'.
Seems like you don't know much about strategy. The Alliance had two goals. None was attained. The Alliance suffered heavy, heavy losses for nothing. That means they lost.

First of all, how can you know that I don't know much about strategy? That's not even the part of the thread. lol
Stop with this "war"/"grand scheme" things. We're here to discuss only that Battle for the Undercity, which Horde lost. And that's all.
It doesn't mean who wanted to do what. Sylvanas didn't kill Alliance leaders, Sylvanas didn't stop Alliance from attacking the undercity. She lost the city. Even if that was her intetions, it was because she knew she doesn't have any chances. No one would use blight in their own city if they knew they could won the battle, that's obvious.

Copying myself: If a boxer realize in the middle of the fight that he's going to lose and he decide to ran away from the ring does that mean he won because it was his plan to run away(and everything went according to his plan - he retreated)? No.

Well...ooookaaaaaay? Join the legion of people having enough of xyz

Horde lost UC, Aliance lost Darnassus. Tit for tat and all that

Exactly.

It's pretty much nil/nil, really - the War of Thorns concluded with no conclusive winner as the Horde failed to take Teldrassil and is forced to destroy it, galvanizing as opposed to dividing the Alliance. The Battle of Lordaeron ends with no conclusive winner, either; the Horde knowingly sacrifices the Undercity by turning it into a death-trap for the Alliance leadership, but a set of 11th-hour saves by Jaina nullifies that victory. Anything either faction took from these two battles was very definitely a tertiary objective - not anything that would quantify "victory."

That's the point of this thread.

[Deleted]

Both sides lost, Alliance only survived because of Jaina and they didn't secure the city. Nobody really came away from that as a winner, though Blizzard for sure have set up Sylvanas as a villian and she will be killed so Saurfang can be made warchief... Hooray for the merry go round of warchiefs.

Alliance secured northern EK with this battle. The area might be filled with blight but that can be cleansed. In the end Alliance gained a lot of territory. Arathi, Hillsbrad, Silverpine, Tirisfal. Gilneas is secured again aswell. What did the Horde gain with Teldrassil? Ashenvale and Darkshore.

[mickybrighteyes]

the look of someone who went to a football game but didn't realize it wasn't NFL.

tldr:

it's not a win, nor is it a loss. Horde objectives almost entirely achieved and alliance danced to the warchief's tune.

[Icydemon]

Well, Sylvanas was willing to cede the Undercity from the start of the War of the Thorns. We know her plan was always to secure control of Kalimdor and put an ocean between the Horde and Alliance. She just laid a trap to kill as many Alliance soldiers and as much of the Alliance high command as she could before abandoning the city. And, again, that was always obviously the plan, given that the entire flow of the battle was designed to funnel the Alliance forces into confined spaces and then unleash the Blight.

Of course, she lost some of her own troops, and Saurfang, in the process, so whether the gambit really paid off or not is hard to gauge. Especially with Jaina's surprise appearance.

Honestly, Sylvanas's military strategy in this war has been far superior compared to that of the Alliance, so far. Anduin's attack against Lordaeron Keep was essentially a straight forward siege and would have failed outright if Jaina hadn't showed up. Even after that he led his troops into an ambush in the Ruins and was only bailed out by the surprise appearance of Alleria and the void elves, and then walked into another trap in the throne room where Jaina again bailed him out.

oh wow. points have been made

[Ielenia]

First of all, how can you know that I don't know much about strategy? That's not even the part of the thread. lol

It's relevant since we're discussing war.

Stop with this "war"/"grand scheme" things. We're here to discuss only that Battle for the Undercity, which Horde lost. And that's all.

The Horde did not lose that war. Especially since the fight has gone exactly as Sylvanas wanted. The only "lost" the Horde suffered was that Sylvanas' trap did not work and the leaders of the Alliance are alive. The rest? It has gone exactly as she wanted: she denied the Alliance in their attempt to take Lordaeron by blighting the entire castle, and denied Alliance her capture.

Copying myself: If a boxer realize in the middle of the fight that he's going to lose and he decide to ran away from the ring does that mean he won because it was his plan to run away(and everything went according to his plan - he retreated)? No.

You cannot compare a boxing match, which is full of rules that agreed upon by both sides, to war, which has basically no rules at all. But here's the thing: if your enemy comes with the intention to capture something, or someone, and you deny them their objective(s), it doesn't matter if you retreated. You won.

[Culex]

The tears, so delicious.

[Skulltaker]

the look of someone who went to a football game but didn't realize it wasn't NFL.

tldr:

it's not a win, nor is it a loss. Horde objectives almost entirely achieved and alliance danced to the warchief's tune.

Yeah. And all of the Allies danced to Hitlers tune in April 1945. Damn, his genius strategy worked even better then Sylvanas's.

It's relevant since we're discussing war.


The Horde did not lose that war. Especially since the fight has gone exactly as Sylvanas wanted. The only "lost" the Horde suffered was that Sylvanas' trap did not work and the leaders of the Alliance are alive. The rest? It has gone exactly as she wanted: she denied the Alliance in their attempt to take Lordaeron by blighting the entire castle, and denied Alliance her capture.


You cannot compare a boxing match, which is full of rules that agreed upon by both sides, to war, which has basically no rules at all. But here's the thing: if your enemy comes with the intention to capture something, or someone, and you deny them their objective(s), it doesn't matter if you retreated. You won.

No, it didn't. She WANTED a huge number of Alliance troops to be trapped in the city when she unleashes the blight, but Anduin drew all of them back beyond the wall befor they faced Saurfang. She WANTED the Alliance Leadership to die by the blight, which also didn't happen. And, newsflash, the Alliance still controls Lordaeron. Check Horde mission tables in BfA; they will tell you that the Alliance occupies Lordaeron, while your war effort supports pockets of resistance. It will also tell you that the Alliance pushes the Horde out of Darkshore deep into Ashenvale, and that the Alliance sets up a foothold in Durotar. So, how did that work out for her, exactly?

You know what else she managed? Strengthening the Unity of the Alliance. And you know what she also managed? Widening the divide in the Horde. She has lost on all accounts.

[Wyrt]

Well, the Horde never intended to keep the city, their objective was to wipe out as much of the Alliance army as possible before retreating. I'd say they accomplished that.

The Alliance on the other hand failed at everything they set out to do.

[Jastall]

^This.

It's only a loss if you assume, against everything that's been written in A Good War, that their intention was to defend the city, rather than evacuate it.

It's only a loss if you believe that the Horde planned to keep it, when from the start there were massive bombs in the Undercity 'cause they'd planned on destroying it the whole time.

In short: It's only a loss if you're not paying attention to the story being told. Undercity was abandoned by the Horde, not conquered by the Alliance. It was a death trap from the start.

The trap part would imply the Horde did not risk or commit much to the fight, when they did. The blight bomb was the last resort, but not the ideal scenario, which was to defeat the Alliance in the fight prior to it and almost happened were it not for Jaina. The Horde threw a lot of bodies into this fight (including very young soldiers like Zehkan), all the important faction leaders were there, and all the Horde's best assets were used; the Azerite tank, more Blight than you can shake a stick at, powerful champions such as Saurfang leading charges, and of course the final bomb. All this did not stop the city from being lost, the bomb merely ensured the Alliance could not fully enjoy the spoils of their victory.

Prior to the battle, the Horde controls the Undercity (which is, on top of the Warchief's capital, a prominent center of Forsaken research and industry) and the surrounding territories. After the battle, it does not, and the Alliance starts conquering Horde lands, putting pressure on the Forsaken which have to be relieved by the busy Horde war machine, hence the Warfront. The Horde also loses a number of soldiers themselves both to the Alliance and their own commander, and a prominent general and racial leader is captured, while the Alliance loses no NPC of significance but certainly suffers more casualties. However, since they push in Lordaeron and open a second front in the Barrens, it appears their losses were not crippling.

It is a Pyhrric victory for the Alliance, one that Anduin's incompetence almost jeopardized several times over and that Sylvanas's plans ensured was as costly as possible, and they wouldn't be able to withstand many like it. But it remains, nonetheless, a victory in both the tactical and strategic sense.

[Eazy]

the look of someone who went to a football game but didn't realize it wasn't NFL.
tldr:
it's not a win, nor is it a loss. Horde objectives almost entirely achieved and alliance danced to the warchief's tune.

Horde lost the city. Case closed. I don't even think what's to discuss here...

It's relevant since we're discussing war.

No, we don't. I made this thread and I'm discussing only that one battle.

The Horde did not lose that war. Especially since the fight has gone exactly as Sylvanas wanted. The only "lost" the Horde suffered was that Sylvanas' trap did not work and the leaders of the Alliance are alive. The rest? It has gone exactly as she wanted: she denied the Alliance in their attempt to take Lordaeron by blighting the entire castle, and denied Alliance her capture.

It's not like she wanted it.
She wanted to destroy Alliance army, but she didn't.
She wanted Alliance to retreat, but they didn't.
She wanted to kill Alliance heroes, but she didn't.

The only thing that went according to her plan was the evacuating plan. She lost, so she decided it'll be better to run away, so she did it - she ran away with the Horde.

You cannot compare a boxing match, which is full of rules that agreed upon by both sides, to war, which has basically no rules at all. But here's the thing: if your enemy comes with the intention to capture something, or someone, and you deny them their objective(s), it doesn't matter if you retreated. You won.

I'm comparing the motives of losers. Just because they decided to lose it doesn't mean they won, lol.
If you decide to lose, does that mean you win? Seriously?

And yes, it does matter if you retreat. You retreat only if you don't have any other options, she didn't have, she knew she was overwhelmed, so she decided to run away... because she lost that battle. She didn't have any chances.

Why she didn't let them capture the city and used Blight that even forbids the Horde from entering? Because she didn't want Alliance to win, but that doesn't mean she won. She lost the Udnercity and had to retreat. She wanted to save the city at the first try. Jaina just destroyed her strategic plan. Then she thought that if she cannot have it, then no one can. So she just took the necessary sacrifice - LOSING the city.

[Malikath]

It was a necessary sacrifice and a death trap for the Alliance. They have Jaina to thank for her mass bubblehearth otherwise their leadership would’ve been decimated.

Horde - 2
Alliance - 0

did you already fucking forget that anduin and genn were already outside of the area of the blight by the time jaina showed up?
no wonder you goldfish love sylvanus.

[eijin]

did you already fucking forget that anduin and genn were already outside of the area of the blight by the time jaina showed up?
no wonder you goldfish love sylvanus.

Forgetting the last video?

[mickybrighteyes]

Horde lost the city. Case closed. I don't even think what's to discuss here...

as per the plan.

the only thing not completed was anduin's death.

Again, OP, you're arguing a point that isn't part of the win conditions of the objectives.

[Malikath]

Forgetting the last video?

nope, genn and anduin has cleared the initial use of the blight by the time jaina shows up on her boat.
they would of never gotten into the lordaeron throne room unless jaina had shown up.