Metzen Interview about Fandom and Toxicity

[Relapses]

But you really think there is absolutely no validity behind fans criticism of fandoms that are going to shit because of corporate ignorance of why those fandoms were popular in the first place? Star Wars in its current form has lost everything. Many people who were great fans of the franchise will not ever trust that its current owners can do anything good with it. After watching ep 7 and hearing how stupid creators of ep 8 were acting about it (muh feminism and diversity uber alles) I didn't bother to go to the cinema to watch the latest episode. I will not go to the director or any other creator. I will vote with my wallet. But I cannot pretend that I am not extremely saddened that such a great franchise was bastardized so much. Warcraft is not that far yet and its obvious the game is more than only the story. But there are worrying symptoms that have already destroyed few other fandoms.

And well, if someone doesn't really do that great of a job as an artist they personally for their own good should rethink their life choices. Sometimes we make mistakes and it's good to reflect on them and maybe do some changes. Some criticism will be toxic but the same goes for the defenders. But all criticism and all the defense cannot be brushed off because some people cannot control their emotions. And in my personal view the attitude of Blizzard is currently toxic in its own way giving how offended they act about people having a strong emotional reaction from something that only a very naive person would not expect to cause a strong emotional reaction.

The bottom line is that when you encounter a person that is emotional about something blaming them for that is pointless. You either let that person be or if you care about the issue you actually try to figure out what is that person's issue. I mean the second option is actually hard but that's why we have option one.

Being emotionally invested and losing sight of rationality due to emotional investment is why this conversation seems to elicit so much discussion. Where this line is drawn seems to be proportional to said emotional investment so there's a lot of personal conjecture here. Everybody's moral compass is going to differ, as well, which is why we've seen such frequently polarizing opinions being shifted about in this thread.

Personally, I side with Metzen and believe that fandoms have a tendency to overstate flaws. Star Wars: TLJ is a great example because despite being almost universally reviled by people who identify with the fandom, both critics and audiences were either ambivalent or viewed the movie in a positive light. (It received an 'A' from CinemaScore.)

This doesn't mean I think artists are somehow above reproach or that they should ignore negative feedback, just that the hivemind from fandoms can often exaggerate things to an extent that it goes from constructive into outright inflammatory. The fact that forums are natural echo chambers also tends to amplify the rhetoric.

[Deleted]

the really sad thing about all the recent backlash instead of the perfectly valid concerns being addressed
the threats etc, took centre stage.everything else being kicked into the long grass.

How convenient it's almost like it wasn't their MO that's been used before...........

[Doctor Funkenstein]

His words would have more merit if Blizzard themselves didn't constantly troll, mock, and insult their players, too. Hell, the April Fools "jokes" in recent years have been little more other than that, as opposed to how they were in the earlier years.

And sure, threatening someone's life and doing other stupid shit like that is inexcusable. That, however, does not mean people shouldn't be criticized when they do really awful shit, especially in a consumer product. People are literally paying them massive amounts of money to make a fun, interesting, and sensible game. They're failing that at every turn. They deserve the criticism for it, too. Anyone who claims otherwise is a simpleton unworthy of being listened to; they're a big part of the problem in and of themselves.

[Relapses]

His words would have more merit if Blizzard themselves didn't constantly troll, mock, and insult their players, too. Hell, the April Fools "jokes" in recent years have been little more other than that, as opposed to how they were in the earlier years.

And sure, threatening someone's life and doing other stupid shit like that is inexcusable. That, however, does not mean people shouldn't be criticized when they do really awful shit, especially in a consumer product. People are literally paying them massive amounts of money to make a fun, interesting, and sensible game. They're failing that at every turn. They deserve the criticism for it, too. Anyone who claims otherwise is a simpleton unworthy of being listened to; they're a big part of the problem in and of themselves.

"You're an idiot if you don't agree that the game sucks," is hardly a compelling argument.

[yetgdhfgh]

If the internet was around back when the Nintendo/Sega war was raging i swear it would make Israel/Palestine war seem like a kiddies picnic.

Bottom line is us nerds will fight over any shit its just the internet has made it easier instead of what we used to have to do and that was to write in angry letters to videogame magazines we now can do it instantly over twitter and video game forums.

[SirCowdog]

I don't know how I missed this, but I want to respond to it now.

Really great artists should ignore criticism I think. Especially if they are pushing boundaries. They should do their art as cultural criticism generally advises artists to stay in their lane and not be too radical. Stravinsky didn't give one fuck about the on-site reviews to his Rite of Spring ballet score in 1913*. And that's the correct posture. Art is for the ages and it stands or falls on its own.

But that only applies to someone who is, at some point, defined or accepted as a "really great artist". What about all the failures who tried to push the boundaries but were actually just bad artists hiding behind the attempt? You can not self-proclaim greatness. That's just arrogance and hubris. It won't be until the test of time proves you one way or the other.

[therealbowser]

So far only people that say that are Alliance fans projecting.

Clearly...

[Toho]

Lol this is so hypocritical of him.

Didn't they bring a musician to Blizzcon who then proceeded to insult alliance players by calling them pedophiles, homophobic slurs and cunts?
And then they invite him back. AGAIN.

This is a pot calls the kettle black moment.

[thottstation]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/ne...justin-bieber/
A BRITISH teenager was sent dozens of terrifying death threats from jealous Justin Bieber fans after the Canadian popstar retweeted one of her messages.
Schoolgirl Courtney Barrasford, 15, took to Twitter to post a glowing review of his new album Believe Acoustic.
And she was stunned when 19-year-old Bieber reposted it for his 34 million followers – known as Beliebers – to see.
But many were outraged Courtney had caught his attention despite saying in her tweet that she was not usually a fan.
Others have tried for years to catch the Baby singer’s eye without success.

http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/cele...02-gje04k.html
A model who kissed Justin Bieber in his most recent music video has revealed she received death threats from the singer's crazed fans.
Xenia Deli, the Moldovan-born model who played Bieber's love interest in the video for his new song What Do You Mean? has said she "wasn't expecting" to be the target of so much online hate.


http://hollywoodlife.com/2011/01/03/...death-threats/
Selena Gomez Receiving Death Threats From Justin Bieber Fans After Kissing Photos Released
Here's a sample of the toxic fan's tweets:
“@selenagomez i hate you. son of a b-ch. little b--ch. I want to kill you. Die.” –BestyJBieber
“@selenagomez I’ll kill you I swear on GOD!!!! Let go @justinbieber he’s little….your f***ing bitch!!” –BellaLoxx
“@selenagomez if you’re in love with Justin, I will kill you.” –cuttaselena
“@selenagomez If you are the Girlfriend of Justin I will Kill you I HATE YOU :@ !!!” –ece_torres
“If @selenagomez breaks @justinbieber’s heart! I will not break her face! I will kill her without kindness! >:|” –iHugJBieber

I know the most popular game today is how fast you can denounce people in your own group to show the world how you are so much better compared to them... but for a few brief seconds, can we not act like this is exclusively a gamer thing?

[sam86]

They used to listen to feedback when they made raids that only catered to 5% of the playerbase and that was the entirety of a patch's content?

Yes, for example Illidan 'missing' in TBC we got overexpose of Lich King in wrath, when BT and MHJ became so easy that rogues and voidwalkers and druid bears got 101% dodge were tanking end-content raid bosses they went the opposite way with Sunwell (i'm pretty sure u can still find rogue tanking videos from the live servers out somewhere), when ppl complained about how roflstomp wrath hcs (let's 'forget' that loken had more kills than anyone else prior to 3.1, or how everyone dropped from HoR) were again went to extreme opposite in Cata, then nerfed it later, but then problems started
I think gamestop or ign who said that in their review : Cataclysm biggest problem was blaming its problems on half of community, which made basically half the game enemy to each other half
While I can't talk for sure about MoP, I can say safely that they started to ignore feedback from WoD forward, I named few incidents that did happen, again example everyone pointed out that artifact farming will be pita in beta and the worst since game ever introduced, guess what happened... it stayed exactly same, only to be 'fixed' a little in 7.3
If u know a single person who praised artifact points farming in beta then really show it to me, because i don't know a single one who did so, the 'best' is ppl who were cautious that it may be bad, and worst is ppl who flat out said it will be worst farming in entire game history, and it was indeed

Yes, and yes that is something to blame on Chris and the Developers, that Toxicity made them very rich men, you can't accept the good without the bad, there is a price to everything, and what it cost him is what he is complaining about.

hey he wants to enjoy all good and have nothing bad, reminds me - a lot - with celebrity 'complains' about private life, while literally 90% of earth population can't even dream of a life half as good as them

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If the internet was around back when the Nintendo/Sega war was raging i swear it would make Israel/Palestine war seem like a kiddies picnic

lol that maybe best comment, but also remember the nintendo/sonic very brutal campaign against each others ? they really went full war here

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Not liking a product gives you the right to complain about the product.

I complain about wow because i love it, warcraft is one if not biggest core part of my life, I consider my happiest memories (with s, many) during wow play, and wc3 too
I complain because i want wow to be better, but honestly i'm starting to feel that activision greed really spilled over blizzard in every little path
The day i stop complain about wow is the day i hate it so much that i'm willing to kill all ties with it, Metzen comment about 'if u don't like a director work, don't buy ticket' is the most stupid in all his words, what if u like director in general but he made a bad movie ?
warcraft for me is a big part of my childhood, adolescence and life in general, but imagine memorizing entire wow rpg books and lore, and then u find later they keep sh8tting on it, replacing it, making u feel all time u spend on learning it was useless, what should u feel ?
Wow biggest problem is they are chained by mmo format, wow was great but if u want to keep the game great they really need to kill wow and start again, i'd prefer wc4 but even a wow2 would still be great (and for few exps, not 14+ years)

[Doctor Amadeus]

hey he wants to enjoy all good and have nothing bad, reminds me - a lot - with celebrity 'complains' about private life, while literally 90% of earth population can't even dream of a life half as good as them

Yep, that and he isolates himself from criticism, anything that is negative isn't constructive BS, well part of that criticism was about the toxic nature of players they didn't want to do anything about as long as those subscriptions cleared the bank. The problem was Blizzard enabled and fed this attitude and behavior, so rather than the risk of being less successful and better quality, they ignored it until people finally grew away from it, and all that was left or drawn to were people who played, but were more casual.

Which is fine too, until eventually that poison started to help ruin that too.

[Anjerith]

Player toxicity is Not what made WoW popular or made Chris Metzen a "Rich" man. Toxic players ONLY drive the players who actually ARE making money for developers away. There is no merit to being a toxic player, so please don't go around trying to turn them into White Knights.

[Chappyzilla]

Constructive criticism is fine, its how people can better themselves. But there is never ever a reason to abuse someone over something as silly as a game, movie or story in general. You can not agree with the direction, that's fine, you can voice it, that's fine but you don't need to put them down or call them names, it is beyond childish.

I hated the last Jedi, its easily the worst movie I have ever seen but I never felt the need to hop on twitter and abuse the director, the actors or anyone else, I discussed it with my friends and partners and have decided not to pay to see any more star wars films.

[Archibalde]

Really great artists should ignore criticism I think. Especially if they are pushing boundaries. They should do their art as cultural criticism generally advises artists to stay in their lane and not be too radical. Stravinsky didn't give one fuck about the on-site reviews to his Rite of Spring ballet score in 1913*. And that's the correct posture. Art is for the ages and it stands or falls on its own.

Nobody becomes a "really great artist" by ignoring criticism. Different perspectives are what helps you grow as an artist. It doesn't mean you should apply every single critique you ever get, but you should at the very least consider why the person thinks that way. Even when you are pushing boundaries, you need to make sure you actually are pushing in the right direction. If you have a great message and it's getting lost in your presentation of it, someone's criticism can help you fine-tune your work to make it clearer.

If you are willing to let your art fall on its own because "haters gonna hate", you don't really care that much about it in the first place. There's a difference between refusing to dumb things down because you're not trying to appeal to a wider audience, and stubbornly going in the wrong direction because you think nobody's opinion matters as much as your own. If you're just doing art for yourself, there's no point in showing it to anyone else anyway. If you're going to try and show it, you should at least understand what audience you're targetting and be willing to listen to what they have to say about your piece.

[Mr chub]

Player toxicity is Not what made WoW popular or made Chris Metzen a "Rich" man. Toxic players ONLY drive the players who actually ARE making money for developers away. There is no merit to being a toxic player, so please don't go around trying to turn them into White Knights.

Well no... your wrong... they brought personality to servers and helped fill out the community. I never understood why people who dont like dealing with people and want everyone to act in a uniform way play mmos.

A world needs villiams more then it needs heros in fantasy.

[rrayy]

Namecalling isn't helpful either, it doesn't exactly put you on the good side.

It's not name calling when it describes those players behaviors.

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a person doesn't have to constantly remind others of what their opinion is. Clearly this is his opinion and don't think he was ever trying to establish it as fact.

And the group that get so invested in and argue about how a story isn't catered to their desire, I feel is probably a fairly minor crowd. They just tend to make a lot of noise and say the most outrageous things to garner attention.

But take note of how you are casually throwing him in that same category when all he was trying to state was that there are people with valid, constructive opinions that largely get ignored due to everyone lumping people together into the same toxic community, rather then realizing the some people are worth discussing topics with (even if it is all just fantasy and fan-fict, thats part of what makes it fun) and others you just should ignore.

But they aren't being lumped in. Any smart person can clearly see who is being referred to and can make a distinction.

AS for stating opinion as fact, it's about implied tone. "Star Wars is bad" is a statement. "I think Stars Wars is bad" is an opinion. When you say the former, you come off as stating your opinion as fact.

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And when it comes to SW Episode 8, the divide is very visible on Rotten Tomatoes - with critic score at 90 and audience score at 46 - of course the audience score is built from "anonymous Internet voters" who have possibility to vote multiple times, so it's ripe for "anger voting". But at the same time the last four Star Wars films have over double first weekend box office earnings compared to the previous Lucas-movie triplets. The new SW films are incredibly popular. The fandom anger echo chamber frequently uses lines like "many people think it's shit", "most people are angry" and "lot of people are disappointed" in their arguments - but those are always unidentifiable statements and by available, identifiable metrics most people seem to like them. So the "public outrage" really boils down to vocal minority.

One has to be careful when comparing box offices. There was almost 15 years between Episodes III and VII. Inflation plays a significant role in the difference. So, while the money made is double, tickets sold is probably far less than double.

[Thegy]

This is why I refuse to call myself a “gamer” despite the fact that I play video games. Gamers like to make themselves out to be virtuous, but most of them are angry and dangerous. They think because they play video games with stories in them, that they are somehow well versed in literature or think they are smart or some shit.

We saw it with Bioshock when every gamer throught he was smart and educated because he parroted the “it’s like Atlas Shrugged”...

People who play games a lot are actually pretty mentally unstable.

Sociopathic i’d say, actually

[PlazaPlaza]

This is why I refuse to call myself a “gamer” despite the fact that I play video games. Gamers like to make themselves out to be virtuous, but most of them are angry and dangerous. They think because they play video games with stories in them, that they are somehow well versed in literature or think they are smart or some shit.

We saw it with Bioshock when every gamer throught he was smart and educated because he parroted the “it’s like Atlas Shrugged”...

People who play games a lot are actually pretty mentally unstable.

Sociopathic i’d say, actually

That's maybe the kind of people in your area or some people you are close with? The most who I know calling themself gamers are just random mature people with a house, solid jobs and some have kids around. On a event you see ofcourse the most absurd people around but thats imo a small percentage, the same counts for particular gameforum like MMO-Champ. You won't notice 'Normal' gamers because they act and look like random normal people instead of freaks and out of the box people (Hey, people need to do whatever they like, I agree with that 100%).

It is the same with gay or lesbian people, 95% of these people you won't notice anything but on an event you see extreme people around and everyone is like: 'ohh all the gay and lesbian people are like that'.

The same for Muslims, christians or any fucking single group, religion, any sort of interest etc.

This was not an attack, not at all.

[Yaney]

People (developers especially) need to learn what Internet is apparently, then what criticism is. Yes on Internet it has very often toxic forms, however it's still criticisim. When faced with choice of saying "i think you need to improve w/e you're doing", most people on Internet will say "omg, you s**k", that is the magic of Internet, if people think that kind of behavior is toxic, maybe they shouldn't be on the Internet. Like, developers, story writers etc, have no need to interact with community. That is the role of community managers.

[Thegy]

That's maybe the kind of people in your area or some people you are close with? The most who I know calling themself gamers are just random mature people with a house, solid jobs and some have kids around. On a event you see ofcourse the most absurd people around but thats imo a small percentage, the same counts for particular gameforum like MMO-Champ. You won't notice 'Normal' gamers because they act and look like random normal people instead of freaks and out of the box people (Hey, people need to do whatever they like, I agree with that 100%).

It is the same with gay or lesbian people, 95% of these people you won't notice anything but on an event you see extreme people around and everyone is like: 'ohh all the gay and lesbian people are like that'.

The same for Muslims, christians or any fucking single group, religion, any sort of interest etc.

This was not an attack, not at all.

Except gamer’s are suckers and play into the giant corporations’ hands by giving themselves special titles or ranks associated with PAYING FOR VIDEO GAMES.

I’m sorry but people who call themselves “gamers” need to take a step back and look at the real world.

Play games, sure.
Don’t give yourself a stupid title to wear with pride, just because you support capitalism.