Calia Menethil, the Desolate Council and the future of Lordaeron

[Nyel]

Calia was rallying folks in the open shouting to head for stromgarde to seek Anduin's protection... this was the triggering event that set Sylvanas into action.

Didn't all of this happen after Sylvanas blew the horn and initiated the retreat + her dark rangers flying above them? I remember Parqual approaching Calia and then Calia trying to persuade Elsie but Calia shouting started after Sylvanas made her turn if I'm correct. I just read it 3 hours ago but I'm not so sure about the sequence it took place.

And where was the Council involved... at all? Again, who was defecting at first place? Emma's three sons and Parqual? I mean seriously, those 4 guys are a threat to Sylvanas? Wasn't even clear if anyone besides Parqual really tried to defect before Sylvanas went full mass murder.

[Steampunkette]

1. There is no coup attempt, there never was. Elsie (Vellcinda) was maybe the most innocent of them all and she's been the Prime Governor of the Council. The only one that seems to be involved in this was Parqual which is understandable due to his love for his daughter. But coup? None of them wanted to overthrow Sylvanas' reign or did I miss something?

1. Parqual took Philia to talk to the other members of the Desolate Council on the field (Except Elsie) when he decided he was going to defect and told Calia it was time. Calia herself realized that they were all defecting, and told Elsie Benton to follow her, Calia Menethil. This is a coup. A small one, but a coup.

2. Sylvanas did not know Calia was there until the Dark Ranger told her as much -after- she realized that Parqual and the others were defecting. Since Anduin had arranged the whole thing with the Desolate Council -and- brought Calia to the field, she thought it was a coup attempt by Anduin and sent the Dark Rangers to kill everyone.

3. It was only after the Dark Rangers had started killing everyone that she realized that Calia was acting alone, rather than being a puppet of Anduin.

2. Few were defecting. Sylvanas started the mass murder before there was evidence for defection. That the Forsaken would start to run after they see their brethren being killed by their "mother" seems plausible to me.

1. Sylvanas blew the horn when she suspected defection. Then the dark ranger told her that Calia was on the field. Then Nathanos asked for orders. Between the horn being blown and the Dark Rangers taking off to go after the Desolate Council there was time to tell whether someone was running toward Stromgarde or Thoradin.

2. 5 out of 12 were actively defecting -after- the Horn was blown that we -know- of. Parqual, the Felstones, and Tomas are all shown explicitly from Anduin's viewpoint as running toward Stromgarde.

3. Some number between 1 and 7 were running back towards Thoradin's Wall, but we're never told how many are running in which direction.

3. She still could have caught them. There was no need to go full mass murder. I mean she had everything set up there to effectively seize them. She chose to kill them instead. And that's not evil?

1. When she issued the order it looked like it was a pre-arranged defection with Anduin Wrynn manipulating her into letting the Desolate Council defect. Anduin had been in contact with the Desolate Council Members. He also pre-approved which priests from the Netherlight Temple would aid on the fields of Arathi.

2. Had she tried to sieze them, and it was Anduin's defection/coup plan, the Alliance would've been trying to stop her from doing so and they were RIGHT THERE.

3. Killing her own people, but not the humans, ensures that there is no war.

We're never told how many DC members Parqual talked to. But we're shown that none of them report his intention to defect. And other than Elsie, we're never told if any of the others truly -are- Loyal to Sylvanas. For all we know, the other 6 that we can't account for -were- defectors, some of whom ran towards Thoradin's Wall out of fear of being caught. And even if they weren't, they were abetting defectors by not reporting their actions. Calia, after all, recognized that "All the others" were defecting, surely they could've noticed as well.

After all... even Sylvanas noticed from far away.

[Nyel]

I mean even Nathanos was somehow shocked by Sylvanas' actions. This should be alone an indicator for how mad she's become.

[Steampunkette]

You fail to understand that everything of that happened 1. before the gathering, 2. before several Humans realized that Forsaken are not necessarily evil (hello Genn) and 3. before Calia stepped onto the floor, was killed and then resurrected by the Light as some Human Undead Holy Being whatever. And I'd even add 4. before it was obvious to the Alliance how cruel Sylvanas is even towards her own people.

Blizzard perfectly set up everything to give Alliance - if not as allied race - some kind of Forsaken faction under the lead of Calia in Lordaeron. Why would they've done all of this if not with the further plan to install a new Forsaken faction that's leading towards Alliance?

Your post is formatted very badly and I'm going to try to make sense of it...

1) Yes. Before the Gathering the majority of the populace would rather see their undead loved ones dead.
2) One human, Turalyon, and only because he uses the Light to mystically search Faol. Genn's not a human. Both of them have insights the VAST MAJORITY of people don't.
3) Again has nothing to do with anything. Calia being raised as a new undead person doesn't impact people wanting to murder their own family right in front of Sylvanas.
4) TITANIC "Meh" to this one, since that 'cruelty' is easily debatable between cruelty or pragmatism in dealing with people who have broken a law. Further, it's being spun in different directions with Anduin trying to use Calia to make a coup against Sylvanas. Plenty of people on hearing the tale would think the same.

I mean even Nathanos was somehow shocked by Sylvanas' actions. This should be alone an indicator for how mad she's become.

Nathanos was surprised, absolutely. But when she explained her logic he calmed the fuck down and accepted it 'cause... GASP! Sylvanas was right? Terrible, deplorable, and violently unethical... but right?

Which is something Saurfang thinks a lot in A Good War.

[Malikath]

Didn't all of this happen after Sylvanas blew the horn and initiated the retreat + her dark rangers flying above them? I remember Parqual approaching Calia and then Calia trying to persuade Elsie but Calia shouting started after Sylvanas made her turn if I'm correct. I just read it 3 hours ago but I'm not so sure about the sequence it took place.

And where was the Council involved... at all? Again, who was defecting at first place? Emma's three sons and Parqual? I mean seriously, those 4 guys are a threat to Sylvanas? Wasn't even clear if anyone besides Parqual really tried to defect before Sylvanas went full mass murder.

yes, yes it did.
now you understand how delusional sylvanus fanbois get.
they think the reaction to the event, caused it.

keep in mind, this isn't the only case of defectors from the forsaken, there's a rather vocal critic of sylvanus in one of the EPL watchtowers.

[Nyel]

Your post is formatted very badly and I'm going to try to make sense of it...

1) Yes. Before the Gathering the majority of the populace would rather see their undead loved ones dead.
2) One human, Turalyon, and only because he uses the Light to mystically search Faol. Genn's not a human. Both of them have insights the VAST MAJORITY of people don't.
3) Again has nothing to do with anything. Calia being raised as a new undead person doesn't impact people wanting to murder their own family right in front of Sylvanas.
4) TITANIC "Meh" to this one, since that 'cruelty' is easily debatable between cruelty or pragmatism in dealing with people who have broken a law. Further, it's being spun in different directions with Anduin trying to use Calia to make a coup against Sylvanas. Plenty of people on hearing the tale would think the same.

1. We don't know how it is now, as I already said.

2. Human, Worgen, doesn't make a difference. Out of all Genn and the Worgen maybe have the "best" reasons to hate them and even he acknowledged that not all of them are evil. If Genn can, everybody else can.

3. Sure it does if you consider all of the grief and history of Lordaeron, Arthas and the Scourge. Pretty sure if the former princess of Lordaeron has been chosen by the Light to come back as an Undead many can be convinced that there is still good in (some) Forsaken.

4. Debatable for Horde maybe, not so much for Alliance. I doubt that any of the Alliance races has sympathy towards Sylvanas even when she's just been killing potential traitors.

[mickybrighteyes]

Didn't all of this happen after Sylvanas blew the horn and initiated the retreat + her dark rangers flying above them? I remember Parqual approaching Calia and then Calia trying to persuade Elsie but Calia shouting started after Sylvanas made her turn if I'm correct. I just read it 3 hours ago but I'm not so sure about the sequence it took place.

the retreat was sounded when Calia was spotted with her hood down talking to Elsie. Sylvanas took to the air with her archers after spotting Calia. Calia shouting might have happened after she confronted Elsie, but she ad taken her hood off and was visible to Sylvanas and her rangers. Note that some forsaken were already beginning their trek to Stromgarde by the time Calia was talking to Elise.

And where was the Council involved... at all? Again, who was defecting at first place? Emma's three sons and Parqual? I mean seriously, those 4 guys are a threat to Sylvanas? Wasn't even clear if anyone besides Parqual really tried to defect before Sylvanas went full mass murder.

again... I wasn't saying that the council was directly responsible for Calia's actions (i say this in second second in the reply you pulled this quote from). I say the council is the main reason the event, that is to say the meeting between forsaken and humans, ever happened. As to those 4 guys being a threat? They're among the leading politcal party running the Forsaken in Sylvanas' absence. So really this council was already perceived as a threat (note the repeated references to putress and the royal apothecary society between Sylvanas and Nathanos). It was clear that Parqual and the 3 brothers were already making their moves it was unclear about their various motives.

[Hugnomo]

Actually, I thought the meeting was the more enjoyable and entertaining part of the book. I loved the Desolate Council.
Yes, I think Calia will have her own group of light undead. No reason to give her such a spotlight and unique condition. I think it'll be linked to the revamp to Uther's tomb.
And yes, Sylvanas comes across as pure evil.

I guess the only thing I don't like is that the only Forsaken that were developed and that I empathized with would align with the Alliance, leaving the Forsaken horde ones as somewhat the evil ones. Don't think I like that. : /

[Nyel]

I say the council is the main reason the event, that is to say the meeting between forsaken and humans, ever happened.

How so? The Council didn't come up with the idea. It was Anduin after Wyll passed away. I think it was rather a coincidence that he found Elsie and then tried to initiate some kind of reunion. The Council neither planned this nor to overthrow Sylvanas, that's why I very much doubt that it was a real threat to her. Even after all they were cheerishing for her Queen.

- - - Updated - - -

I guess the only thing I don't like is that the only Forsaken that were developed and that I empathized with would align with the Alliance, leaving the Forsaken horde ones as somewhat the evil ones. Don't think I like that. : /

I don't like it either. Horde is portrayed quite negatively due to Sylvanas although I think Horde is far from being evil in its core. As I said, Sylvanas at this point is even worse than Garrosh and on top of that has no honor.

[mickybrighteyes]

How so? The Council didn't come up with the idea. It was Anduin after Wyll passed away. I think it was rather a coincidence that he found Elsie and then tried to initiate some kind of reunion.

The council seemed to make more effort in planning their side of the event with Sylvanas more showing up to oversee. We see Anduin putting in his share trying to make sure things happen. Can't forget that Sylvanas would have immediately veto'd the whole event if not for the insistence of the council.

The Council neither planned this nor to overthrow Sylvanas, that's why I very much doubt that it was a real threat to her. Even after all they were cheerishing for her Queen.

the council arguably had more control over the undercity than the RAS did during Wrath era... also given that Sylvanas wasn't present this would liekly be even more accurate. Overall, we don't know the exact plans of the council as a whole. We don't see much of them beyond Elsie. Maybe a name of 3 and a few extra lines of dialogue, but that is all.

[Steampunkette]

1. We don't know how it is now, as I already said.

2. Human, Worgen, doesn't make a difference. Out of all Genn and the Worgen maybe have the "best" reasons to hate them and even he acknowledged that not all of them are evil. If Genn can, everybody else can.

3. Sure it does if you consider all of the grief and history of Lordaeron, Arthas and the Scourge. Pretty sure if the former princess of Lordaeron has been chosen by the Light to come back as an Undead many can be convinced that there is still good in (some) Forsaken.

4. Debatable for Horde maybe, not so much for Alliance. I doubt that any of the Alliance races has sympathy towards Sylvanas even when she's just been killing potential traitors.

1. We don't know how it is, now, but have little reason to believe that anything is changed. Like. VERY little.

2. Bullshit. The Gilneans were spared the Scourge War. They might have more reason to hate Sylvanas (Which is mostly misattributed Garrosh/Horde hate outside of Genn himself) but the humans of Stormwind watched the Scourge, of which the Forsaken are a splinter-group who split off politically and geographically, consume the great human kingdoms of the Eastern Kingdoms. And consume is a fairly literal term, here. Anduin himself acknowledges that Sylvanas's diplomats were killed because Stormwind didn't know the forsaken were any different from Arthas's Scourge. The Gilneans have far FEWER reasons to hate the Forsaken than the humans of Stormwind.

3. Former Princess of Lordaeron is UNDEAD not Forsaken. The Forsaken were created by the Burning Legion and are powered by necromantic power. Calia is a Light-Imbued undead being. For most humans there's a MASSIVE GULF between the Light blessing someone with a new life and the Demons raising hordes of undead monsters to eat your family. And that's if they're even AWARE of it. There's nothing that shows us the populace of Stormwind has a clue of what's happened to Calia.

4. You don't have to have sympathy toward Sylvanas to read "Killed potential traitors" and shrug your shoulders about that idea being appropriate or at least not evil, depending on your perspective. Plus those potential traitors were all Forsaken, and 93% of humans hate Forsaken and at least 51% would be happy to kill their own forsaken family members. So who cares?

[baskev]

I just finished reading Before the Storm and it offered some insights on how and why we have the faction war started with the Burning of Teldrassil. Without the book the storyline in game doesn't make any sense but the novel gave some nice background infos on what was happening before that.

Although the book had lengths and the focus on the meeting of the Forsaken and Humans in Arathi Highlands was quite... tedious to read it offers some potential future storylines that could be explored:

Will Calia Menethil return to Lordaeron and become Queen of the Alliance Forsaken? It looks like that, doesn't it? And retaking Undercity was just the first step.

And how the hell can somebody consider Sylvanas to not be evil when she's murdering her own people, her children, Forsaken that "rebel" against her vicious reign? I mean seriously, the book just further proofed that Sylvanas is totally out of control, insane, pure evil.

Right now...its anyones guess.
They make sylvannas go arthas+garrosh + every other bad guy crazy. But they say they have a reason for . So i really do not know.

But i doubt it. Most alliance allied races suck and we do not get cool things...so i doubt it.

[Nyel]

The council seemed to make more effort in planning their side of the event with Sylvanas more showing up to oversee. We see Anduin putting in his share trying to make sure things happen. Can't forget that Sylvanas would have immediately veto'd the whole event if not for the insistence of the council.
the council arguably had more control over the undercity than the RAS did during Wrath era... also given that Sylvanas wasn't present this would liekly be even more accurate. Overall, we don't know the exact plans of the council as a whole. We don't see much of them beyond Elsie. Maybe a name of 3 and a few extra lines of dialogue, but that is all.

What did they plan? The event was completely initiated by Anduin and not the Council. The only thing the Council could basically do was create a list of people that they'd like to meet. If they planned on escaping they could have done it otherwise.

Imho there's exactly no evidence that the Council planned anything coup-alike (or anything at all).

What kind of control did they have in UC though? They just filled the whole Sylvanas (deliberately) left open. They didn't do politics, they just "managed" the city.

[Niaraa]

If she was a murderous sociopath she would've killed the humans gathered there too. She honored her word and killed only the potential rotten apples in her own courtyard. She also didn't do anything during the first meeting. She acted only when Calia appeared during the second meeting and tried to talk and bring back some of the Desolate Council back with her.

plot twist, she also could have refuse anduin meeting in first place. i suspect she accept this to see who are deviant and kill them. forseaken ways!
one thing interest me more does the Council still a thing since the destruction of Lordaeron? if yes will they challenge sylvanas and do some politics?

[Deleted]

OPs next thread, "omg, turns out goblins are greedy!"

[PenguinChan]

plot twist, she also could have refuse anduin meeting in first place. i suspect she accept this to see who are deviant and kill them. forseaken ways!

With the suggestions of the council, Anduin, and more importantly, Nathanos, she went with it because in any way, shape, or form - she would look good to her people. No matter how the events transpired, she ended up with a net positive from this gathering. She could've had them questioned in different ways and offed them in different events, Sylvanas didn't really care the means to the end.

I mean even Nathanos was somehow shocked by Sylvanas' actions. This should be alone an indicator for how mad she's become.

Nathanos continues to be shocked but kneels like a good boy for her, as a faithful lover always seems to do. I doubt she could do anything to make him disobedient or wary, honestly.

[mickybrighteyes]

What did they plan? The event was completely initiated by Anduin and not the Council. The only thing the Council could basically do was create a list of people that they'd like to meet. If they planned on escaping they could have done it otherwise.

So the list of people present were either there at the request of the council of Anduin. So if something pops off we have a very short list of people to look to for answers.. the council or Anduin, is this a logical conclusion?

What kind of control did they have in UC though? They just filled the whole Sylvanas (deliberately) left open. They didn't do politics, they just "managed" the city.

Sylvanas...the absolute ruler of the Undercity left a void... which was filled by the council. please remember what Sylvanas' role was that the council was trying to fill in her absence.

[Deleted]

Seems the book disagrees with you. Genn and Anduin see the Forsaken are former Lordaeron citizens, and are willing to accept them as long as their leader is pro-Alliance.

you are wrong Genn doesnt, he wants them all dead dead.

[PenguinChan]

you are wrong Genn doesnt, he wants them all dead dead.

I think Blizzard's word, officially endorsed book that was written under their supervision > Any single persons opinion

Like, at the end of the book Genn says he was wrong about the Forsaken and that there are good apples in the bunch of neutral / bad ones. He wants Sylvanas dead, and because of that - he hated the Forsaken as well and thought them abominations. He sees clearer now due to Anduin, which was sort of the entire purpose of the book - to humanize the Forsaken.

[Nyel]

Does it seem to be some kind of analogy that

Arthas Menethil killed Sylvanas Windrunner -> Sylvanas then was resurrected by the "Dark"

(Dark) Sylvanas Windrunner killed Calia Menethil -> Calia then was resurrected by the "Light"

Wouldn't be surprised if Calia is going to somehow dethrone and kill Sylvanas (at least formally, not in an open battle).