Horde lost in the Battle for the Undercity

[Gelannerai]

Was Undercity really even habitable by anyone but the Forsaken anyway?

[Qualia]

Was Undercity really even habitable by anyone but the Forsaken anyway?

Technically, yes. It's a really unpleasant place to live in, but non-Forsaken can live in it.

[Dolus]

Lol, the Alliance didn't win at Undercity. If anything, it was a draw. We executed a "scorched earth policy." The Horde tapped dat Alliance ass at Teldrassil, though. I'm still cooking my smores on this big ole tree over here.

[turboether]

TFW an old orc and Jaina ex machina were the only things preventing the Alliance from being 4D chess'd out of five faction leaders.

[Ton00]

No one wins ally vs horde due to irl $$$$ to be made cant piss off either side

[Jastall]

Except the Alliance didn't "force" Sylvanas to destroy her own home. She decided that on her own as a trap for the Alliance. As for "heavy losses"? I'm pretty sure the Alliance suffered more than the Horde did in that battle, casualty-wise.

The Alliance can also afford to lose more troops, I'd wager. Canonically I'm pretty sure there are more humans alone than Orcs, Darkspear and Taurens combined. Forsaken are probably more numerous, but they lost an important reanimation center.

And planning to lose your city is still losing your city. Sylvanas being smug about it doesn't mean the Horde wasn't drive off lots of territory that it used to control, lost a city, lost a good amount of troops, and lost a top commander.

The comparison I've seen made with Moscow's burning during Napoleon's campaign would be an apt one... except that Napoleon had to retreat after said events due to scarce supplies. The Alliance has no such problem and keeps pushing into Forsaken territory after the battle. So the scorched earth tactic only partially worked; it denied the Alliance a stronghold form which the Horde could probably not have dislodged them and keeps the battle from being an important moral victory, but did not slow down the enemy's advance by a significant margin.

Also, the bomb was obviously a last resort. Sylvanas deployed the Azerite tank, then the Blight, then used the chokepoint inside the city, and finally the bomb once everyone had been evacuated and the Alliance had taken the field. The ideal scenario was not destroying the Undercity, but driving the Alliance off. For the Alliance, the ideal scenario was taking Lordaeron, not having it be a blighted no-man's-land. Neither side achieved an ideal outcome, but the Alliance took territory and developed their advance from there. As such, they won. Really the only difference is that Sylvanas had plans B, C and D while Anduin's plan basically amounted to LEEEROOY JEEEENKINS.

[Ielenia]

So, if someone plan is to lose, does that mean it's victory for them? lol
Horde lost to the Alliance in that battle, they were overwhelmed, they didn't have any chances. That's the reason why they ran away.
It doesn't matter if it was part of the plan. It's just a simple thing - they lost the city, and that what really matters.
As I wrote above, it was a necessary sacrifice to win the war. But it was a loss still.

She knew full well that holding onto Undercity just wouldn't be feasible in the long run, now that she declared all-out war against the Alliance. It wasn't Sylvanas' plan to lose. Her plan was to incur heavy losses to the Alliance, and deny them taking Undercity. She succeeded in both.

It's called setting up a trap. And the trap succeeded.

Uhm... a big part of the Lordaeron is now Alliance. They got what they wanted.
They didn't kill Sylvanas, sure. But she didn't kill them also. They escaped.

The zone of Tirisfal Glades may be under Alliance control, but the Undercity and, by proxy, the castle of Lordaeron, are not. The whole thing is blighted to oblivion, which was Sylvanas' goal: to deny them access to her city, and probably all the secrets she and her forsaken had left in the city.

Blighting was a part C of that scenario in case of LOSING. Sylvanas knew that Horde is going to LOSE that fight. That's the reason why they used Blight in the Undercity.

It's called "setting up a trap". Sylvanas basically controlled the flow of the fight from the get-go.

[Eazy]

She knew full well that holding onto Undercity just wouldn't be feasible in the long run

Why? Because Sylvanas knew that she is going to lose. Otherwise she'll just stay in her home. But she couldn't because Alliance was too strong.

It's called "setting up a trap". Sylvanas basically controlled the flow of the fight from the get-go.

Especially when Jaina appeared.

Trap worked indeed, Horde killed plenty of Alliance soldiers... Nonetheless, Horde still lost the battle. Alliance army overwhelmed them.

[Gelannerai]

Technically, yes. It's a really unpleasant place to live in, but non-Forsaken can live in it.

What other beings have lived there? I know Garrosh had Kor’kron stationed there, but aside from that?

[Qualia]

What other beings have lived there? I know Garrosh had Kor’kron stationed there, but aside from that?

There were human prisoners who later on were turned into experiment subjects or killed. If they can live there in captivity, I believe they can live there normally as well.

[pyro989898]

No side own the battle .
Did Horde retreat from battle ? True
Alliance attacked with intent to capture and take back Lordaeron(unlike Sylvanas plan for Teldrassil) but with blight uses the place is inhabitable for Alliance. So till blight is removed from Lordaeron , Alliance also didn't won the battle.

[J012D4N]

Blizzard didn't overlook anything. I believe it's you who overlooked that Blizzard have said that the RPG books - all of them - are non canon since forever (quoting their answer in regards to those books, "No. The RPG books were created to provide an engaging table-top role-playing experience, which sometimes required diverging from the established video game canon. Blizzard helped generate a great deal of the content within the RPG books, so there will be times when ideas from the RPG will make their way into the game and official lore, but you are much better off considering the RPG books non-canonical unless otherwise stated").

In other words, all figures you mentioned mean nothing in canonical lore as they haven't been stated anywhere else other than the RPG book.

I realize that RPG documentation could be non-canon, which is why in a previous post I jokingly listed those population numbers as "fact" (as in, according to the books). Even with that said, it's the only reasonable thing published on population numbers. Some fan's actually think it's higher, like by ALOT, as seen below. Old forum debate.
https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17614573148
I mean, Teldrassil having <1000 people (civilian/guards) is a joke. Essentially would mean that the NE's were already going extinct prior.
Q/A at BlizzCon inc.

[TheRagebear]

TFW an old orc and Jaina ex machina were the only things preventing the Alliance from being 4D chess'd out of five faction leaders.

The Alliance leaders were never in any danger, Sylvanas' "plan" sucked. If she had planned all along to lure Anduin & Co. into the deathtrap in the throne room why would she have employed the Blight to push them back in the first place? If they had no way to clear the Blight the worst that would have happened was that they'd have to wait for it to disperse or go home. Without Jaina they never make it to the throne room and with her they're in no danger.

The only reason Sylvanas seems like a 4D chessmaster is because characters' personalities are warped in her presence to make her seem more cunning than she is. She's laying cartoonishly obvious traps that even outside observers can see coming from space and (while I'll give than Anduin, lacking experience might not see it, the impeccable Sue that he is ) I find it unusual that literally no one else does.

[Ielenia]

Why? Because Sylvanas knew that she is going to lose. Otherwise she'll just stay in her home. But she couldn't because Alliance was too strong.

And yet she still won the battle by completely denying the Alliance both of their objectives: capture Undercity and Sylvanas.

Especially when Jaina appeared.

Yes. Even after Jaina showed up. Did you even play the scenario at all?

[Mehrunes]

If Arathi is the key to that path, yet it hasn't happened yet, then it isn't exactly the case after Battle for Lordaeron that happens before Arathi, is it now?

No. It's not a win. Necessary sacrifices are not wins. They're loses.
If you plan losing, you're losing.
I don't care if it was for the greater good, or the Horde has bigger scheme. This battle they lost.

If you plan on turning something into a trap, you don't consider that trap to be planning on losing.


[QUOTE=Eazy;49926605]That's a cowards thinking - "If I let them win, I win". That's the thing you do when you have no chances to win and you're just trying to justify your position.

But she didn't let them win. She prevented them from fulfilling either of their two objectives during that battle.

They lost city.
The trap didn't work.
They did retreat.

They were retreating from the get go. The trap still killed everyone still in the ruins other than Anduin, Genn, Jaina and Alleria.

If not for using Blight the Horde would be dead there in a few hours.

And unlike Jaina's perfect, yet unplanned timing or the Blight suddenly stopping working during the skirmish led by Nathanos for no reason, Forsaken having Blight wasn't an asspull, but a canon fact since WotLK. Also, if the fight was logical, according to the information about factions' fleets from A Good War, Alliance shouldn't have been able to even land their army and the entire force would sleep with the fish by now.

If Jaina froze the Sylvanas the moment they entered the Throne room(just as she did in the battle for the undercity before in the wotlk) she'd be dead.
If Alleria and Genn didn't let Anduin talk with Sylvanas but attack her immediately, she would be dead.

In WotLK Jaina didn't participate in the fight until that moment and as such her interference was an unexpected outcome. It wouldn't have been the case here. What's faster, opening the doors and casting a spell or screaming?

[Eazy]

And yet she still won the battle by completely denying the Alliance both of their objectives: capture Undercity and Sylvanas.

That wasn't won.

Tell me, who won - Greeks or Persians in the Battle of the Thermopylae?

Yes. Even after Jaina showed up. Did you even play the scenario at all?

She couldn't have that planned because even Anduin didn't know about it. So that's a false.

If Arathi is the key to that path, yet it hasn't happened yet, then it isn't exactly the case after Battle for Lordaeron that happens before Arathi, is it now?

They made Horde leave their battle-posts, they made them evacuate plenty of their army from the Eastern Kingdom. They opened the way for the Alliance.

If you plan on turning something into a trap, you don't consider that trap to be planning on losing.

Yes, only if you stay and catch the prey.

If the trap isn't working and you're forced to run away because overwhelming force is still alive - that's a lose.

But she didn't let them win. She prevented them from fulfilling either of their two objectives during that battle.

See above.

They were retreating from the get go. The trap still killed everyone still in the ruins other than Anduin, Genn, Jaina and Alleria.

Too bad they didn't kill rest of them... I'm wondering why?... Probably because they didn't have chances, so they ran away.

And unlike Jaina's perfect, yet unplanned timing or the Blight suddenly stopping working during the skirmish led by Nathanos for no reason, Forsaken having Blight wasn't an asspull, but a canon fact since WotLK. Also, if the fight was logical, according to the information about factions' fleets from A Good War, Alliance shouldn't have been able to even land their army and the entire force would sleep with the fish by now.

I didn't say that was an asspull. Jaina attack wasn't an asspull also. We've seen her summoning that ship from the depths of the sea in the Warbringers.

But as I said, we're not discussing here what's an asspull and what if. We're discussing facts.

In WotLK Jaina didn't participate in the fight until that moment and as such her interference was an unexpected outcome. It wouldn't have been the case here. What's faster, opening the doors and casting a spell or screaming?

What if she started to cast the spell before they entered.
What if she casted the spell on the building even without entering it?

But if you want to talk about "what it" and made up situations, then Alleria should've just let her arrow hit Warchief. I'm pretty sure it'd be much faster than both screaming and casting a spell. Because both took time in that cinematic.

[nothingsjim]

There's no argument that Horde lost in the Siege of Lordaeron, however, I feel that Blizzard managed to show Anduin's lack of experience brilliantly.

1. Not preparing against Blight: The siege, as per Anduin's own word, would have been for nothing if it wasn't deus ex Jaina and her ghost ship.
2. Walk straight into a bigger, strong army: In the Undercity courtyard. Anduin walked straight into the Horde's superior forces with his meager army, and is ready to die (In fact, he would have died) if it wasn't deus ex Alleria and the reinforcements she brings.
3. Confronting Sylvanas and almost got four Alliance high-command killed.

It would be wonderful to see him grow and mature in the battlefield. I wonder, who would be Anduin's ideal battlefield mentor? My vote goes to Turalyon.

[Deleted]

Ruins of lordaeron arena need update now ?

[delus]

At the end Sylvanas weakened the morale of horde leadership, killed her own troops with blight and destroyed her own city in a failed trap.

[Divada]

It would be wonderful to see him grow and mature in the battlefield. I wonder, who would be Anduin's ideal battlefield mentor? My vote goes to Turalyon.

They should sit him down and make him read everything about Lei Shen's battlefield tactics.