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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    Your logic is flawed out of the gate.



    Genocide requires the intent to wipe out a people, culture, or way of life.

    Sylvanas's intent was to commit a massacre and force the Alliance into a war.

    Heinous and despicable, evil as the day is long in Alaskan Summer, but not Genocide.
    Her intent when she ordered the burning was to cause a massive destruction of especially night elvish lives and to drive the night elves out of their ancestral homelands and continent permanently. Considering that the destruction also targeted the Temple of Elune, the headquarter of the entire elune religion, it also could be argued that she aimed for an irreperable damage on night elvish culture.

  2. #82
    In before a Sylvanas Tactical Defense member angrily explains how you're wrong, Aucald. Alternately, despite repeatedly using the UN standard to attempt to prove her innocent, it will now be attacked as irrelevant to WoW.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  3. #83
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    No its not genocide

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiav View Post
    because writers started to project our 2018 modern world social justice views into a video game.
    This is a bullshit argument. All writers are projecting their world view and moral positions into works of fiction. Especially in terms of historical or historical-inspired works of fiction, it would be bordering to condoning primitive moral standarts and acts if they wouldn't judge it according to their personal moral code.

  5. #85
    Also people should note it's more than just Darnassus, it's equivalent to destroying all of Mulgor and the tauren who live there as well as Thunderbluff to try to wipe them out. It's clearly genocide, referenced in book as well. I don't know why people pretend this is anything other than that, other than Sylvanas apologists I guess?

  6. #86
    Epic! Oakshana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    Genocide requires the intent to wipe out a people, culture, or way of life.

    Sylvanas's intent was to commit a massacre and force the Alliance into a war.

    Heinous and despicable, evil as the day is long in Alaskan Summer, but not Genocide.
    gen·o·cide
    /ˈjenəˌsīd/

    noun
    the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

    ...

    Ok... with that definition out of the way, I agree with Steampunkette in that it wasn't Sylvanas's intent to commit genocide. She was making a strategic strike on a main city of the Alliance.

    What Hitler attempted to do to the Jews was an intended genocide. He made a deliberate attempt to wipe them out as a people. What america did in Japan by dropping the Atomic bomb on Nagasawa and Hiroshima, regardless of how many died, was NOT a genocide. It was a decisive strike. For good or ill.

  7. #87
    Yes, for every reason Aucald said.

    A quick google search and half a brain can tell you the burning of Teldrassil meets the conditions to be considered genocide. Contrary to popular belief, it is not just hunting down every single member of a group to exterminate them.

    Not to mention, the lore considers it a genocide. It really isn't up for debate, some people are just delusional.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oakshana View Post
    What Hitler attempted to do to the Jews was an intended genocide. He made a deliberate attempt to wipe them out as a people. What america did in Japan by dropping the Atomic bomb on Nagasawa and Hiroshima, regardless of how many died, was NOT a genocide. It was a decisive strike. For good or ill.
    The difference between those bombings and the burning of Teldrassil is the percentage of the population that was killed. Elegy makes it pretty clear that a huge portion of the night elves, potentially a majority, were killed.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Oakshana View Post
    Ok... with that definition out of the way, I agree with Steampunkette in that it wasn't Sylvanas's intent to commit genocide. She was making a strategic strike on a main city of the Alliance.
    Not really, she already basically took the tree, she just wanted to exterminate the residents inside as quickly as she could. In the book she also gets shaman to cast winds to make it burn faster. Nothing really strategic about it, since it was pretty much taken at that point it was purely for murdering the night elves.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Izalla View Post
    Could be, but if literally no one listened to her it's not like she would have killed them all. The horde is supposed to be about honour whether it ever actually has been or not so even if Sylvanas deserves 90% of the blame, they still followed her orders. I know lots of people complained about Garrosh taking the fall for every bad thing the horde did while he was in charge, so I assume no one is excited at the idea of Sylvanas shouldering all the blame for what has been happening under her rule.
    The forsaken are part of the horde and are not about honor at all. That's an orc/tauren thing. Undead, Blood Elves, Nightbourne, and maybe even trolls are more direct.
    "Those who dance appear insane to those who can't hear the music." ~~ George Carlin


  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by OIS View Post
    Who came up with the word genocide in Azeroth? IRL it's a made up word because some guy wanted to name... you know, genocides. Its use in Warcraft is relatively recent if memory serves me right, it was first used in War Crimes by a night elf(Tyrande), now this. I don't recall anything being called explicitly a genocide before. The game didn't call orcs burning Stormwind or the Scourge killing high elves a genocide, for instance. So why are we now using this word all of a sudden?
    Because it's a word used to describe a specific act. Why do we use the word 'City' IRL? Because someone wanted to name.. You know. Cities. ...But hey, look here! -The word 'City' has roots in french, and even further back in latin!

    ..But... But those languages don't exist in WoW. -And yet... They still use the word, to describe the thing we know it to be?

    ...Do you get my point? It's a thing. It doesn't matter that it wasn't used before, it's being used now to describe Sylvanas's actions.

    Because that's what words do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jiav View Post
    because writers started to project our 2018 modern world social justice views into a video game.
    ..Ah. Yes. Modern, 'social justice', a concept that clearly originated in the 40's, along with the term genocide. Please, then, do go on to explain how the writers used to have an established system of morality and ethics for the Horde that's been wildly different from our own?

    Because they don't. There are some groups that do things you could put in that category, but.. Would you guess what? They're all framed as villainous, to one degree or another. The writers have always written from a mindset of modern morality.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Clone View Post
    You will find plenty of Horde players that agree it's a terrible act, and only take issue with inaccurate use of the word.
    Right, hence the use of the term "die-hard" in my post. It's splitting hairs on a certain level but worthwhile to differentiate, but the glut of the discussion usually devolves into using the semantics for weaponizing by piss-babies on both sides.
    Last edited by Vakir; 2018-08-12 at 02:07 AM.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    I am very glad the UN does not share your opinion ;-)
    When is basically any military force that hits any enemy structure and incurs collateral during war time getting held accountable for genocide?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    Two people were fired. Yet the focus has been squared solely on one of them because.... Vagina?

  13. #93
    Aucald coming through once again. Although incoming posts ignoring it now because something something the UN is bad or something.

    I never got that far because trying to defend it by comparing it to real life because that always felt like whataboutism and/or trying to distract from the subject, especially when the actual word 'genocide' is used in the novella.

    But hey, if somebody bothers to do so and it comes out to showing what we all knew, that Teldrassil was genocide, then why not celebrate someone else's research!

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirKickBan View Post
    Because it's a word used to describe a specific act. Why do we use the word 'City' IRL? Because someone wanted to name.. You know. Cities. ...But hey, look here! -The word 'City' has roots in french, and even further back in latin!

    ..But... But those languages don't exist in WoW. -And yet... They still use the word, to describe the thing we know it to be?

    ...Do you get my point? It's a thing. It doesn't matter that it wasn't used before, it's being used now to describe Sylvanas's actions.

    Because that's what words do.




    ..Ah. Yes. Modern, 'social justice', a concept that clearly originated in the 40's, along with the term genocide. Please, then, do go on to explain how the writers used to have an established system of morality and ethics for the Horde that's been wildly different from our own?

    Because they don't. There are some groups that do things you could put in that category, but.. Would you guess what? They're all framed as villainous, to one degree or another. The writers have always written from a mindset of modern morality.
    The writer describes it as genocide because they want to pull emotions from you. Defining an act of war as genocide is stupid or almost every military act would be held under the Geneva convention as genocide.

    Also Gen Greymane isn't considered evil by the Alliance, and has systematically attempted to destroy the Forsaken every chance he has gotten. He even prevented them from getting a way to create more Forsaken.

    This was an attack on the Alliance and a Military stronghold, not an attempt to kill every nightelf. It's clear her goal isn't to kill Nelfs, because she says "Burn the Tree", if he goal was to kill Civilians she would have said "Burn the Civilians". Maybe she didn't think the leaders of the Nelfs would abandon their people in their time of need.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    Two people were fired. Yet the focus has been squared solely on one of them because.... Vagina?

  15. #95
    The Lightbringer Izalla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HavokHeart View Post
    The forsaken are part of the horde and are not about honor at all. That's an orc/tauren thing. Undead, Blood Elves, Nightbourne, and maybe even trolls are more direct.
    I'm talking core original Thrall horde ideals. The fact that the forsaken aren't aligned with that is kinda the whole point of the Saurfang/Sylvanas conflict, old Thrall horde versus Sylvanas led horde.
    give up dat booty
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  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    I've only seen horde players say any thing of the short. being so far alliance or horde is silly but the alliance is still morally far better then the horde in pretty much every way.
    Maybe you should look at the link in the quote that you quoted then.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    Did you ever play the Pathfinder Roleplaying game?
    No, but it sounds fun.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    "There is another person on the other end of the chat screen. They're our friends; they're our brothers and sisters; they're our sons and daughters. Let's take a stand to reject hate and harassment, and let's redouble our efforts to be kind and respectful to one another, and let's remind the world what the gaming community is really all about."

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  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    if she is part of he horde, and leader of the horde, she also committed...
    Just following orders is not an excuse.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    Your logic is flawed out of the gate.



    Genocide requires the intent to wipe out a people, culture, or way of life.

    Sylvanas's intent was to commit a massacre and force the Alliance into a war.

    Heinous and despicable, evil as the day is long in Alaskan Summer, but not Genocide.
    The entire point of the burning is to cull the night elves so hard they "give up hope". It is pretty obviously genocide.

  19. #99
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologist View Post
    Just following orders is not an excuse.
    she didn't follow she ordered, and i didn't say it was an excuse, just saying it was her fault

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    You heard it here, folks, Blizzard is no longer the authority on the lore that they write and own. Their statements are only canon when new head writer Mehrunes decrees it so.

    Man, and I thought we were getting a bad precedent with out of game overriding in game...
    It's Mehrunes. The guy's got his head so far up Sylvanas's rotting colon that he can tell what she had for dinner the night before Arthas came to Quel'Thalas. Anything that supports his arguments is gospel, anything that shows Sylvanas as the omnicidal maniac Before the Storm, Elegy, A Good War, the Windrunner comic, the Sylvanas Warbringers animation, and the BFA prepatch has obviously painted her out to be is fanfiction or headcanon (because let's not get bogged down with silly things like what headcanon actually means, being a logical extrapolation fans draw from works to fill in the blanks that become popularly-accepted amongst fans, usually for subjects the canon doesn't really bog itself down with like a satellite character's love life or romantic inclinations).

    You get used to it after a while and realize it's not worth the time it takes out of one's limited lifespan to engage him directly. It's like trying to train a sloth to nut on command: a huge waste of time and you always walk away wondering what the fuck you're doing with your life.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2018-08-12 at 03:01 PM. Reason: Received Infraction
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



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