What does SV bring to the table?

[Funky Kong]

In terms of utility or survivability, what is SV's niche exactly?
Traps: same as the other hunter specs, aside from Steel which needs to be talented
Mobility: same as the others again. Gap closer but overall lower uptime on many mobile fights.
Buffs: same.
Survivability: Same armor as SV/BM. Same stamina as SV/BM. Anemic health regen from Mastery, but since the spec is melee it'll eat more damage anyways.

All that aside, SV doesn't have its own identity outside of equipping a 2 hander. Literally all of its single target abilities except Raptor Strike are shared with SV/BM.

It's sad cause I find it the most fun, but it'll be hard to justify bringing one to a raid when the other specs have the same tools and take less damage.

[ImpTaimer]

You're looking at it the wrong way. In BFA all the tri-dps classes bring the same things regardless of spec. This is mostly true for all other classes also. This expansion is probably more homogenized than WoD in terms of utility.

The important thing is Hunters lost battle rez so there's no reason to bring a hunter outside gimmick fights that they can cheese.

[ydraw]

The important thing is Hunters lost battle rez so there's no reason to bring a hunter outside gimmick fights that they can cheese.

Nobody was bringing hunters to raids because of battle res before, it will make absolutely no difference.

[ImpTaimer]

Nobody was bringing hunters to raids because of battle res before, it will make absolutely no difference.

Who is this nobody you're referring to and why is raiding the only thing that matters? Is it the same nobody that doesn't bring warlocks, death knights, or druids? Stop pulling non shit out of your ass and presenting it as facts.

Even warriors secured a spot in groups/raids just for having a buff now. For how long who knows especially with professions in the past being able to provide (weaker) copies of class buffs.

[Schrenk212]

Unless you're in a top world guild, which I doubt you are, it doesn't matter what you bring to raids.

[ImpTaimer]

Unless you're in a top world guild, which I doubt you are, it doesn't matter what you bring to raids.

Yes it does. It always does. If it didn't, it wouldn't. If anything top guilds shouldn't be emulated because they cheese and exploit. The devs should simply balance the game better. If more people actually bothered to bring or play low/non viability class/specs besides getting hard-carried then devs might bother tuning classes better.

If nobody plays X spec then devs aren't gonna bother. They're just gonna write off as "not enough data/player sims to justify". This has systematically been the problem since Cata with B-team devs.

[Deleted]

It's sad cause I find it the most fun, but it'll be hard to justify bringing one to a raid when the other specs have the same tools and take less damage.

Why do you have to justify it? If you deal comparable amounts of damage you have all the justification you need

[the boar]

melee take more damage? why are you standing in the fire lol. in my experience melee takes less damage and has less mechanics to deal with in general. lost count of how many fights are just a punching bag with some occasional movement for melee. honestly if bfa raids are as boring as legion was as melee i'll spec ranged just to have something to do. hell only reason i was melee in legion for so long was dh momo spec giving me something to keep me busy :P back to zzz when it was just nemesis

[Deleted]

Yes it does. It always does. If it didn't, it wouldn't. If anything top guilds shouldn't be emulated because they cheese and exploit. The devs should simply balance the game better. If more people actually bothered to bring or play low/non viability class/specs besides getting hard-carried then devs might bother tuning classes better.

If nobody plays X spec then devs aren't gonna bother. They're just gonna write off as "not enough data/player sims to justify". This has systematically been the problem since Cata with B-team devs.

It really doesnt matter.

[Emerald Archer]

Who is this nobody you're referring to and why is raiding the only thing that matters? Is it the same nobody that doesn't bring warlocks, death knights, or druids? Stop pulling non shit out of your ass and presenting it as facts.

No mythic raiding guild with a brain was bring hunter because of Rez. And MM was the M+ spec, which did not bring rez.

Might be your turn to present facts.

A big part of what makes hunters desired in raids, is their ability to do the bin jobs without losing as much dmg as other ranged dps, while also having an immunity that can be moved with while it's active.

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It really doesnt matter.

Unless you're in a top world guild, which I doubt you are, it doesn't matter what you bring to raids.

To you guys it doesn't matter. But even if a guild isn't a top guild, more optimal comps will cut down progression time.

You can be world 10th, 100th, 200th, 4000th. If you have a more optimal comp, and the players play those specs equally to what they did the specs prior, they will progress faster. And pretty much everyone wants that.

[Tehterokkar]

The only advantage of SV is that it is melee.

There are very few fights where that is relevant. In Antorus, Aggramar is the only fight where SV is better than BM/MM. Hunters were benched on Aggra mostly because they didn't contribute to add CCs and cluttered the range camp(=mostly there because your guild had nobody else to take). Plus having the worst survivability of all the classes didn't help(which is now fixed with tenacity pets being super good).

[Deleted]

You can be world 10th, 100th, 200th, 4000th. If you have a more optimal comp, and the players play those specs equally to what they did the specs prior, they will progress faster. And pretty much everyone wants that.

Honestly, no - I don't think that's true. At least not "pretty much everyone" There might be a high percentage that wants that - or is out for just - but there are just as many who don't give a damn as long as there is progress.
And the class, spec or melee/range balance is the last thing I'd look for when you can't progress any further - I'll certainly not ask for someone to reroll something because "we have to many melees" - or whatever. Asking a dude to switch from SV to BM/MM if he dislikes that spec is the same as asking a rogue to switch to a mage when he doesn't want to.

As long as DPS numbers are comparable and not a fraction of what others do, it doesn't matter.

[Sim]

The only advantage of SV is that it is melee.

There are very few fights where that is relevant. In Antorus, Aggramar is the only fight where SV is better than BM/MM. Hunters were benched on Aggra mostly because they didn't contribute to add CCs and cluttered the range camp(=mostly there because your guild had nobody else to take). Plus having the worst survivability of all the classes didn't help(which is now fixed with tenacity pets being super good).

Did no one in your guild know how to use Ice Trap, Tar Trap or Concussive Shot?

[Emerald Archer]

Honestly, no - I don't think that's true. At least not "pretty much everyone" There might be a high percentage that wants that - or is out for just - but there are just as many who don't give a damn as long as there is progress.
And the class, spec or melee/range balance is the last thing I'd look for when you can't progress any further - I'll certainly not ask for someone to reroll something because "we have to many melees" - or whatever. Asking a dude to switch from SV to BM/MM if he dislikes that spec is the same as asking a rogue to switch to a mage when he doesn't want to.

As long as DPS numbers are comparable and not a fraction of what others do, it doesn't matter.

I'm not sure if you misunderstood what I was trying to say, or being extremely nit picky. I'm not saying everyone cares enough to min max their roles, or care who they invite to the guild. I'm saying *PRETTY* much everyone (not everyone, but the vast majority) given the choice between say 41 wipes to kill a boss, and 39, they'd pick 39.

I was merely saying people want faster prog. Not that they'd do anything about it. But that the mentality should be understandable.

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Did no one in your guild know how to use Ice Trap, Tar Trap or Concussive Shot?

You never did mythic aggramar did you?

[Tehterokkar]

Did no one in your guild know how to use Ice Trap, Tar Trap or Concussive Shot?

Tar trap is bad, small radius and it overrides other slows. Also most guilds had a BDK handling the adds, so they had their own DnD slow if they felt it was necessary. I have never been asked to slow trap the adds in my guild.

ST CC could have been done by other classes who had other utility(eg. monk paralysis who also brought Ring of Peace or Rogue Blind who have the best survivability).

Yes, I was in on Aggra progress and was in charge of ST CCing an add in intermission, but we had plenty of other specs who could do so too.

[Bodakane]

I don't understand this way of thinking....

It has the same damage and utility as other hunter specs, and most importantly IT IS FUN.....but you can't see why you'd bring it?

[Deleted]

I'm not sure if you misunderstood what I was trying to say, or being extremely nit picky. I'm not saying everyone cares enough to min max their roles, or care who they invite to the guild. I'm saying *PRETTY* much everyone (not everyone, but the vast majority) given the choice between say 41 wipes to kill a boss, and 39, they'd pick 39.

I was merely saying people want faster prog. Not that they'd do anything about it. But that the mentality should be understandable.

But that's not really an argument in this discussion though. You might as well say that people prefer 50gold instead of 5gold. Yet hardly anyone will actually care enough to change or deny someone something just so that they get the 50g. So why even make that statement? I don't understand why you'd even mention it then.

And that's what this thread is basically about. He is looking for justification to bring SV into a raid. When damage (which in other words is "playing on the same level") is all the justification SV needs due to it's already versatile skillset. It's not about being "better" than X, it's about being roughly equal to X - which is the truth for all classes and specs, without exception

[Vofka]

Nothing. It's a meme spec made for the sake of the class f*ntasy. There are literally zero reasons to go melee when you can be ranged.

[Emerald Archer]

So why even make that statement?

"But that the mentality should be understandable."

It was in relation to the people I was quoting. People saying picking optimal classes doesn't matter. Well it does, it speeds up your progression, which is something almost everyone wants. But not everyone, in fact most people, don't care enough to do so. Which is completely fine. But that doesn't mean that optimal specs don't matter or don't have an effect on progression speed. And that they shouldn't negate the opinion of anyone who DOES care about that.

[Bepples]

OP: You're 100% right. It brings nothing. Survival is BM but worse.

There has been a lot of marketing for Survival on the forums since the 8.0 prepatch just like there was in the 7.0 prepatch. Look past it and realise people are just overselling the spec because they are desperate for it to reach the same level of familiarity and acceptance as the other 2 Hunter specs.